Here's why 3rd hive tech being game ending is good.
You'll keep more new players if average round length is 15 minutes and it doesn't pass 20 minutes too often.
You'll retain and gain more players if the game is exciting and enjoyable...
I know it's purely a business decision to appeal to the general public, but I fear the safe rooms that are cropping up on your side of the atlantic may have blunted your taste for adventure:P
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited June 2016
The shortness of the game round actively detracts from my enjoyment, the game for me also suffers overall from a lack of early game engagements. (not that I could stand getting gunned down by lerk spikes for long anyways.) The speed of the player movement on both sides and the shrunken down nature of map sizes means engagements can happen as early at 10-15 seconds of a round, giving no buildup whatsoever.
Edit: Just for clarification a lost game is by all means lost and should end sooner, I just wish the progression of the game didn't reach that point as fast as it does.
Usually I'm the one screaming heads off when my team starts conceding (within reason). Sure, it only works like 1/10th of times, but the effort is still worth it and makes the game thrilling.
People like you are the reason I have to sit through waaay too many drawn out games without a real perspective of winning, begging the enemy team via chat to finally finish us off. Please concede games when appropriate, it will be overall more fun for everyone involved.
Also, please stop double posting. You literally just made three double posts in a row. That's gotta be some sort of record.
Dont tell me what to do, youre not my mother:P im on phone and theres no edit button.
And youre the reason why I lose when theres a perfectly good chance of winning, but someone lost his lifeform and started a whine epidemic. Goes both ways mate. There's also a within reason next to that sentence.
Dont tell me what to do, youre not my mother:P im on phone and theres no edit button.
And youre the reason why I lose when theres a perfectly good chance of winning, but someone lost his lifeform and started a whine epidemic. Goes both ways mate. There's also a within reason next to that sentence.
Usually I'm the one screaming heads off when my team starts conceding (within reason). Sure, it only works like 1/10th of times, but the effort is still worth it and makes the game thrilling.
That's 10% of me preventing you from having a turnaround vs. your 90% chance of preventing me from not having to play a drawn out boring slog of a game.
And in my experience those are very optimistic numbers coming from you.
So please, by all means, concede.
And in my experience those are very optimistic numbers coming from you.
So please, by all means, concede.
Wow, I never knew we were such buddies. You must be well enlightened about me, based on a few forum posts.
I haven\t wrote that I never concede... but you're saying that you can predict the outcome of each round, and that's a bit overconfident even with a silver badge, wouldn't you think?
But as I've said in my first reply, this point is a matter of taste. I like beating odds because it's satisfying - you know, no pain no gain. And you're welcome to your concedes. Thank god for democracy.
but you're saying that you can predict the outcome of each round, and that's a bit overconfident even with a silver badge, wouldn't you think?
You don't need a badge to know that when aliens have contamination, biomass 9, and the entire map.. that the odds of marines coming back are incredibly, extremely slim.
Why drag it out?
As for the "Then why not just have 'Game Over' when Aliens reach Bio 9?" suggestion.. sure.. I'd have no issue with that personally. It's already a timer most don't know exists so making it concrete and part of the game would at least communicate to players more and with any luck encourage marines to pressure pressure pressure instead of holding half the map defensively as aliens slowly out tech them.
I obviously loathe the timer, and have been vocal about such for years.. but since no one is interested in changing it we might as well make it less painful / demotivating.
but you're saying that you can predict the outcome of each round, and that's a bit overconfident even with a silver badge, wouldn't you think?
You don't need a badge to know that when aliens have contamination, biomass 9, and the entire map.. that the odds of marines coming back are incredibly, extremely slim.
Why drag it out?
As for the "Then why not just have 'Game Over' when Aliens reach Bio 9?" suggestion.. sure.. I'd have no issue with that personally. It's already a timer most don't know exists so making it concrete and part of the game would at least communicate to players more and with any luck encourage marines to pressure pressure pressure instead of holding half the map defensively as aliens slowly out tech them.
I obviously loathe the timer, and have been vocal about such for years.. but since no one is interested in changing it we might as well make it less painful / demotivating.
I hear about it only now and quite like the idea of a timer, if it's only for the alien team. It would add an extra layer of asymmetry to the game and spur the marines to act. But I guess the counter argument would be that it probably strips the aliens of late-game abilities which are rarely reached even now. A 2 min timer could be a nice balance
And in my experience those are very optimistic numbers coming from you.
So please, by all means, concede.
Wow, I never knew we were such buddies. You must be well enlightened about me, based on a few forum posts.
