1) Congrats, you have a FL with more hp. No utility. Completely useless.
2) Sure. TTO 18 is huge.
3) And you are what is wrong with the other side, people that need to be spoonfed kills and overpowered abilities to be able to win vs nonupgraded skulks. 3/3 JP SG and you still die? "PLS GIEF HEAVY ARMORZZ JPS SKULKS OP". There are alternative views beyond pandering to your crying for ez-kills agenda and disguising it as "fun". There are still people that enjoy besting other teams based on actual skill, even if we are dwindling in numbers.
1) flamer on one arm and minigun/rail/welder on the other.. A lot more than a FL with more hp... Far from useless.
2) what?? What's TTO? Is that an 18 player server? Cause that would be only 9 oni there...
3) Fun =/= ez kills... How nice of you to go off in this tangent and even further prove my point. That you instantly see wanting to make the game more fun as "crying for ez kills"... That's just sad.
You're displaying a very elitist and closed minded competitive view here...
I don't understand the argument that balance =/= fun.
If you make gorge tunnels accessible anywhere for "fun" then you inevitably get OP spots. It might be fun for you on aliens, but it gets boring very quickly on marines because you can't do much about it. So on marines it just becomes incredibly unfun and you will inevitable play both sides.
If you balance for balance sake and skill then the fun comes from being better. I understand the want to not homogenize the game but that's why we have different lifeforms with different mechanics and different weapons for different purposes.
Keeping in tone with that, atmosphere and lights I'm in favour of because heck, I want it to look cool when I do cool stuff. The issue is when the engine is so poor and performance is massively affected that skill isn't what matters but simply how good your computer is. It wasn't long ago when the competitive community was lambasted for simply having better equipment thus giving them an edge.
Some people just can't get 50 frags in a game because they can't play lerks and fades at a level high enough to do so and I'm sorry, but I don't want to see lifeforms buffed just so we have an "everybody's a winner" attitude. If you really want to be a winner, you have to put in the effort or find something you're good at.
Onos pop a problem? Make onos cost more or give marines a weapon to combat onos. (hmg should fill this role but it doesn't)
And how does that affect minute 13 - X where marines might be pushing hard and aliens are waiting for their saving grace onos?
And how does buffing a weapon that deals with onos, affect marine combat vs skulks/lerks/fades/PvE?
You end up with ludicrous ripple effects and a buffing spiral until everything one hits each other, and even then the more skilled players will come out more often on top because they have faster reactions and better decision making capacities.
Yeah just ignore how i mentioned they should balance anything found to be op...
But this is the issue. For some reason you've managed to take and hold a very egocentric ground based on BALANCE THINGS FOR MY FUN, BUT DON'T LET IT BE OP. Do you understand how ridiculous this is? How on earth can you balance a game around someone with 1397 hive points and expect the 4k players not to wreck you.
The point of balance is to ensure 2 things
The game is accessible to everyone (Everyone should be able to contribute)
The game is not abusable to high skilled players (There should be significant challenge in achieving something such that no one can steam roll)
You've just got to appreciate the simple fact that everything you can do, I can do better.
How hard is it to grasp the concept of only restricting tunnels from op spots... Has anyone ever even bothered to look at how much of each map is "off limits" to tunnels?
Hell some of the custom maps have entire rooms where you can't place a tunnel due to how they're restricted...
You can literally only place them out in the most obvious open spots. Which is part of the reason dropping one anywhere other than a rt gets you bitched at..
As far as buffing a weapon for onos without it becoming op against lower life forms.. Umm gee i dunno maybe a different damage type like heavy? Maybe have onos take double damage from a certain weapon like the hmg or a railgun.
But of course you also read my post as "make things fun/easy for me" which continues to highlight what's wrong with this community...
Because I'd like more fun mechanics (like welding vents or building barricades) that must automatically mean i just want it easy...
You even looked up my hive score in some lame attempt to discredit me... So sad.
I have to agree that they have killed some of the fun and atmosphere in the name of balance...
I kind of think we're on the same page, but this very sentence is what confuses people. I don't think you believe this, I think you're trying to say that things went too far? Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to misrepresent you.
