(Mini)map improvements

BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
edited June 2016 in Ideas and Suggestions
Hi,

in order to give the players a better understanding of where to be and what to do, I'd like to suggest two improvements for the map (C key):

Currently it looks somewhat like this:
tszo1410fdoi.jpg

1) Team presence indicator
Back in the alpha the marine commander would see circles around the marines, which were supposed to work like a squad system:
I think that, if applied to the map, it would emphasise positioning better.
Like so:
zi85x1rddv0u.jpg

You could see the presence of your team better and fill the gaps accordingly. In that example screenshot, it would be easier to see that the way to your base is open through hub.
The size of that circle mght scale with the players mobility, so that a jetpacker has a larger circle than a non-jetpack flamethrower marine.


2) Player and structure health
Additionally, I'd like to see a health indication for structures and players on the map, so you'd know where to weld or where to heal as a gorge. A red/yellow/green dot in the centre of the icon could suffice (at least for structures).
Like so (player health not included):
ub2z50ecmqbc.jpg

Player health could be shown like the bars for the marine commander.
The benefit would be better team play, because as alien you'd know who should engage first depending on hp and welding as a marine and healing as gorge would be easier and faster.

edit: of course the health indication dots need to be visually different than the observatory scan dots.
Post edited by Bicsum on
NordicBlrg.trixX.YojimboIeptBarakatmigalskiAurOn2The_Welsh_Wizardwarbrand2ydyChrisStarkLegend_BosshalfofaheavenAxior

Comments

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,688 Advanced user
    I really like this idea. I think this would help rookies and lower skilled players in a few different ways.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,243 Advanced user
    These are both great ideas @remi can we get some input on them? Shouldn't be too hard to implement and I cannot see any possible drawbacks.
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited June 2016
    Nordic wrote: »
    I really like this idea. I think this would help rookies and lower skilled players in a few different ways.

    I think even the best players sometimes forget where to go and what to do. The player icons on the map are sometimes hard to see, because they merge with structure icons. For example when someone builds an RT. When under stress, you might lose track of where every marine is. With this, you would know right away how your team is positioned.

    The overlapping parts of the circle should be less transparant, which would indicate more power.

    I would even go so far and make these circles for enemy players as well. So that you see these enemy presence circles for parasited marines, or generally marines that are in in line of sight. You could then educate the aliens to avoid these circles and to parasite more often to get these circles.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    Good thoughts, makes sense. Would be a lot easier for people to understand lanes and why a commander is telling them something.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited June 2016
    You could even indicate line of sight, which would also be useful information.
    8eb0cachubn7.png

    The yellow line means having line of sight (even when not looking in that direction). The red line means breaking line of sight. You could make it so that it blinks and then fades out after 1-2 seconds.
  • McGlaspieMcGlaspie www.team156.com Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 966 admin
    Some good stuff here guys. No promises on implementing any of it (or the exact ideas posted here), but I've made note of it and will look into this. Some of the ideas posted here are similar to things I've already been thinking about. There are some potential performance issues with most of this, however, a decent compromise can probably be found.
    NordicYojimboAurOn2Bicsum
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 372 Advanced user
    Well, I like the idea..
    but please keep in mind that all these possible changes need to be configurable or at least toggable to shut it off, if its to shiny on a transparent map :)
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,688 Advanced user
    I think line of site would be information overload on the map. It would simply be too much going on.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    .trixX.snbBestProfileName
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,243 Advanced user
    How about cone of vision like in metal gear solid if the other ideas don't get approved?
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff Posts: 2,130 mod
    edited June 2016
    You're all forgetting one key thing:
    Mapmode toggles.
    All these ideas are well and good, but what if someone doesn't want them? (I.E they get a bit cluttery in say.. a 24v24 server? :open_mouth: )
    Send me a private message if you need me to kill someone "help" with anything.

    The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, “You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I’m just not close enough to get the job done.” - George Carlin.

    Youtube Channel for Sydney Music
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,243 Advanced user
    Just stuck it in ns2+
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
  • DilligafDilligaf Join Date: 2014-05-25 Member: 196238Members Posts: 55 Advanced user
    Yes one of the main reasons marines lose is because of lack of map awareness.
    There is a minimap but when you press C it shows more details about the lifeforms than the red dots on the minimap.
    Please Replace the red dots on the minimap with lifeform indicators OR and this will be a risky move and rather not see it change the lifeform indicator on the big map into red dots.
    Bicsum
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 1,011 Fully active user
    How about indicating marines on map that have a goddamn welder ?
    RevanCoranasnbHandschuh
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester Posts: 2,689 admin
    .trixX. wrote: »
    YES PLEASE.
    This is rookie friendliness, not HP bars ;]

