Whose Supposed To Be The Teamwork Side?

uranium_235 · January 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Marines or Aliens?</div> This was from another thread and it got me thinking...

The aliens can last just fine being a 'Rambo'. Wheras, if you don't stick together as a marine, you'll get slaughtered.

So why is the <b>ONLY</b> incentive for teamwork for the marines just the fact that you can pool your bullets, and MAYBE get an armor weld (Which I hope will be nerfed, because the welding/HMG orgys are annoying.)

What I mean is that teamwork for the aliens can give them near-invulnerability, a movement and attack speed upgrade, the ability to heal teammates incredibly quickly, etc.

I would've thought it'd make more sense to give the teamwork incentive items to the marines... Right now it's:

Marines don't work as team.
Loose.

Marines work as team.
Could Loose, Could Win.

Aliens don't work as team.
Could loose, could win.

Aliens work as team.
Could loose, greater chance of winning.

Anyone else think that this doesn't make much sense? Shouldn't it be the MARINES who get the medpacks, the nano-clouds to absorb and nullify alien acids (Makes more sense then bacteria that miraculously cathes bullets, too.) to encourage teamwork?

Maybe that's part of the problem with marine Rambos? If the marines were given, say, TFC style teamwork incentives, there'd be more teamwork, instead of just having another pair of eyes and another gun next to you.

Berger · January 2003

Lol. TFC style teamwork incentives. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'> But you do have a bit of a point, the marines should have more support-ish weapons. Right now, they have only the welder and the grenade launcher, which can both be used quite effectively by themselves, without support.

I suggest a primary weapon that can only be used to improve the effectiveness of your teammates. Perhaps something on the lines of a steroids injector, which, when used on a fellow marine, improves his health by 20 or so and perhaps increases his armor's damage absorbtion. I know this isn't really such a great idea, but it illustrates the point.

Forlorn · January 2003

Here's the incentive for teamwork:

If you don't work together, YOU LOSE!

Wow....

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> = CHOMP

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> = SPLAT

Driftwood · January 2003

I'd have to say that both teams are meant to be the teamwork side.

Marines being able to pool their bullets isn't a bad incentive in my opinion. Since the option is to run alone rambo and get 3 skulks jump at you from different directions. Having two guns spraying bullets down a hallway is considerably different from you doing it alone. Sticking together makes marines live longer and accomplish more. If that isn't big enough incentive, the problem lies in the marine players. Not every alien co-operates with his fellows either. It's just a question of players. Some can't find any fun in waiting for some marines to move as a group and some would never evolve into a lerk in order to support his bigger friends.

Marines have superior ranged weapons. That's why aliens, not marines, have umbra. Gorge healing units in the front lines is a gorge that's eating 3x resources and runs at a risk of getting killed in the process - fair deal in my opinion. Primal scream is right now something of a curiosity as at least in pubs Onos is reduced simply to the role of game ender.

I do see your point, but a group of able marines working together is already very strong unit. Coaxing people to do it with new weapons or features could well make that unit too strong. A group of marines is superior to a lone Rambo. If that isn't enough incentive to stick up, it's all very sad, but not really problem of the devs. Like it has been stated before, you can't design your game for bad or inexperienced players and expect it to work. This problem is highlighted by the fact that NS aims for a strong clan community. Clanplayers and good public players work as a team without any extra incentives and adding them, would change the balance. Playing as a team is part of becoming a good NS player and if a player doesn't play as a team he a) hasn't learned his lessons yet b) is an individual rambo by his nature.

kolokol · January 2003

Ok so we all know about marine teamwork, but let me tell you 6+ skulks are an <b>AWESOME</b> force of destruction, nothing can stand in there way. I played on bast recently and we must have wasted 500 of the marine teams resources at the vey least simply by taking out there huge turret farm in atm processing on bast

DeadlyFred · January 2003

The competence requirement for marines is far higher than the aliens. Teamwork is a PLUS for the aliens, but a REQUIREMENT as a Marine. Unless you're facing a pretty slack-off alien team, you have GOT to have it together to win as a Marine. While a well-oiled Marine Machine can crush alien oposition pretty easilly... anything less will get eaten alive by a strong alien team. Placing far too much emphasis upon a VARIABLE.. that being the competence of your team. All well and good for clan matches and such, where you can be pretty well assured that most of the ppl know what they're doing... but pretty sucky for your average pub server. Gets tiresome after a while... but oh well, if that's how the game's SUPPOSED to be /me shrugs ... I personally like things that are a big more stably balanced.

