What to do with gorge tunnels now?

The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 770 Advanced user
Because of the (bad) pres change to the game and new alien starting res of 12, gorges are not able to drop a tunnel now at the start of a game. What to do about it? Make tunnel costs even lower?
«134

Comments

  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 724 Advanced user
    edited June 2016
    They should nerf tunnels again.. They're obviously way too overpowered... I mean lets think about it

    You can't drop one in the beginning of the game (this makes it really easy for Marines to do things like take nanogrid on veil)
    You can't place them anywhere that isn't WAY out in the open (literally THOUSANDS of places you could put them removed in order to fix 3-5 "glitched" spots across all maps)
    They are hilariously weak when dropped until they mature (a single Marine can drop one in no time flat)

    Clearly that's WAY too overpowered and unbalanced! They need to be nerfed more so they cost at least 10 res to drop each side.. And tie them to biomass also so you need at least 6 biomass to get them...

    /sarcasm..




    They should put tunnels back to the way they were when I started playing (around 249) Back then they were actually useful.
    zeep
  • TriggerHappyBroTriggerHappyBro Ohio Join Date: 2016-05-23 Member: 217383Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 31 Advanced user
    You used to have to wait until 1:00 before you could drop the other end of your gorge tunnel. Now you have to wait until 1:36.
    If a minute in counts as at the start, I'd say a bit past a minute and a half in does, too.

    Also, if you had 0 pres as a gorge, it now takes 60% less time to gain enough to place your tunnel.
    Kasharic_INTER_
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 770 Advanced user
    No, that is way too late. 1 minute into the game is not the start of the game.

    And yea, the tunnel cost in vanilla was too high before. In comp mod though it was possible to go gorge and drop both entrances and I think it is very much needed.
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 675 Advanced user
    Compmod is the reason you could drop a tunnel at the beginning of a round, Vanilla hasn't had the ability to drop tunnels immediately for a LONG time, its got absolutely nothing to do with the Pres changes.

    FFS home, if you're going to argue about something, do your research first.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
    AurOn2
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 770 Advanced user
    edited June 2016
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Compmod is the reason you could drop a tunnel at the beginning of a round, Vanilla hasn't had the ability to drop tunnels immediately for a LONG time, its got absolutely nothing to do with the Pres changes.

    FFS home, if you're going to argue about something, do your research first.

    I did, comp mod tunnel cost was 3, vanilla tunnel cost is 3 now too. So the problem is pres change now. Before, the problem was that the cost was too high.
  • DilligafDilligaf Join Date: 2014-05-25 Member: 196238Members Posts: 55 Advanced user
    I remember when i could drop instant tunnels in the ventilation shaft... oooh what a time that was.
    zeep
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,730 Advanced user
    Let's take a step back. Why should gorges be able to drop tunnels at the start of a round?
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    IronHorse_INTER_AurOn2
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 770 Advanced user
    1. To not auto lose on Veil.
    2. To give aliens the option to start with a gorge. By removing the option to drop a tunnel as the game opener you are removing one possible strat from the aliens. Less options means less depth and less fun.
    2coughNordiccooliticOscarTheCouch
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 724 Advanced user
    edited June 2016
    1. To not auto lose on Veil.

    Well to be fair for Aliens I don't think it's auto lose on Veil now.. it's just much harder for Aliens to win.

    They have to devote a significant portion of their team to holding nano until the tunnel goes up (not to mention comm having to cyst there now) which lets Marines easily take the rest of the map without having to worry much (if at all) about defending their back RT's...



    Post edited by MoFo1 on
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Let's take a step back. Why should gorges be able to drop tunnels at the start of a round?

    Why should it take any longer?
  • NexZone30NexZone30 Join Date: 2013-06-27 Member: 185719Members Posts: 25 Advanced user
    edited June 2016
    As someone who plays almost always gorge while playing aliens (Pretty sure of my 1900 hours, 1000+ of those hours have been gorge...) it's just tedious to have to wait for a tunnel to drop. Literally, as a good gorge, a tunnel is your life line for escape and juking marines. And on any map, there are marine players who get to locations far, far before aliens do IronHorse, especially a gorge. In some cases, waiting a minute or two to drop a tunnel can be a death trap for a gorge. To a degree, it determines whether or not a gorge can set up a tunnel or not at a location due to the timing. And early game, if a gorge has no tunnel and his/her skulks died, you're as good as a dead gorge... Basically wasting all your res for nothing. Ultimately, especially for new players, I'd give them a sure fire way to use their res meaningfully. A gorge dying with half a tunnel down is not meaningful or helpful! (It's also extremely frustrating...)
    Nordiccoolitic
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 675 Advanced user
    In comp mod, having the tunnel was needed because an organized team would be able to crush aliens without that needed mobility in certain strats.