Another more recent example is atmospheric territories.. That was a great addition that was rejected because it supposedly ruined balance...
I could be wrong but I think the main problem was that one single cyst in a room affected all the lights so it had disproportionate effects. Couple that with the undying cysts now and I think it is a recipe for disaster. Although I do like the concept myself if only the lights more localised to the cyst/infestation were affected.
I'm of the mindset that we could use more fun abilities and weapons to mix things up.. Stuff like devour (from combat not ns1) lerk lift, rail gun rifles, flamethrowers and welders for exos, allow exos to pick each weapon/arm independently...
I agreed with you here in my post. I think all of us want to see more features that are fun. I also think none of us (Including you) want to see features like ridiculously OP gorge tunnels. It's a question of being able to appropriately balance new features and their ripple effects.
If every game is a long back and forth struggle with everyone having fun, then who cares if marines/aliens win more.. Balance won't matter as much..
Well this is what balance is... The ability to make skills and features accessible to everyone without being abusable so that the more skilled players win, not just a rock-paper-scissor determination. If you're talking about creating features so that there could be more phases in the game and thus more frequent power swings between factions then I think that could be a good thing too!
How hard is it to grasp the concept of only restricting tunnels from op spots... Has anyone ever even bothered to look at how much of each map is "off limits" to tunnels?
I think unfortunately you're in a minority who care about the restriction of gorge tunnel placement. IMO gorge tunnels are in a good place (with the exception of starting alien pres).
What are your thoughts on compmod gorge movement and giving gorges more movement freedom so they can be more engaging in combat (and imo more fun)?
You even looked up my hive score in some lame attempt to discredit me... So sad.
Eh well you were throwing your toys out of your pram because you were coming across as holding this bizarre position that balance means you can't have fun because it's not balanced in your eyes for your needs (read: gorge tunnel)
1) I don't see what about that sentence is confusing... They removed some of the fun and atmosphere with how they chose to balance the game... I don't know if they took things too far... it just seems like they just took the easy/lazy way out with some things (like tunnels)
2) Shades aren't all that sneaky because
a. Commander has to agree to drop or echo the shade
b. Commander has to have enough res for the shade
c. You have to build the shade if the comm doesn't echo it in, which is a lot more time spent building and making noise to draw marine attention
d. Since tunnels can only be placed out in the open, any Marine passing by is pretty much guaranteed to hear the change in their footsteps as they pass over the infestation.
An example of a tunnel location I used to use a lot would be under the walkway outside of water pumps on Mineshaft... It was out of the way and hidden, yet it could be revealed easily (via scan or observant Marine) and killed (because Marines can both shoot and/or climb down there easily)
3) All I know is atmospheric territories came out, everyone pitched a huge fit because it "ruined balance" then shortly after that it's gone... It was a great addition to the game.
4) Yes I am in a minority about tunnels and I know that... It's not that I think they're unbalanced, I can agree they're in a good place other than the starting pres... They're just boring and bland, I don't like using tunnels anymore because they feel like a waste of res. Especially since the only "good" place to put them is near res nodes, where they are the first thing targeted by attacking Marines.
5) Throwing toys?? out of my pram??? what?!? O...k... moving on... I never meant to imply that balance means you can't have fun.. Fun is simply more important than balance. Which game would you want to play?
a) A game that is a blast to play, but isn't perfectly balanced.
b) A game that is boring as hell, but balance is completely perfect.
I also never said the game wasn't balanced... (although currently it's not.. it favors aliens)
Sneaky gorge tunnels is one of the most unfun parts of the game for both teams...
And you want more stupid places where to hide them?
Yes, that would be superfun and fair to marines. Because a marine team which is playing perfectly then needs their commander to scan every millimeter of the map to find a tunnel in a stupid position (like some of the regions of mineshaft that you are crying about)
Marines are playing perfectly and lane-blocking? who cares, lets have a stupid sneaky tunnel and resbite the whole map from there or make a base rush. Lets send all our players over and over again trying to build that stupid tunnel, which is superfun for both teams
I find so sad that so many people refuse to learn how to play aliens properly and instead they only care about sneaky tunnels to rush. The same people that cry in every match about balancing the teams, because they don't even realize that they are being hard carried by 1 or 2 players every single game just because they refuse to learn the basics.
and yes, now "fun" is more important than "balance" and yet I hear people crying over "unbalanced teams" everytime they lose
Please stop with the "OMG your what's wrong with the world" statements. It's like reading a copy-paste insult from a Facebook argument. You have different ideas of how to play the game, ok. It's not "toxic" and "elitist" to say gorge tunnel rushes are basically cheese plays, because 99% of the time they pretty much are.