IronshirtAIucard · January 2003

Both sides have a lot of incentives for teamwork and also some incentive for ramboish behavior.

Marine:
Shoot & spray--usually this is more effecive with more marines.
Downside: crossfire. I get SOOOO **** off when another marine just jumps in
front of my line of fire. This also happens when I'm trying to lob nades at a WoL.

Gang build--wow that phase gate went up in less than 2 seconds...
Armor weld--of course, you need a comm that actually drops medpacks..and welders..

Rambo:
Sound: You can hear those skulks comming a mile away; oh what's that sound?
A GORGE!! WOOT!!
Action: Can you handle it? If you can, your comm will love you. If you can't,
get back to base, ****. (sorry, base **** is the term I use for the person
that stays and defend main base while others rush a hive)
NO CROSS FIRE

Aliens:
a surprise skulk/gorge + carapace combo can usually overcome a decent turret farm
with less than 3 marines guarding it.

a group of skulks will make a marine **** his pants.
a group of carapace skulks will make a group of marines **** their pants...
Disadvantage to hunting is a group is that you have to share your dinner =(

Rambo:
Surprise attack--hear a marine, pull back and hide behind the corner, go heal, and
repeat. The advantage of this is that a rambo alien is sometimes encourage since
he/she will help out considerably by patrolling out of the way areas and prevent
surprise phase gates near the hives.

Disadvantage is that in most cases, a rambo alien is incapable of pulling back after he scouts a group a marine thinking he can take them (yes, we..err I mean they are usually that arrogant ^^ )
On the flip side, usually the rambo will have report the impending movement of the intruders before he/she makes his/her death charge.

Ph0enix · January 2003

NS always was advertised as Marines = Teamwork style play, Aliens = Deathmatch style play.

Its kinda true, to a point, but also misleading. Marines have to stick together, cover each others backs and follow orders from their commander. They rely on their commander to get anywhere, without him/her, they're dead in the water.

Aliens can evolve to builders or various warrior Kharaa they see fit, when they decide to. They don't need a commander. They have no 'ammo' to run out off, can run back to DCs or the hive if they need healing, and change to gorge and build when they want. Kharaa are much more independant then marines.

The Kharaa style of play I would describe as more independant and iniative led, rather then deathmatch.

However, Kharaa have one thing they absolutely must do.

They have to communicate with each other.

A marine can blindly follow orders all day, not needing to know the overall picture, asking for health and ammo every now and again but thats it. Kharaa however, should be constantly gaving updates on the marines positions and activities, and their own activities.

The best alien teams i've been on were always communicating, letting everyone know what was happening, tracking marine movements, informing if someone was going gorge, where, and if they needed a skulk guard etc, etc. That is the one teamwork element which aliens do have to follow.

Terr · January 2003

I posted a reply like this just an hour or two ago...

Both sides require teamwork and cooperation to do well. They differ in their style of cooperation. The marines have a more authoritarian top-down structure with the commander, and the aliens have more of a democratic enlightened-self-interest way of doing things.

On a <i>tactical</i> level, when you're in the tunnels facing each other, it's a bit harder for the aliens to get the same level of cooperation as the marines do. However, it's balanced out on the <i>strategic</i> level, where aliens can cooperate with each other not necessarily by sticking together--but by leading marines into ambushes, using pincer attacks, and maintaining a wider-spread presence.

Kid-A · January 2003

OMG aliens are teh commies!!!!

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Marines don't work as team.
Loose.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
There is your incentive to the marine team.