I haven\t wrote that I never concede... but you're saying that you can predict the outcome of each round, and that's a bit overconfident even with a silver badge, wouldn't you think?
But as I've said in my first reply, this point is a matter of taste. I like beating odds because it's satisfying - you know, no pain no gain. And you're welcome to your concedes. Thank god for democracy.
To judge whether your numbers are optimistic or not I don't need to know anything about you, just about the numbers. Which is what I was referring to. I'll try to make my points more clear to you in the future.
Also yes, I can predict the outcome of rounds, and these powers have only become greater since I offered a small sacrifice of $25 to the gods of the NS2WC, may they rule for ever from their golden comm chair in the heavens.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Considering the importance of alien biomass is to the game, making it more apparent to both sides could potentially make the game easier to understand as well as a little more cinematic. Like the tsf voice saying "Extreme Kharaa contamination detected, evacuate immediately" when aliens reach Biomass 9 to help push players to end the game a little quicker.
Alternative to that is like a reverse ns1 game end mechanic where after a certain amount of time in biomass 9 the map starts flooding with bacterium and all the marines start slowly dying like aliens did in ns1 when all their hives were destroyed.
Okay, I too will clarify my position on a seemingly lost but possibly recoverable game:
Aliens have 3rd hive growing, 2 suits of upgrades, more than half the resnodes. Marines have no proto, but a player manages to get a sneaky PG in a good location, With a coordinated rush you can take down a hive and get back on track.
Marines have jets, w3. Aliens are on two hives, 1 suite of upgrades, res ratio the same as before just reversed. Marines start to rush the hive, but with a good tunnel you can take down their base, or if not at least do enough damage to have breathing space and recap.
But in my experience, in those situations most people just concede without putting up a fight. Why join and play in the first place then?
I'm possibly contradicting myself a bit, since those scenarios are easier to pull of on pubs... But I'm quite sure we'd agree like 75% of times whether to concede or not :P
Considering the importance of alien biomass is to the game, making it more apparent to both sides could potentially make the game easier to understand as well as a little more cinematic. Like the tsf voice saying "Extreme Kharaa contamination detected, evacuate immediately" when aliens reach Biomass 9 to help push players to end the game a little quicker.
Alternative to that is like a reverse ns1 game end mechanic where after a certain amount of time in biomass 9 the map starts flooding with bacterium and all the marines start slowly dying like aliens did in ns1 when all their hives were destroyed.
This is not the discussion taking place. The topic was around why contamination can be OP, which is a fully grown and fully teched 3rd hive at biomass 9.
Btw, there are many downsides to the soft timer approach.. (Turtles, severely reduces comebacks for both teams, difficult to balance, lack of communication to non veteran players that timer exists, depressing and demotivating end games because there's no reason to keep playing beyond a point - to just name a few)
Supporting it for just the arbitrary notion of asymmetry is a silly thing imo, considering the sheer amount of asymmetric things already existing without downsides, and that most players are unaware of it (even you, as you admitted)
I only mentioned you because the comment by @IeptBarakat resonates with the timer idea, and also adds visual/ambient queues about the time left, making it more easy to understand. Every game lost can be depressing, even if it lasted 5 mins... Sure, some would get demotivated by a countdown, but I personally would put in a last effort to turn things around.
And the title for this thread is THE BIG DISCUSSION THREAD ON THE RECENT AND COMING BALANCE CHANGES. :P
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
You can make an end game timer after biomass an actual mechanic or researched ability. I'm only considering it because I think reducing game time is such an important thing if all this balancing will work.
Replace contaminate with a research that takes 2 minutes or so. When done the entire map starts to become infested with cysts. Structures start to lose armor and marines start to lose health and armor when touching it, which eventually they would have to unless they can kill a hive
You can make an end game timer after biomass an actual mechanic or researched ability. I'm only considering it because I think reducing game time is such an important thing if all this balancing will work.
Replace contaminate with a research that takes 2 minutes or so. When done the entire map starts to become infested with cysts. Structures start to lose armor and marines start to lose health and armor when touching it, which eventually they would have to unless they can kill a hive
Could the cysts be destroyed temporarily, or would they be invulnerable?
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
I'm just brainstorming of course so it doesn't really matter exactly the mechanics. But I did state that the map would be infested WITHOUT cysts by this ability. Because it has to be literally game ending in some fashion where the only counter-play is actually killing hive 3, not killing cysts to delay.