They are almost always last-ditch attempts by an alien team that played like idiots for the first 10 minutes - sacrificing map control, res, and playing team deathmatch instead of biting RTs - to turn it all around and 'win' in a "LOL sorry you didn't have 30 res for scans marine comm", moment. Then they can all go to the ready room and "gg" while stroking each other's backs about how "clever" that tunnel was, even though they learned nothing about how to actually play the game. For some people this seems to be the only tactic they know. Like the 4-move checkmate in chess. And when it doesn't work, there isn't any real gameplay knowledge or game sense there to develop another plan. It's just "gg, we tried".
The "learn to play" statements aren't meant as "LOL why aren't you a professional gamer like me". They are meant more literally. Like please, learn to play the game and stop relying on crutches.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Noone said sneaky tunnels are stupid. Tunnels build in positions marines cant reach are stupid.
And Blrg is absolutly right bout the "crying".
Like i said ages ago:
If you want to balance the game for new players just do this:
Give them a wall on there heads as skulk. So they can continue run on the floor into 4 marines and a Aimbot upgrade researchable by the rine com.
And thats why its stupid to balance a game around the lowest skill, so they can have fun.
NS2 has no unlockable stuff like weapons, attachments and the ingame rank is pretty useless.
The only thing you get for playing is experience.
Thats why im playing this game for so long: getting better.
And playing NS2 on an high level with people knowing what they doing was the best experience i ever had in a game.
Its just sad what happened to modern games where people playing only for dumb archivements, skins or whatever.
Developers need to spend so much effort in useless crap cause without that people cant have fun.
Maybe thats why modern games are full of bugs these days, cause 20 developers cant help bugfixing:
They have to work on the "fun"-part of the game.
It's not "toxic" and "elitist" to say gorge tunnel rushes are basically cheese plays, because 99% of the time they pretty much are.
No it's not toxic or elitist TO say that.. What's toxic and elitist is the WAY they said it...
Like the ONLY possible reason to want more freedom in tunnel placement is because I'm a trash player who doesn't know how to play the game.. The ONLY possible thing I could EVER want to use a sneaky tunnel for is a cheesy rush to get a cheap win...
But whatever, it was just meant as an example of how they killed some of the fun in the name of balance... Remove tunnels altogether for all I care.
They are almost always last-ditch attempts by an alien team that played like idiots for the first 10 minutes - sacrificing map control, res, and playing team deathmatch instead of biting RTs - to turn it all around and 'win' in a "LOL sorry you didn't have 30 res for scans marine comm", moment. Then they can all go to the ready room and "gg" while stroking each other's backs about how "clever" that tunnel was, even though they learned nothing about how to actually play the game. For some people this seems to be the only tactic they know. Like the 4-move checkmate in chess. And when it doesn't work, there isn't any real gameplay knowledge or game sense there to develop another plan. It's just "gg, we tried".
The "learn to play" statements aren't meant as "LOL why aren't you a professional gamer like me". They are meant more literally. Like please, learn to play the game and stop relying on crutches.
This pretty much hits the spot. Especially the first part.
Imagine all the fun and joy you will have when that sea of oni(roughly 10) comes crashing down and devours your entire team. Every round. Every time the onos-pop happens. GG. Can't do anything about it. Now you have to finish off the strongest lifeform in the game that has a "IWIN"-button that regs all its armor before it eats you.
If you don't want a 10-Oni pop, raise it's cost back up to 75 again. If ten people can manage to save for that much longer without any other lifeforms, then Marines deserve to lose when the Oni finally come out.
Or restrict it to 3 hives. Remember back when losing a hive mattered and it wouldn't just be rebuilt in 25 seconds?
