Stab Bug

BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
I dont know if this is a known bug but I just found out today

If at any point during the animation of Stab you change your active ability to swipe, then the stab animation continues as normal but it only does the damage of swipe (75) instead of stab damage (160)

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Comments

  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited June 2016
    That is not really a bug. It is just how weapon damage is calculated in the game, based on your current weapon. Most weapons have almost instant attack animation so are unaffected by weapon switching.

    Though Stab has always been an awkward attack. I would propose to change it the behaviour of the hammer in Unreal Tournament -- holding primary attack to increase the potential damage, release primary to launch the attack at any time. Although that will require some major animation changes.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members
    edited June 2016
    Time for acid rockets instead of stab? The problem I have with stab I don't think it's been used that much. It also goes against what you want to do as a fade, which is get quick swipes in - not leave yourself open to attacks for a long period of time. Also, with focus - is stab even necessary? Give the fade some fun ability (acid rockets are fun and would only be used when the game should be over) with biomass 8 or 9 and perhaps stab can go away.
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
    That is not really a bug. It is just how weapon damage is calculated in the game, based on your current weapon. Most weapons have almost instant attack animation so are unaffected by weapon switching.
    Even if it is how the game calculates the damage it is still clearly a bug, since you have seen the full animation of stab and you have hit your target. Otherwise it is a terrible game mechanic. The only reason nobody cares is that traditionally no ones uses Stab because it is not worth it

    @Deck_ @fleas
    I have been making some tests with Stab precisely because of Focus. Because Focus only delays the second attack of the same type. So you can Stab+Swipe at the normal speed but doing 352 damage (full A3 marine is 280...). So yeah, 352 is high enough damage (dealt in less than 1 second) to figure a way to use it in some occasions. Worth it against exos or maybe with silence

  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    fleas wrote: »
    the introduction of focus just replaced stab imo. No decent commander will tech stab unless they have a lot of res or too much fades that they need to use it to clear rts/structure.

    but its as rare as finding a hamster on easter

    Focus + Stab is a 1 hit kill most of the time (everytime?).
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
    fleas wrote: »
    the introduction of focus just replaced stab imo. No decent commander will tech stab unless they have a lot of res or too much fades that they need to use it to clear rts/structure.

    but its as rare as finding a hamster on easter

    Focus + Stab is a 1 hit kill most of the time (everytime?).

    it is 240 damage, so 1 hit kill a full A2 marine
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members
    edited June 2016
    Blrg wrote: »
    That is not really a bug. It is just how weapon damage is calculated in the game, based on your current weapon. Most weapons have almost instant attack animation so are unaffected by weapon switching.
    Even if it is how the game calculates the damage it is still clearly a bug, since you have seen the full animation of stab and you have hit your target. Otherwise it is a terrible game mechanic. The only reason nobody cares is that traditionally no ones uses Stab because it is not worth it

    @Deck_ @fleas
    I have been making some tests with Stab precisely because of Focus. Because Focus only delays the second attack of the same type. So you can Stab+Swipe at the normal speed but doing 352 damage (full A3 marine is 280...). So yeah, 352 is high enough damage (dealt in less than 1 second) to figure a way to use it in some occasions. Worth it against exos or maybe with silence

    The problem with stab is it changes the movement of the fade, you have to sit there to get a swipe in. With focus, you can move the same...you just need to keep in mind the swipe speed is slower as you mentioned starting with the 2nd attack (that's if you're going for consecutive swipes). Why not just allow focus to do it's thing and replace stab? Stab seems like it's basically a taunt kill ability, or it's not used. I'm also not sure we want a one hit kill ability anyways.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Deck_ wrote: »
    Blrg wrote: »
    That is not really a bug. It is just how weapon damage is calculated in the game, based on your current weapon. Most weapons have almost instant attack animation so are unaffected by weapon switching.
    Even if it is how the game calculates the damage it is still clearly a bug, since you have seen the full animation of stab and you have hit your target. Otherwise it is a terrible game mechanic. The only reason nobody cares is that traditionally no ones uses Stab because it is not worth it

    @Deck_ @fleas
    I have been making some tests with Stab precisely because of Focus. Because Focus only delays the second attack of the same type. So you can Stab+Swipe at the normal speed but doing 352 damage (full A3 marine is 280...). So yeah, 352 is high enough damage (dealt in less than 1 second) to figure a way to use it in some occasions. Worth it against exos or maybe with silence

    The problem with stab is it changes the movement of the fade, you have to sit there to get a swipe in. With focus, you can move the same...you just need to time the swipes differently. Why not just allow focus to do it's thing and replace stab? Stab seems like it's basically a taunt kill ability, or it's not used. I'm also not sure we want a one hit kill ability anyways.