    But heres the thing... this isn't comp mod... vanilla has NEVER been comp mod... Gorges have had to wait for a tunnel for a LONG time... on public games, it hasn't caused any issues.

    The ONLY reason people are concerned now is because comp mod, is down. well, surprise, Vanilla is balance around 8 vs 8 (ish) play with public players in mind... things are going to be different to comp mod... get used to it.

    I get it, comp mod was great, it had a LOT of time to iron out balance issues while the game wasn't touched for a REALLY LONG time, it got to the point where changes had to be done with great care or the "community" would practically riot (something that has now moved across to the vanilla forums it seems.)
    But the days of compmod are gone, and big changes are being made to vanilla, let the past be in the past, move on and enjoy what the future hold for NS2... or do like a lot of people did and move on... I hear overwatch is a bandwagon now.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,730 Advanced user
    Neoken wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Let's take a step back. Why should gorges be able to drop tunnels at the start of a round?

    Why should it take any longer?

    My point was not to have an answer myself, because I don't know. I want others to elaborate why a tunnel a gorge should or should not be able to drop a tunnel at the start.
    1. To not auto lose on Veil.
    2. To give aliens the option to start with a gorge. By removing the option to drop a tunnel as the game opener you are removing one possible strat from the aliens. Less options means less depth and less fun.

    1. It is not auto lose. Veil has a 50.7% alien win rate without gorges being able to drop at the start.
    2. The fun argument is difficult because that is subjective. You could take it to an extreme and say that we should allow all players to evolve any life form at any point in the game would be more fun because it allows more options. Would that be a good change? I don't think that would. I don't find this to be a compelling argument in favor of dropping gorge tunnels at the start, at least how you put it.
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    The typical argument seems to be "because Marines can't drop a PG at the beginning" - Though that's an extremely weak argument for an asymmetrical game like this.
    I think the game should try to remain asymmetrical where it can. I do agree it is also a poor argument. Making an asymmetrical mechanic for the sake of being asymmetrical is a poor idea.
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Because the Mobile team doesn't need additional mobility at the start of the round??
    Could you please elaborate further. I know you are a vocal opponent of gorges being able to drop tunnels at the start. What is the worst that could happen if gorges could drop tunnels at the start.
    NexZone30 wrote: »
    As someone who plays almost always gorge while playing aliens (Pretty sure of my 1900 hours, 1000+ of those hours have been gorge...) it's just tedious to have to wait for a tunnel to drop. Literally, as a good gorge, a tunnel is your life line for escape and juking marines. And on any map, there are marine players who get to locations far, far before aliens do IronHorse, especially a gorge. In some cases, waiting a minute or two to drop a tunnel can be a death trap for a gorge. To a degree, it determines whether or not a gorge can set up a tunnel or not at a location due to the timing. And early game, if a gorge has no tunnel and his/her skulks died, you're as good as a dead gorge... Basically wasting all your res for nothing. Ultimately, especially for new players, I'd give them a sure fire way to use their res meaningfully. A gorge dying with half a tunnel down is not meaningful or helpful! (It's also extremely frustrating...)
    In my opinion, this is the most compelling argument I have seen so far for gorges being able to drop tunnels at the start. It would be a quality of life change at best. I ask you @NexZone30 is gorge tunnels being able to be dropped at the beginning of a round really worth the development time over other things that could be worked on?
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • NexZone30NexZone30 Join Date: 2013-06-27 Member: 185719Members Posts: 25 Advanced user
    edited June 2016
    @Nordic I don't know if it would be that hard to implement. At least it would mean changing the resource value of a tunnel to one less. I'm not a coder, but I have some general knowledge. Wouldn't that mean altering a number in one or two lines of code? So seconds maybe?

    Is this a massively needed change? We've survived long without it, but just in the sense of quality of life, it may be worth it. It's up for people to decide. For older players, it may mean little to no difference. However, for new players it may be a huge change. (Seriously, a lot of new players playng gorge need this change. It's so sad to see a new player die before dropping a tunnel.)
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,730 Advanced user
    To add to my point, if it took 5 minutes to change it, that is 5 minutes that could be spent on literally anything else. I don't know how long it would take myself. I do know it would be a little more complicated than changing a 3 to a 0 in the code.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • ResistorResistor Russia Join Date: 2014-08-01 Member: 197747Members Posts: 33 Advanced user
    edited June 2016
    I don't get why aliens can not hold nano first two minutes of game.
    Easy strategy:
    1. Spread in two groups: system and west.
    2. Done :)
    If marines decided to push hard, like 5 of them on the one side, and you feel that nano probably is lost. Then just rush main. Or bite rts.

    Really, guys, I'm sure that you all are already doing this while playing. All this theorizing around holding nano with/without a tunnel is unnesessary. Most people know how to do it, and succeed in it, mostly.