Marines are playing perfectly and lane-blocking? who cares, lets have a stupid sneaky tunnel and resbite the whole map from there or make a base rush.
Well.. then.. they were neither playing perfectly or lane blocking well enough were they?
Sorry just had to say that. Everything else you said was gold, and I of course am no fan of early game tunnels.
(I don't mind late game since it would be our fault for not foreseeing something so predictable and counter-able.. but I get the soured reception it receives from many)
Sneaky gorge tunnels is one of the most unfun parts of the game for both teams...
And you want more stupid places where to hide them?
I really like how you consider yourself in a position to talk for everybody.
I love sneaky gorge tunnels, I also love sneaky PG rushes, they add optionsto the game, for me that's never a bad thing.
Yes, that would be superfun and fair to marines. Because a marine team which is playing perfectly then needs their commander to scan every millimeter of the map to find a tunnel in a stupid position (like some of the regions of mineshaft that you are crying about)
Just follow where the aliens are coming from? Don't your "perfectly playing, lane covering" Marine team have ears and a minimap? What is their commander doing?
Marines are playing perfectly and lane-blocking? who cares, lets have a stupid sneaky tunnel and resbite the whole map from there or make a base rush. Lets send all our players over and over again trying to build that stupid tunnel, which is superfun for both teams
Aliens are not pushing the lanes and instead chose to flank the Marines: OH THE HORROR! WHY ARE THEY PLAYING THE GAME WRONG?!
I find so sad that so many people refuse to learn how to play aliens properly and instead they only care about sneaky tunnels to rush. The same people that cry in every match about balancing the teams, because they don't even realize that they are being hard carried by 1 or 2 players every single game just because they refuse to learn the basics.
Great sensei, please teach me about the "proper" way of playing alien! Should I announce any dropped gorge tunnels in chat? Wouldn't want to confuse those poor marines too much!
What is the "proper" chamber for the first and second hive? What lifeforms, and how many of them, do we need? Please sensei, I need more guidance, before I end up playing the game the "wrong way"
and yes, now "fun" is more important than "balance" and yet I hear people crying over "unbalanced teams" everytime they lose
Of course it's an impossibility that the people "crying" over "unbalanced teams" are different people than those who play for fun, those must be the same people! It couldn't be that the "crying" ones are those that think others are not playing the game the "proper" way, could it?
Maybe those people not playing the "proper" way couldn't care less about winning? Maybe they just want a round that's, for once, slightly different, and not the very same, very predictable, snoozefest? Not everybody has the same idea of "fun", for some people it's "fun" to try different and new things, regardless of how contrary they go to the current "meta".
That's also a very valid way play the game, at least when you manage to survive all the hate you receive for not playing the "cookie cutter" way.
Marines are playing perfectly and lane-blocking? who cares, lets have a stupid sneaky tunnel and resbite the whole map from there or make a base rush.
Well.. then.. they were neither playing perfectly or lane blocking well enough were they?
Sorry just had to say that. Everything else you said was gold, and I of course am no fan of early game tunnels.
(I don't mind late game since it would be our fault for not foreseeing something so predictable and counter-able.. but I get the soured reception it receives from many)
Yes I know that, but is it fair that for every skulk that manages to pass through (thanks to silence or something like that) then marines have to keep scanning around for possible random tunnels?
I have no problem with the present tunnel placements and its mechanics. I just don't like the idea of having more tunnel placements in locations where marines would never go otherwise, even if they are technically accessible through ladders or something similar. Two clear exemples of that are on top of Lava Falls in Refinery and in a couple of holes in Mineshaft
And also I tried to express my frustration with so many players just doing that during the whole game, instead of trying to have some teamplay, which is the better part of this game. Some even do that when they have onos pres.
And my position is not elitist. I don't care if someone has 10% accuracy or if he flashes his lifeform during an important fight. I never insult anyone for that, I even try to be suportive. My "elitism" is when some players of the team clearly ignore every single call that we make just to do some random useless stuff, in that case that would be to only try the cheesy win. This is specially funny when they make a tunnel in skylights in Veil although their main is Sub-sector and they don't even need a tunnel.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
@rebirth
So you trying to tell us personal fun is the most important thing while playing a online shooter, right?