    65d83z8baupo.gif

    This is cool. Great mockup.
    [ Rek | Reklys | remedy | remi.D | blu.knight | Psyke | Sky ]
    I have way too many names.
  • RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 191 Advanced user
    Very good idea. I like the example of trixx.
    wya3p5tg.png
  • SintaxSintax Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10581Members Posts: 19 Fully active user
    edited July 2016
    Hey, I love the idea of the colored sectors or areas. It would be amazing to get this into the game and use it to work out the problem of aliens having no minimap. As we all probably know, the marines have a minimap as an asymmetrical perk vs aliens, who have other types of improved vision. However, there is a problem where new players tend not to use the map (press C noob!), and you have to bring up the map constantly especially as aliens.

    But if aliens had a minimap that was more like this (from OP):
    ub2z50ecmqbc.jpg

    Then maybe an alien minimap can be made that shows red orbs where enemies are, or red sectors that have enemy presence. This way, the marines keep their asymmetrical minimap advantage, but aliens still have a general idea of what's going on in the map without having to bring up the full map, which has more specific information.

    Good ideas in this thread tho :)
    TriggerHappyBroAurOn2Legend_Boss
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,592 Advanced user
    Trixx's idea + orange or red color when the room is contested
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,825 admin
    It's a good idea! I would like to do this. It's not easy though... will probably require some engine work to allow us to draw arbitrary shapes into a texture (eg the minimap texture, or some texture created on top of it).
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,688 Advanced user
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    It's a good idea! I would like to do this. It's not easy though... will probably require some engine work to allow us to draw arbitrary shapes into a texture (eg the minimap texture, or some texture created on top of it).

    Couldn't you just mix something with mcglaspies atmospherics mod and how infestation is shown?
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited April 2017
    I think it is important that the highlighting is marine centered and not room centered, because the point of the circle is to show the marines interception range, which can be between two rooms. If the coloring was room centered, it would often fail to fulfil its purpose of visualising the concept of lane blocking.

    For Example on Tram you need two marines to lane block Hub (Mezzanine <> Elevator and North Ttunnels <> South Tunnels). If it was room centered and Hub was colorized, because it had one marine standing on the Elevator lane, South Tunnels would still be open and the map wouldn't properly show this.
    Handschuh
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 1,715 Advanced user
    I agree with Bicsum.
    As amazing as Trixx's mockup looks, this would also mean a lot of work to change all the maps' location entities. Might even need to add locations to certain corridors that are covered by a room's location entitiy right now, or a new type of location entity for the minimap highlights only.


    Handschuh
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,825 admin
    pSyk0mAn wrote: »
    I agree with Bicsum.
    As amazing as Trixx's mockup looks, this would also mean a lot of work to change all the maps' location entities. Might even need to add locations to certain corridors that are covered by a room's location entitiy right now, or a new type of location entity for the minimap highlights only.

    Not sure why that would have to happen, existing location entities should work fine.

    I'm thinking... why not do both? Have the rooms on the minimap show a very subtle blue tint to show it's marine territory, with much more visible circles around the marines themselves to show where they are at that moment.
    BicsumNordic.trixX.NousWanderer
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited April 2017
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,825 admin
    Waiting for that lol
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 372 Advanced user
    edited April 2018
    Sintax wrote: »
    Hey, I love the idea of the colored sectors or areas. It would be amazing to get this into the game and use it to work out the problem of aliens having no minimap. As we all probably know, the marines have a minimap as an asymmetrical perk vs aliens, who have other types of improved vision. However, there is a problem where new players tend not to use the map (press C noob!), and you have to bring up the map constantly especially as aliens.

    But if aliens had a minimap that was more like this (from OP):
    ub2z50ecmqbc.jpg

    Then maybe an alien minimap can be made that shows red orbs where enemies are, or red sectors that have enemy presence. This way, the marines keep their asymmetrical minimap advantage, but aliens still have a general idea of what's going on in the map without having to bring up the full map, which has more specific information.

    Good ideas in this thread tho :)

    Are you working on something like that...? This is ages ago, but haven't seen something like this in trello... this wouldn't only help veterans, but rookies to tell them... look noone is covering hub.. skulks slip through... the visual indicator would help that they'd more intuitively lane and cover RTs... even if they only glance for a second on a map. (And especially lower skilled players only glance at the map..)

    In General Laning / Covering the map has always been a big problem for all non-high-skilllevels...
    .trixX.
  • skav2skav2 Join Date: 2007-05-28 Member: 61037Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 180 Advanced user
    This is such a good idea!
    Nordic
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