    I'm not sure if most people are aware yet that stab + focus can instakill a2 marines. I'd say give it a few weeks. If still nobody uses it by then, do something else with it.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members
    Deck_ wrote: »
    Blrg wrote: »
    That is not really a bug. It is just how weapon damage is calculated in the game, based on your current weapon. Most weapons have almost instant attack animation so are unaffected by weapon switching.
    Even if it is how the game calculates the damage it is still clearly a bug, since you have seen the full animation of stab and you have hit your target. Otherwise it is a terrible game mechanic. The only reason nobody cares is that traditionally no ones uses Stab because it is not worth it

    @Deck_ @fleas
    I have been making some tests with Stab precisely because of Focus. Because Focus only delays the second attack of the same type. So you can Stab+Swipe at the normal speed but doing 352 damage (full A3 marine is 280...). So yeah, 352 is high enough damage (dealt in less than 1 second) to figure a way to use it in some occasions. Worth it against exos or maybe with silence

    The problem with stab is it changes the movement of the fade, you have to sit there to get a swipe in. With focus, you can move the same...you just need to time the swipes differently. Why not just allow focus to do it's thing and replace stab? Stab seems like it's basically a taunt kill ability, or it's not used. I'm also not sure we want a one hit kill ability anyways.

    I'm not sure if most people are aware yet that stab + focus can instakill a2 marines. I'd say give it a few weeks. If still nobody uses it by then, do something else with it.

    Good point, but what I'm saying is, should the fade have an ability that forces the fade to sit there to get a swipe in?
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    It would be a fine ability if he could keep bunnyhopping. But focus or not it's still useless at the moment
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members
    edited June 2016
    Frozen wrote: »
    It would be a fine ability if he could keep bunnyhopping. But focus or not it's still useless at the moment

    I agree, but then it would be op'd...especially with 1 hit kills with focus. Just remove stab. I understand the risk/reward of sitting there while getting a big damage hit in - but it makes it a tank ability and the fade is not a tank and shouldn't be.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    edited June 2016
    Fixed in next build.

    That is not really a bug. It is just how weapon damage is calculated in the game, based on your current weapon. Most weapons have almost instant attack animation so are unaffected by weapon switching.

    It most certainly was a bug. What you could also do is start stabbing, switch to some other weapon, then switch back to stab, and nothing would happen, despite the animation still playing.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    Stab isn't stationary, you're doing it wrong.
    You have to predict where the marine is going, blink, and start stab mid air.
  • fleasfleas Join Date: 2007-10-13 Member: 62623Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2016

    Focus + Stab is a 1 hit kill most of the time (everytime?).

    yez, but so far, no commander will tech it. It's a total waste of res because you still risk your fade from the movement penalty.

    don't get me wrong, you are right if someone actually learns how to use it well, but I don't think it will mainstream anytime.


    I rather use focus and slowly pick off marines/exos without much risk even though p.res rate is higher now
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I actually really like Stab, I found it incredibly useful on structures, one could argue though if you have resources to research stab you are most likely winning.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    I actually really like Stab, I found it incredibly useful on structures, one could argue though if you have resources to research stab you are most likely winning.

    Agreed, at that point in the game you should really get onos upgrades.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members
    Deck_ wrote: »
    Good point, but what I'm saying is, should the fade have an ability that forces the fade to sit there to get a swipe in?

    If you're sitting infront of the marine and waiting for the stab to do it's thing, you're doing it wrong :P
    The whole point of the ability is that you have to start the attack way before you meet the marine. Freaking hard, granted, but it is a powerful ability.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members
    .trixX. wrote: »
    Deck_ wrote: »
    Good point, but what I'm saying is, should the fade have an ability that forces the fade to sit there to get a swipe in?

    If you're sitting infront of the marine and waiting for the stab to do it's thing, you're doing it wrong :P
    The whole point of the ability is that you have to start the attack way before you meet the marine. Freaking hard, granted, but it is a powerful ability.