And noone has the rights to tell these people how they have to play a game, right?
So by your logic 2 gorges that standing in the starthive training there babblers are ok, as long they have fun doing this.
A com who spend all the ressources exlusive on armory walls everywhere cause he wants to try out new stuff and placing the armorys is fun in general is ok.
Even a hacker is ok by your logic, cause hey, he play the game like he wants and its fun to slaughter all enemys.
If you want to play for fun only, play singleplayergames.
In an online shooter especial in an team orientated game like NS2 with a wide variations of playerskills you cant have pure fun cause your way to play the game affects the other players fun directly.
The fun of the 2 gorges of above is trolling for me while for the gorges i am a toxic player.
I would start a kick vote against the com of above immediately while he might post in the forum after that about how toxic the community is.
If you dont want to win a round and dont care about objectives, dont play online shooter.
So simple is that,
I love the use of gorges doing nothing and a comm blowing res to back up your argument...
Because he's totally talking about having fun by doing nothing and/or trolling the team.
And of course if you aren't playing the "proper" way then obviously you must be circle jerking in main or blowing all the team res to screw your team over...
@rebirth
So you trying to tell us personal fun is the most important thing while playing a online shooter, right?
And noone has the rights to tell these people how they have to play a game, right?
So by your logic 2 gorges that standing in the starthive training there babblers are ok, as long they have fun doing this.
A com who spend all the ressources exlusive on armory walls everywhere cause he wants to try out new stuff and placing the armorys is fun in general is ok.
Even a hacker is ok by your logic, cause hey, he play the game like he wants and its fun to slaughter all enemys.
If you want to play for fun only, play singleplayergames.
In an online shooter especial in an team orientated game like NS2 with a wide variations of playerskills you cant have pure fun cause your way to play the game affects the other players fun directly.
The fun of the 2 gorges of above is trolling for me while for the gorges i am a toxic player.
I would start a kick vote against the com of above immediately while he might post in the forum after that about how toxic the community is.
If you dont want to win a round and dont care about objectives, dont play online shooter.
So simple is that,
I like how you both acknowledge that an individual player having fun may affect the fun of others AND assume that everybody else is talking about the fun of the individual player only.
A game should be as fun as possible for as many people as possible over the greatest possible time period. That's why it's a game.
A game should be as fun as possible for as many people as possible over the greatest possible time period. That's why it's a game.
After reading this i remembered countless rush rounds in Battlefield Bad Company 2 as attacker in an 16 player team with 13 snipers in my back doing nothing while i was one of the 3 idiots trying to win the game.
They're [Tunnels] just boring and bland, I don't like using tunnels anymore because they feel like a waste of res. Especially since the only "good" place to put them is near res nodes, where they are the first thing targeted by attacking Marines.
The latter sentence is just patently wrong and might be a reason you don't enjoy tunnels
Fun is simply more important than balance. Which game would you want to play?
a) A game that is a blast to play, but isn't perfectly balanced.
b) A game that is boring as hell, but balance is completely perfect.
This is just a false dichotomy... If you really believe these are options then I see no reason to continue posting
Comments
1) flamer on one arm and minigun/rail/welder on the other.. A lot more than a FL with more hp... Far from useless.
2) what?? What's TTO? Is that an 18 player server? Cause that would be only 9 oni there...
3) Fun =/= ez kills... How nice of you to go off in this tangent and even further prove my point. That you instantly see wanting to make the game more fun as "crying for ez kills"... That's just sad.
You're displaying a very elitist and closed minded competitive view here...
Hah, at the 7minute mark he wishes he could walk to make less noise.
Don't we all..
Is it just me or is the old rifle and in many cases, all the old stuff just looks waaaaaaaaay cooler than what we have now?
If you make gorge tunnels accessible anywhere for "fun" then you inevitably get OP spots. It might be fun for you on aliens, but it gets boring very quickly on marines because you can't do much about it. So on marines it just becomes incredibly unfun and you will inevitable play both sides.
If you balance for balance sake and skill then the fun comes from being better. I understand the want to not homogenize the game but that's why we have different lifeforms with different mechanics and different weapons for different purposes.