    Do not see big problem in forcing gorges play a little more careful in early game.
    Rookie gorges are doomed anyway, like avery other lifeform played by a newcomer :/

    P.S. Just noticed, that ns2_veil is not the main subject of discussion. Sorry.
    Vetinarid0ped0gIronHorsesoccerguy243
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,477 Advanced user
    1. Tunnels were not always in the game, and it was better without them. Gorges certainly did not have enough to do, I'll cede that. But they could be made important in other better, more active ways, akin to the web changes. Add more reliance on gorges to build structures is the best start.
    2. If you build your comms resource towers before you go to drop a tunnel he'd save res on a drifter, or 2. This would allow him to drop a crag to help you defend a point with skulks while you wait for your tunnel. Your tunnel which you would now have faster because gorges build rts faster than drifters.
    3. At nano with current mechanics there's nothing stopping the comm from dropping cysts for you to build there with 2 rts and no tunnel. You could get some clogs up to help defend the point in time with skulks. The tunnels are just lazy.
    4. Why do aliens even need phase gates? The game is asymmetrical.
    mattji104
    IronHorse
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 822 Advanced user
    edited June 2016
    So you guys suggest we should be balancing around Veil - Nano now and in favor of Aliens eventhough the Gorges got a serious (but welcome) buff and Aliens were dominating Veil?
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
    Nordic
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,730 Advanced user
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    So you guys suggest we should be balancing around Veil - Nano now and in favor of Aliens eventhough the Gorges got a serious (but welcome) buff and Aliens were dominating Veil?

    The data does not support that aliens were dominating veil.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 850 Advanced user
    edited June 2016
    Nordic wrote: »
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    So you guys suggest we should be balancing around Veil - Nano now and in favor of Aliens eventhough the Gorges got a serious (but welcome) buff and Aliens were dominating Veil?

    The data does not support that aliens were dominating veil.

    Only believe the statistics that you've forged personally! /Churchill (- i think)/

    Public games aren't really that representative... Without proper communication you'll most probably lose.
    With a decent team if aliens get hold of Nano with a good gorge and can stick to it for 5 mins, the game is practically over, provided the skills are balanced.

    Although it would be foolish to balance the game based on one room in one map
    Post edited by .trixX. on
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    migalski
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 850 Advanced user
    .trixX. wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    So you guys suggest we should be balancing around Veil - Nano now and in favor of Aliens eventhough the Gorges got a serious (but welcome) buff and Aliens were dominating Veil?

    The data does not support that aliens were dominating veil.

    Only believe the statistics that you've forget personally! /Churchill (- i think)/

    Public games aren't really that representative... Without proper communication you'll most probably lose.
    With a decent team if aliens get hold of Nano with a good gorge and can stick to it for 5 mins, the game is practically over, provided the skills are balanced.

    Although it would be foolish to balance the game based on one room in one map

    "Public games aren't really that representative"... of what?
    Public games are definitely representative of public play, at the very least.

    [...] of balance issues.

    One player can easily wreck a whole game, for eg promising to go gorge and then spending his pres on pretty flowers first instead of dropping the tunnel.
    Proper matches where the players work together will give a much better overview of how well balanced the game is.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    migalski
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members Posts: 495 Advanced user
    Yes agree. Games are way too random. No consistency.
    SupaDupaNoodle
    I'm a signature virus :D Copy me into your signature!
    (Ribo @ Jan 2 2013, 10:43 AM) wrote »
     ##EMPHASIS ADDED##
    Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for invisible, double armor rhinos. Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino. The marines lose.


    Also, a good rule of thumb is that a rookie is equivalent to an empty player slot on a team.

  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation Posts: 721 Advanced user
    "Public games aren't really that representative"... of what?
    Public games are definitely representative of public play, at the very least.

    The true Scotsman is lurking, quick, spray him a generous dose of F0rdPrefect ... pscchhht pschhht ... die you sniptch !
    Freak out
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 822 Advanced user
    edited June 2016
    The data does not support that aliens were dominating veil.
    OK. Dominating was definetly the wrong word here. How does this sound: "win rates were somewhat balanced on Veil and public games, slightly being in favor of Aliens which might aswell be a statistical flux and Gorge Tunnel changes didn't budge that number considerably"?
    1. It is not auto lose. Veil has a 50.7% alien win rate without gorges being able to drop at the start.

    I like how you can just bring forth the facts with numbers and statistics in any discussion and take the wind out of somebodys sail.
    The problem is, this approach doesn't work with extremists / religious people. (In this case: "UWE are always the bad guys").
    The facts potentially shatter their world view so they errect walls around them in form of silly stories and then they cludge to those tightly.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
    Nordic
Sign In or Register to comment.