My train of thought being:
Aliens obtain Hive 3
Alien Comm chooses either to get upgrades to help team protect hive 3, or rush contaminate. This would depend on the status of the game and how much help aliens need to defend it. Good decision-making addition tbh
In either case it will take 3-6 minutes to get contaminate. So hive 3 is NOT instant win. Very strong yes, not instant
Marines have to kill the new hive, or another hive ASAP. They've had their time to garner upgrades and save pres for a big last ditch push, since getting contaminate likely took the comm some time.
If marines are unsuccessful they suffocate, die, and lose pretty quickly after.
Voila, no concede, no divided torture. Just dynamic gameplay forcing teams to not turtle an advantage
The thing about long games is that only some people like really long time constantly. Most long games are not consistently exciting. Consistent short games keep people playing. You might like the late game, but most people prefer early and mid game pretty equally. These players won't say they don't enjoy an occasional 60 minute round, but they wouldn't be happy if they had to play a 60 minute round every single time, or even half the time. Or even 1/4 the time.
When you have a 60 minute rounds it breaks down like this:
How is that fair to the people that want to play their favorite parts of the game more often? I'm certainly biased, but it makes me and lots of others fucking quit after the 60 minute round.
So everyone here knows, the average round length is ~15 minutes. The middle 50% of games fall between about 3 minutes and about 28 minutes.
Different topic:
I don't like the current mechanic of contamination. I think it is a poor move to have it able to win, or even destroy structures, without any other player input. It feels cheap to use. It is effective at the goal of ending the game. I think there are other things that could be done that would end the game but include player input.
Marines have cat packs which enhance a player. Aliens have drifter abilities. What if contamination worked like a super catpack that did umbra, enzyme, mucous membrane, and hallucinations in an AOE area. It would have no delay but cost like 20 tres or something. This would break turtles and end games with player input. I am just spitballing ideas here though.
Frozen's idea actually sounds like fun, especially compared to the current mechanic.
I'm just brainstorming of course so it doesn't really matter exactly the mechanics.
Sure, just provoking some thought :] I could imagine the cysts being destroyable so marines can setup a forward PG, but with more HP than regular cysts and they would grow back automatically. Simple infestation without cysts would be more easy for devs to implement though.
I'm not saying that I prefer long rounds, but totally cutting away the option for late comebacks just for the sake of shorter rounds decreases excitement, methinks.
A big idea I just had that I really like. Feedback wanted.
Remove enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations from drifters.
Make drifters 3 tres.
Make enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations work like bonewall or rupture. You can only use enzme on infestation for example.
Buff enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations because they only work on infestation.
Make contaminate work like it used to.
Make contaminate last 30 seconds, unless killed.
Move contaminate to biomass 7.
At biomass 9, make contaminate have an AOE umbra effect. This would replace the
This would still be a really strong because it would allow you to use the now buffed enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations anywhere on the map.
At biomass 9, contaminate would have umbra effect and help break turtles/end games.
This would also have the following QOL beneifits:
1) Enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations would be easier to use, and require less micromanagment. Skill floor lowered.
2) Enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations would be used more because they are easier to use and don't have the risk of losing an expensive drifter.
3) Contaminate lasts longer, so it would be easier to use, and easier to shift structures into contaminate.
This would also curb marine aggression on RT's because enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations would be used more and were buffed.
Flamethrowers could also be made more valuable in that they remove enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations making it easier for marines to harass back res. It would be cool if flamethrowers were excellent and killing RT's. It would complement all of this well.
A big idea I just had that I really like. Feedback wanted.
Remove enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations from drifters.
Make drifters 3 tres.
Make enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations work like bonewall or rupture. You can only use enzme on infestation for example.
Buff enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations because they only work on infestation.
Make contaminate work like it used to.
Make contaminate last 30 seconds, unless killed.
Move contaminate to biomass 7.
At biomass 9, make contaminate have an AOE umbra effect. This would replace the
This would still be a really strong because it would allow you to use the now buffed enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations anywhere on the map.
At biomass 9, contaminate would have umbra effect and help break turtles/end games.
This would also have the following QOL beneifits:
1) Enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations would be easier to use, and require less micromanagment. Skill floor lowered.
2) Enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations would be used more because they are easier to use and don't have the risk of losing an expensive drifter.
3) Contaminate lasts longer, so it would be easier to use, and easier to shift structures into contaminate.
This would also curb marine aggression on RT's because enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations would be used more and were buffed.