Keeping in tone with that, atmosphere and lights I'm in favour of because heck, I want it to look cool when I do cool stuff. The issue is when the engine is so poor and performance is massively affected that skill isn't what matters but simply how good your computer is. It wasn't long ago when the competitive community was lambasted for simply having better equipment thus giving them an edge.
Some people just can't get 50 frags in a game because they can't play lerks and fades at a level high enough to do so and I'm sorry, but I don't want to see lifeforms buffed just so we have an "everybody's a winner" attitude. If you really want to be a winner, you have to put in the effort or find something you're good at.
Then you say:
And how does that affect minute 13 - X where marines might be pushing hard and aliens are waiting for their saving grace onos?
And how does buffing a weapon that deals with onos, affect marine combat vs skulks/lerks/fades/PvE?
You end up with ludicrous ripple effects and a buffing spiral until everything one hits each other, and even then the more skilled players will come out more often on top because they have faster reactions and better decision making capacities.
But this is the issue. For some reason you've managed to take and hold a very egocentric ground based on BALANCE THINGS FOR MY FUN, BUT DON'T LET IT BE OP. Do you understand how ridiculous this is? How on earth can you balance a game around someone with 1397 hive points and expect the 4k players not to wreck you.
The point of balance is to ensure 2 things
You've just got to appreciate the simple fact that everything you can do, I can do better.
Hell some of the custom maps have entire rooms where you can't place a tunnel due to how they're restricted...
You can literally only place them out in the most obvious open spots. Which is part of the reason dropping one anywhere other than a rt gets you bitched at..
As far as buffing a weapon for onos without it becoming op against lower life forms.. Umm gee i dunno maybe a different damage type like heavy? Maybe have onos take double damage from a certain weapon like the hmg or a railgun.
But of course you also read my post as "make things fun/easy for me" which continues to highlight what's wrong with this community...
Because I'd like more fun mechanics (like welding vents or building barricades) that must automatically mean i just want it easy...
You even looked up my hive score in some lame attempt to discredit me... So sad.
Old rifle was oldschool -also I love this bug
I kind of think we're on the same page, but this very sentence is what confuses people. I don't think you believe this, I think you're trying to say that things went too far? Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to misrepresent you.
Not really; Shades.
I could be wrong but I think the main problem was that one single cyst in a room affected all the lights so it had disproportionate effects. Couple that with the undying cysts now and I think it is a recipe for disaster. Although I do like the concept myself if only the lights more localised to the cyst/infestation were affected.
I agreed with you here in my post. I think all of us want to see more features that are fun. I also think none of us (Including you) want to see features like ridiculously OP gorge tunnels. It's a question of being able to appropriately balance new features and their ripple effects.
Well this is what balance is... The ability to make skills and features accessible to everyone without being abusable so that the more skilled players win, not just a rock-paper-scissor determination. If you're talking about creating features so that there could be more phases in the game and thus more frequent power swings between factions then I think that could be a good thing too!
I think unfortunately you're in a minority who care about the restriction of gorge tunnel placement. IMO gorge tunnels are in a good place (with the exception of starting alien pres).
What are your thoughts on compmod gorge movement and giving gorges more movement freedom so they can be more engaging in combat (and imo more fun)?
Eh well you were throwing your toys out of your pram because you were coming across as holding this bizarre position that balance means you can't have fun because it's not balanced in your eyes for your needs (read: gorge tunnel)
2) Shades aren't all that sneaky because
a. Commander has to agree to drop or echo the shade
b. Commander has to have enough res for the shade
c. You have to build the shade if the comm doesn't echo it in, which is a lot more time spent building and making noise to draw marine attention
d. Since tunnels can only be placed out in the open, any Marine passing by is pretty much guaranteed to hear the change in their footsteps as they pass over the infestation.
An example of a tunnel location I used to use a lot would be under the walkway outside of water pumps on Mineshaft... It was out of the way and hidden, yet it could be revealed easily (via scan or observant Marine) and killed (because Marines can both shoot and/or climb down there easily)
3) All I know is atmospheric territories came out, everyone pitched a huge fit because it "ruined balance" then shortly after that it's gone... It was a great addition to the game.