TeoH · January 2003

I agree with that, the pressure is on the alien team to organise itself because it doesn't have a grand overseer giving out orders. Because no alien can see everything at once, they rely on instructing each other, anyone who has relevant information has to pass it on.

The marine team can operate relatively well with just a 1-way flow of information from commander to marines, even if its just in the form of waypoints. The marines don't necessarily have to communicate with each other at all, or even have a clue what's going on as long as the commander feeds them jobs and waypoints continually. The alien team is much more reliant on its entire team being strategically aware, every player able to make strategic decisions. While the marines in the field can be pretty much clueless and still perform a decent job as long as the commander has an overview of everything.

This, along with alien tech being less familiar, is probably the reason why the auto-help shuffles newbies onto the marine team.

Ph0enix · January 2003

We're in severe danger of everybody agreeing here guys <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

pardzh · January 2003

It's a teamplay modification. Don't you think both <i>teams</i> should have <i>team</i>work? Strikes me as sounding right. Dunno why that bothers anyone.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

NegaBenji · January 2003

What people are forgetting, is that both sides HAVE to work as a team to win. If people start running around doing whatever they want, and the other team is even slightly more organized, that team will succeed. The main requirement is the distribution of res, and how each team spends it. The thing about the marines is that they have a definite autocracy going - one guy makes all the decisions, he basically controls their economy and the other marines can only carry out his orders. And they know they have to follow orders, or they'll end up losing - there's a plan going on, and it's in their interests to do what they're told.

Aliens however, are each able to do whatever they want - if everyone wants to effectively be a commander, by going gorge and building structures everywhere then they can. If they want to waste res by going lerk every time they spawn, and dying within 5 seconds of meeting a marine then they can. Res management and control is not enforced with aliens, which means they have to work as a team or they'll effectively destroy their chances, the marines will accelerate ahead and eventually overpower them. When everyone is on an equal level, teamwork becomes a choice and therefore makes things harder, especially on public servers.

Insidious · January 2003

Alien's have to choose one role or the other. Marines don't. A fade/lerk/gorge team relys mainly on the fade for damage. If it were three fades, they'd gain firepower and sacrifce umbra. A marine team doesn't sacrifice any firepower to get HA and welders (welders ~ gorge, HA ~ umbra), and they can get bigger guns later, making three marines equivalent to three fades AND a lerk and a gorge. Assuming the marines are at least as competent as the aliens, and a gorge/lerk/fade combo is a pretty advanced tactic (well, it's actually fairly simple... but so is sticking together. Neither is done on pubs consistantly, so I'm classifying it as an advanced tactic), so I'm assuming pretty advanced marines. The marines stand a chance with comperable equipment.

If the marines survive, they can keep getting more powerful equipment, while the aliens spend most of their time maxed out and looking for a hive. Aliens may be able to jump ahead of marines, but they tech in leaps and bounds. Marines tech in steady lines, so they're sometimes ahead, sometimes behind. But just by stretching the game out, marines can reach the top of their tech tree, while denying aliens anything past their midgame.

Marines can scavanging guns. If another player is standing by, anyone that dies is the equivalent of a lost LMG, because the larger guns will be recovered. Thus if the whole team is fighting together, you have to wipe out THE WHOLE TEAM just to get rid of ONE HMG. A skulk can't scavange acid rockets from a dead fade, so backup or no, a dead alien is dead. The way to die the slowest is to stick together. Even if you're fighting a losing battle, this means the marines die slower, and time is all they need to research beyond the aliens. So teamwork rewards the individual with the chance to scavange, and it rewards the team with the chance to tech.

Terr · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insidious @ Jan 15 2003, 05:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A skulk can't scavange acid rockets from a dead fade, so backup or no, a dead alien is dead.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Wouldn't it be interesting if gorges could medevac dead aliens?... Shades of FireArms indeed.

Or maybe lerk-and-higher aliens could leave res-puddles behind that could be 'used' (eaten?) by aliens to slowly plop it back into the communal pool <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

AcKz · January 2003

^ lol

Whose Supposed To Be The Teamwork Side?

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