Flamethrowers could also be made more valuable in that they remove enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations making it easier for marines to harass back res. It would be cool if flamethrowers were excellent and killing RT's. It would complement all of this well.
con:
lower skill floor (challenge is a fixation of mine)
drifters would be reduced to two functions, one is building
no more early support for aliens, baserush for eg.
buffed spells (not sure if needed, or only increase effects a tidbit)
pro:
more drifter scouting due to lower cost, as the other remaining function
cysts are more important
flamers are more important
harvester defense, current mist should be taken out though
better late game ending mechanic for aliens
As far as I remember, putting those spells as a drifter ability was a conscious decision to emphasize asymmetry of teams, but limiting the abilities to cysted areas still preserves some of that
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
The more I think about it the more I like adding a soft timer to max biomass level (per map?) to get the round to end quicker, but with the chance for a last minute hive kill to stop it of course.
A quick and dirty mockup of what it could look like for the marine team. Important to note that it should only start after all the alien tech is unlocked otherwise players won't get to enjoy their biomass 9 upgrades.
Comments
You'll keep more new players if average round length is 15 minutes and it doesn't pass 20 minutes too often.
You'll retain and gain more players if the game is exciting and enjoyable...
I know it's purely a business decision to appeal to the general public, but I fear the safe rooms that are cropping up on your side of the atlantic may have blunted your taste for adventure:P
There's plenty more reasons that games lose excitement and enjoyabity as they drag on however.
If you have 4 amazing 15 minute rounds in a row you'll keep playing, win or lose.
If you have 1 dragged out 60 minute game everyone is going to take a break and he servers dead, win or lose.
Edit: Just for clarification a lost game is by all means lost and should end sooner, I just wish the progression of the game didn't reach that point as fast as it does.
People like you are the reason I have to sit through waaay too many drawn out games without a real perspective of winning, begging the enemy team via chat to finally finish us off. Please concede games when appropriate, it will be overall more fun for everyone involved.
Also, please stop double posting. You literally just made three double posts in a row. That's gotta be some sort of record.
And youre the reason why I lose when theres a perfectly good chance of winning, but someone lost his lifeform and started a whine epidemic. Goes both ways mate. There's also a within reason next to that sentence.
What phone do you have?
iOS
Android
Right, you got me there. I'm blocking webfonts on my phone and the cog must be font-awesome or something... sorry for the double posts
You yourself said:
That's 10% of me preventing you from having a turnaround vs. your 90% chance of preventing me from not having to play a drawn out boring slog of a game.
And in my experience those are very optimistic numbers coming from you.
So please, by all means, concede.
Wow, I never knew we were such buddies. You must be well enlightened about me, based on a few forum posts.
I haven\t wrote that I never concede... but you're saying that you can predict the outcome of each round, and that's a bit overconfident even with a silver badge, wouldn't you think?
But as I've said in my first reply, this point is a matter of taste. I like beating odds because it's satisfying - you know, no pain no gain. And you're welcome to your concedes. Thank god for democracy.
Why drag it out?
As for the "Then why not just have 'Game Over' when Aliens reach Bio 9?" suggestion.. sure.. I'd have no issue with that personally. It's already a timer most don't know exists so making it concrete and part of the game would at least communicate to players more and with any luck encourage marines to pressure pressure pressure instead of holding half the map defensively as aliens slowly out tech them.
I obviously loathe the timer, and have been vocal about such for years.. but since no one is interested in changing it we might as well make it less painful / demotivating.
I hear about it only now and quite like the idea of a timer, if it's only for the alien team. It would add an extra layer of asymmetry to the game and spur the marines to act. But I guess the counter argument would be that it probably strips the aliens of late-game abilities which are rarely reached even now. A 2 min timer could be a nice balance
To judge whether your numbers are optimistic or not I don't need to know anything about you, just about the numbers. Which is what I was referring to. I'll try to make my points more clear to you in the future.
Also yes, I can predict the outcome of rounds, and these powers have only become greater since I offered a small sacrifice of $25 to the gods of the NS2WC, may they rule for ever from their golden comm chair in the heavens.
Alternative to that is like a reverse ns1 game end mechanic where after a certain amount of time in biomass 9 the map starts flooding with bacterium and all the marines start slowly dying like aliens did in ns1 when all their hives were destroyed.
Okay, I too will clarify my position on a seemingly lost but possibly recoverable game:
Aliens have 3rd hive growing, 2 suits of upgrades, more than half the resnodes. Marines have no proto, but a player manages to get a sneaky PG in a good location, With a coordinated rush you can take down a hive and get back on track.
Marines have jets, w3. Aliens are on two hives, 1 suite of upgrades, res ratio the same as before just reversed. Marines start to rush the hive, but with a good tunnel you can take down their base, or if not at least do enough damage to have breathing space and recap.