4) Yes I am in a minority about tunnels and I know that... It's not that I think they're unbalanced, I can agree they're in a good place other than the starting pres... They're just boring and bland, I don't like using tunnels anymore because they feel like a waste of res. Especially since the only "good" place to put them is near res nodes, where they are the first thing targeted by attacking Marines.
5) Throwing toys?? out of my pram??? what?!? O...k... moving on... I never meant to imply that balance means you can't have fun.. Fun is simply more important than balance. Which game would you want to play?
a) A game that is a blast to play, but isn't perfectly balanced.
b) A game that is boring as hell, but balance is completely perfect.
I also never said the game wasn't balanced... (although currently it's not.. it favors aliens)
And you want more stupid places where to hide them?
Yes, that would be superfun and fair to marines. Because a marine team which is playing perfectly then needs their commander to scan every millimeter of the map to find a tunnel in a stupid position (like some of the regions of mineshaft that you are crying about)
Marines are playing perfectly and lane-blocking? who cares, lets have a stupid sneaky tunnel and resbite the whole map from there or make a base rush. Lets send all our players over and over again trying to build that stupid tunnel, which is superfun for both teams
I find so sad that so many people refuse to learn how to play aliens properly and instead they only care about sneaky tunnels to rush. The same people that cry in every match about balancing the teams, because they don't even realize that they are being hard carried by 1 or 2 players every single game just because they refuse to learn the basics.
and yes, now "fun" is more important than "balance" and yet I hear people crying over "unbalanced teams" everytime they lose
A civilized discussion is "crying", any sneaky tunnel is "stupid", and he even worked in the classic "learn to play" insult... Superb 10/10 effort.
then I am trully sorry. Please forget everything I said and I will try to rephrase it
You want more gorge tunnel placements because you find that more fun.
I dont want more tunnel placements, because that makes the game completely unfun to me
They are almost always last-ditch attempts by an alien team that played like idiots for the first 10 minutes - sacrificing map control, res, and playing team deathmatch instead of biting RTs - to turn it all around and 'win' in a "LOL sorry you didn't have 30 res for scans marine comm", moment. Then they can all go to the ready room and "gg" while stroking each other's backs about how "clever" that tunnel was, even though they learned nothing about how to actually play the game. For some people this seems to be the only tactic they know. Like the 4-move checkmate in chess. And when it doesn't work, there isn't any real gameplay knowledge or game sense there to develop another plan. It's just "gg, we tried".
The "learn to play" statements aren't meant as "LOL why aren't you a professional gamer like me". They are meant more literally. Like please, learn to play the game and stop relying on crutches.
And Blrg is absolutly right bout the "crying".
Like i said ages ago:
If you want to balance the game for new players just do this:
Give them a wall on there heads as skulk. So they can continue run on the floor into 4 marines and a Aimbot upgrade researchable by the rine com.
And thats why its stupid to balance a game around the lowest skill, so they can have fun.
NS2 has no unlockable stuff like weapons, attachments and the ingame rank is pretty useless.
The only thing you get for playing is experience.
Thats why im playing this game for so long: getting better.
And playing NS2 on an high level with people knowing what they doing was the best experience i ever had in a game.
Its just sad what happened to modern games where people playing only for dumb archivements, skins or whatever.
Developers need to spend so much effort in useless crap cause without that people cant have fun.
Maybe thats why modern games are full of bugs these days, cause 20 developers cant help bugfixing:
They have to work on the "fun"-part of the game.
No it's not toxic or elitist TO say that.. What's toxic and elitist is the WAY they said it...
Like the ONLY possible reason to want more freedom in tunnel placement is because I'm a trash player who doesn't know how to play the game.. The ONLY possible thing I could EVER want to use a sneaky tunnel for is a cheesy rush to get a cheap win...
But whatever, it was just meant as an example of how they killed some of the fun in the name of balance... Remove tunnels altogether for all I care.
Except I wasn't talking about tunnels built in positions Marines can't reach. Learn to read.
This pretty much hits the spot. Especially the first part.
It's almost like NS1 had all the right ideas.
Sorry just had to say that. Everything else you said was gold, and I of course am no fan of early game tunnels.