    You can't jump or blink during the animation, right? So you're basically sitting up for the marine. Yes, you can move into the marine, but you are a really easy target. It's basically a walking tank move that doesn't fit for a fade to me. Perhaps it doesn't matter what ability you give the fade if it's not going to be used much. Perhaps other people are using this ability a lot.
  • Bike_ManBike_Man USA Join Date: 2016-03-12 Member: 214124Members
    Maybe if Stab applied some sort of debuff to the marine (a short parasite?) it would be more useful.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    edited June 2016
    I have an idea to make stab a bit easier to use.

    Imagine you have to keep left click pressed down to "charge" the stab, the more you hold it the more damage it deals when released (with a damage cap).

    It would be easier to use because the release timing can vary, but it would also keep its current mechanic because you would still not be able to blink while using it.

    Also it probably wouldn't require an excessive amount of rework of the current animation.
  • TriggerHappyBroTriggerHappyBro Ohio Join Date: 2016-05-23 Member: 217383Members, NS2 Playtester
    @RevanCorana what happens if you just press and release? Would that do normal swipe damage?

    If it does then I propose we scrap stab altogether and just have researching "stab" allow fade's to charge up swipe (but still not blink while charging).

    Whadda ya think?
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    @RevanCorana what happens if you just press and release? Would that do normal swipe damage?

    If it does then I propose we scrap stab altogether and just have researching "stab" allow fade's to charge up swipe (but still not blink while charging).

    Whadda ya think?

    Sounds good, switching to stab in fight also makes it more difficult to use and isn't particularly fun.
  • TriggerHappyBroTriggerHappyBro Ohio Join Date: 2016-05-23 Member: 217383Members, NS2 Playtester
    switching to stab in fight also makes it more difficult to use and isn't particularly fun.

    My thoughts exactly.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    edited June 2016
    Suggestion made https://feedback.userreport.com/19e981d4-394e-46de-997e-8913cc04aff2/#idea/124211

    Maybe should also start a thread in "idea and suggestions" so that devs have more chances to see x)
  • ZavaroZavaro Tucson, Arizona Join Date: 2005-02-14 Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    I really dislike the concept of redundant abilities that fill more or less the same role. It's one of the reasons why I'm still hesitant on Spores on Bio 4, filling the same role as earlier game Spikes due to its low biomass. My whole thought behind that is that Spores would be comparable to HMGs (which melt lerks) in terms of timings, so that the Lerk isn't just an Umbra machine on W3.

    If anything, Stab should be removed. It doesn't do anything that Swipe physically can't (especially with Focus somewhat closing the damage gap). The drawbacks of Stab in the gameplay sense are incredibly against what you want for your life form, which is unable to move properly, forcing an un-cancel-able and long animation. It's incredibly high Biomass for an ultra powerful ability that you just flat out don't need.

    Acid Rocket might be fun, as it helps noob players deal with jetpackers better. Not saying I'm for it, but it might be cool. It'd have to be seriously low damage (with especially low corrode if any), or low rate of fire. Again, it's arguable whether or not it's "against" the Fade's high-damage, high-speed ninja-ness. Ninja stars!
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    edited June 2016
    Just had an idea for stab as a high cooldown ability. See below:

    Stab: fade dashes forward at an unseen speed with his claws out, dealing heavy damage. Cooldown 10s or so. Damage 160 (a0 instagib). Fade can pass through enemies (or not). Would be akin to shadowstep and Genji.

    edit: disclaimer: acid rocket still makes way more sense to me
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Frozen wrote: »
    Just had an idea for stab as a high cooldown ability. See below:

    Stab: fade dashes forward at an unseen speed with his claws out, dealing heavy damage. Cooldown 10s or so. Damage 160 (a0 instagib). Fade can pass through enemies (or not). Would be akin to shadowstep and Genji.

    edit: disclaimer: acid rocket still makes way more sense to me

    Oh God people have to learn that NS2 is not Overwatch and hopefully never will be.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    NS2 had that before overwatch. I'm just saying adding damage to it would work fine
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Fade had Shadowstep, Fade didn't have a cooldown ability.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    So you're telling me that you could press shadowstep over and over and over again and every time you pressed it, the ability worked?
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