But in my experience, in those situations most people just concede without putting up a fight. Why join and play in the first place then?
I'm possibly contradicting myself a bit, since those scenarios are easier to pull of on pubs... But I'm quite sure we'd agree like 75% of times whether to concede or not :P
@IronHorse about your timer... :]
Btw, there are many downsides to the soft timer approach.. (Turtles, severely reduces comebacks for both teams, difficult to balance, lack of communication to non veteran players that timer exists, depressing and demotivating end games because there's no reason to keep playing beyond a point - to just name a few)
Supporting it for just the arbitrary notion of asymmetry is a silly thing imo, considering the sheer amount of asymmetric things already existing without downsides, and that most players are unaware of it (even you, as you admitted)
And the title for this thread is THE BIG DISCUSSION THREAD ON THE RECENT AND COMING BALANCE CHANGES. :P
Replace contaminate with a research that takes 2 minutes or so. When done the entire map starts to become infested with cysts. Structures start to lose armor and marines start to lose health and armor when touching it, which eventually they would have to unless they can kill a hive
Could the cysts be destroyed temporarily, or would they be invulnerable?
My train of thought being:
The thing about long games is that only some people like really long time constantly. Most long games are not consistently exciting. Consistent short games keep people playing. You might like the late game, but most people prefer early and mid game pretty equally. These players won't say they don't enjoy an occasional 60 minute round, but they wouldn't be happy if they had to play a 60 minute round every single time, or even half the time. Or even 1/4 the time.
When you have a 60 minute rounds it breaks down like this:
Early: ~4 minutes
Mid: ~8 minutes
Late: ~48 minutes
How is that fair to the people that want to play their favorite parts of the game more often? I'm certainly biased, but it makes me and lots of others fucking quit after the 60 minute round.
Different topic:
I don't like the current mechanic of contamination. I think it is a poor move to have it able to win, or even destroy structures, without any other player input. It feels cheap to use. It is effective at the goal of ending the game. I think there are other things that could be done that would end the game but include player input.
Marines have cat packs which enhance a player. Aliens have drifter abilities. What if contamination worked like a super catpack that did umbra, enzyme, mucous membrane, and hallucinations in an AOE area. It would have no delay but cost like 20 tres or something. This would break turtles and end games with player input. I am just spitballing ideas here though.
Frozen's idea actually sounds like fun, especially compared to the current mechanic.
Sure, just provoking some thought :] I could imagine the cysts being destroyable so marines can setup a forward PG, but with more HP than regular cysts and they would grow back automatically. Simple infestation without cysts would be more easy for devs to implement though.
I'm not saying that I prefer long rounds, but totally cutting away the option for late comebacks just for the sake of shorter rounds decreases excitement, methinks.
Remove enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations from drifters.
Make drifters 3 tres.
Make enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations work like bonewall or rupture. You can only use enzme on infestation for example.
Buff enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations because they only work on infestation.
Make contaminate work like it used to.
Make contaminate last 30 seconds, unless killed.
Move contaminate to biomass 7.
At biomass 9, make contaminate have an AOE umbra effect. This would replace the
This would still be a really strong because it would allow you to use the now buffed enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations anywhere on the map.
At biomass 9, contaminate would have umbra effect and help break turtles/end games.
This would also have the following QOL beneifits:
1) Enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations would be easier to use, and require less micromanagment. Skill floor lowered.
2) Enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations would be used more because they are easier to use and don't have the risk of losing an expensive drifter.
3) Contaminate lasts longer, so it would be easier to use, and easier to shift structures into contaminate.
This would also curb marine aggression on RT's because enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations would be used more and were buffed.
Flamethrowers could also be made more valuable in that they remove enzyme, mucous membrane, and halucinations making it easier for marines to harass back res. It would be cool if flamethrowers were excellent and killing RT's. It would complement all of this well.
con:
lower skill floor (challenge is a fixation of mine)
drifters would be reduced to two functions, one is building
no more early support for aliens, baserush for eg.
buffed spells (not sure if needed, or only increase effects a tidbit)
pro:
more drifter scouting due to lower cost, as the other remaining function
cysts are more important
flamers are more important
harvester defense, current mist should be taken out though
better late game ending mechanic for aliens
As far as I remember, putting those spells as a drifter ability was a conscious decision to emphasize asymmetry of teams, but limiting the abilities to cysted areas still preserves some of that
A quick and dirty mockup of what it could look like for the marine team. Important to note that it should only start after all the alien tech is unlocked otherwise players won't get to enjoy their biomass 9 upgrades.