(I don't mind late game since it would be our fault for not foreseeing something so predictable and counter-able.. but I get the soured reception it receives from many)
Wasn't this one of the bad ideas that NS1 scrapped?
I really like how you consider yourself in a position to talk for everybody.
I love sneaky gorge tunnels, I also love sneaky PG rushes, they add optionsto the game, for me that's never a bad thing.
Just follow where the aliens are coming from? Don't your "perfectly playing, lane covering" Marine team have ears and a minimap? What is their commander doing?
Aliens are not pushing the lanes and instead chose to flank the Marines: OH THE HORROR! WHY ARE THEY PLAYING THE GAME WRONG?!
Great sensei, please teach me about the "proper" way of playing alien! Should I announce any dropped gorge tunnels in chat? Wouldn't want to confuse those poor marines too much!
What is the "proper" chamber for the first and second hive? What lifeforms, and how many of them, do we need? Please sensei, I need more guidance, before I end up playing the game the "wrong way"
Of course it's an impossibility that the people "crying" over "unbalanced teams" are different people than those who play for fun, those must be the same people! It couldn't be that the "crying" ones are those that think others are not playing the game the "proper" way, could it?
Maybe those people not playing the "proper" way couldn't care less about winning? Maybe they just want a round that's, for once, slightly different, and not the very same, very predictable, snoozefest? Not everybody has the same idea of "fun", for some people it's "fun" to try different and new things, regardless of how contrary they go to the current "meta".
That's also a very valid way play the game, at least when you manage to survive all the hate you receive for not playing the "cookie cutter" way.
Yes I know that, but is it fair that for every skulk that manages to pass through (thanks to silence or something like that) then marines have to keep scanning around for possible random tunnels?
I have no problem with the present tunnel placements and its mechanics. I just don't like the idea of having more tunnel placements in locations where marines would never go otherwise, even if they are technically accessible through ladders or something similar. Two clear exemples of that are on top of Lava Falls in Refinery and in a couple of holes in Mineshaft
And also I tried to express my frustration with so many players just doing that during the whole game, instead of trying to have some teamplay, which is the better part of this game. Some even do that when they have onos pres.
And my position is not elitist. I don't care if someone has 10% accuracy or if he flashes his lifeform during an important fight. I never insult anyone for that, I even try to be suportive. My "elitism" is when some players of the team clearly ignore every single call that we make just to do some random useless stuff, in that case that would be to only try the cheesy win. This is specially funny when they make a tunnel in skylights in Veil although their main is Sub-sector and they don't even need a tunnel.
So you trying to tell us personal fun is the most important thing while playing a online shooter, right?
And noone has the rights to tell these people how they have to play a game, right?
So by your logic 2 gorges that standing in the starthive training there babblers are ok, as long they have fun doing this.
A com who spend all the ressources exlusive on armory walls everywhere cause he wants to try out new stuff and placing the armorys is fun in general is ok.
Even a hacker is ok by your logic, cause hey, he play the game like he wants and its fun to slaughter all enemys.
If you want to play for fun only, play singleplayergames.
In an online shooter especial in an team orientated game like NS2 with a wide variations of playerskills you cant have pure fun cause your way to play the game affects the other players fun directly.
The fun of the 2 gorges of above is trolling for me while for the gorges i am a toxic player.
I would start a kick vote against the com of above immediately while he might post in the forum after that about how toxic the community is.
If you dont want to win a round and dont care about objectives, dont play online shooter.
So simple is that,
Because he's totally talking about having fun by doing nothing and/or trolling the team.
And of course if you aren't playing the "proper" way then obviously you must be circle jerking in main or blowing all the team res to screw your team over...
Nice
I like how you both acknowledge that an individual player having fun may affect the fun of others AND assume that everybody else is talking about the fun of the individual player only.
A game should be as fun as possible for as many people as possible over the greatest possible time period. That's why it's a game.
After reading this i remembered countless rush rounds in Battlefield Bad Company 2 as attacker in an 16 player team with 13 snipers in my back doing nothing while i was one of the 3 idiots trying to win the game.
The latter sentence is just patently wrong and might be a reason you don't enjoy tunnels
This is just a false dichotomy... If you really believe these are options then I see no reason to continue posting