The Alien Vision change is a change for the worse

SintaxSintax Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10581Members
edited May 2016 in NS2 General Discussion
The removal of outlines from alien's default view is the most baffling change I've seen in this game yet. Alien's normal vision used to be the most minimal version of alien vision, where only important outlines were shown. This kept you from having to use alien vision 24/7 because of the clear advantage it gives. Now alien vision must be turned on at all times (and turned back on every time you respawn, and every time you come out of an egg) in order to keep this clear advantage. This means 100% of a competant alien player's time must be spent in the extremely colored and shaded alien vision. Personally I dont like having to use this view, but after the change you are forced to turn it on after every respawn. Without it, you will miss marines guaranteed.

This is also another change which only goes to hurt new players. Those players will now start at a further detriment against experienced players since they will likely not even know that alien vision exists, and if they do know they will forget to turn it on constantly, as is required now.

This is an extreme change to a core NS2 mechanic which is of absolutely no value to the alien team. Now they've the inconvenience of turning and leaving alien vision on for the duration of the match, else lose a clear advantage. I honestly have no idea what the developers think this is supposed to accomplish.
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Comments

  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Keats wrote: »
    Sintax wrote: »
    the extremely colored and shaded alien vision
    The current AV in vanilla is Huze's Minimal. I'm not sure I would describe it the way you have. Moreover, it's been a very popular AV for a long time, precisely because it affects vision in a very un-garish way. To be sure, marines' outlines can be a bit strong, especially to people accustomed to the version that used to ship with NS2+.

    The removal of outlines in regular vision can certainly be argued as a bad choice. But with AV on automatically, does it affect gameplay? Simply do nothing, and alien vision will always be on, and you will always see outlines.

    This is true; however, the default vision we used to have was arguably prettier (no shader outlines on everything) while doing the exact same job - and it still gave you the option of using another alien vision on top of it. You got two in one, so to speak. He's got a point in that alien default vision is utterly useless now.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    Weird that it's hard to see marines now if you don't have alien vision on. Was not the case before 299(/8?). In fact I hardly ever used alien vision in the past, but now it is almost a must for engagements.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    edited May 2016
    Huze minimal AV is by far the best, but they should've chosen the (always on) version for it being off, with additional highlights for the walls/floor/etc when it's on...

    That would've made nearly everyone happy i think... I strongly recommend people try huze minimal av (always on) version before calling it bad...
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    rantology wrote: »
    Alien vision is almost like crosshairs, in the way that it can be a very subjective thing for people on which kind they enjoy. If you liked the pre-299 Alien vision (the one with the outlines), you can subscribe to this workshop mod to go back to using it (Or browse the workshop to find one to your liking, there are many!).

    Alienvision also turns on by default now, if you wish to turn this feature off you can use NS2+ to do so.

    This is the biggest problem with anything we do with AV at this point. There have been so many iterations and almost every iteration (no one liked FantaVision) has both fans and detractors.
  • fleasfleas Join Date: 2007-10-13 Member: 62623Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2016
    the FantaVision I believe was initially to be like an alien's take on Nightvision.

    Because marines have a cone view via Flashlight, Aliens should have the upperhand by having their own take on "Nightvision"(fullscreen view).

    Its extremely bright in normally lit rooms(same characteristics to real life nightvision).


    So basically you are not suppose to constantly use Alien vision but only when the lights are out.

    At least that what i take from when ns2 had FantaVision.



    I thought it was okay, a bit too bright for my taste but I can see why this was implemented. But of course comparing to any other alien visions out there, the other alien vision is a lot better
  • SintaxSintax Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10581Members
    edited May 2016
    Keats wrote: »
    As of a few updates ago, alien vision turns on automatically. This has been an option in NS2+ for ages, and was recently merged to vanilla. If AV is not automatically turning on for you, then perhaps the setting is off in NS2+ and it is overriding vanilla.
    I definitely have to turn it on every single time I spawn. And every time I come out of an egg. I've specced plenty of players who never have alien vision on, so it seems like this is the default for plenty of people. Just another bug/feature that will turn people off to the game I think. There's no option in the "options" menu, if there's some special menu for NS+ I can't find it and I can't imagine newer players would be able to either.

    Just to reiterate: It does NOT turn on by default for me. I understand "preferences" and how the "minimal AV" is "not bad" in some peoples' opinions, but I dont like having to look at glowing marines all day. It looks bad. If we are talking about preferences, why not leave the AV the way it has been for years and add an OPTION to the OPTIONS menu? All this change has done is remove enemy visibility for some fraction of players.
  • SintaxSintax Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10581Members
    edited May 2016
    rantology wrote: »
    Alien vision is almost like crosshairs, in the way that it can be a very subjective thing for people on which kind they enjoy. If you liked the pre-299 Alien vision (the one with the outlines), you can subscribe to this workshop mod to go back to using it (Or browse the workshop to find one to your liking, there are many!).

    Alienvision also turns on by default now, if you wish to turn this feature off you can use NS2+ to do so.

    It does not turn on by default. Please don't brush this off as "o well some people might or might not like the huge change we made to core gameplay." It's broken now. And default alien vision is now useless. I would rather not have to install a third party mod to restore core functionality to my game, but I suppose that's just my preference. Furthermore, if that workshop mod does return outlines to default vision on aliens, then that gives me an advantage, and puts newer players at a further disadvantage than they already are at, which I thought was counter to the focus of these new patches.
    Narfwak wrote: »
    rantology wrote: »
    Alien vision is almost like crosshairs, in the way that it can be a very subjective thing for people on which kind they enjoy. If you liked the pre-299 Alien vision (the one with the outlines), you can subscribe to this workshop mod to go back to using it (Or browse the workshop to find one to your liking, there are many!).

    Alienvision also turns on by default now, if you wish to turn this feature off you can use NS2+ to do so.

    This is the biggest problem with anything we do with AV at this point. There have been so many iterations and almost every iteration (no one liked FantaVision) has both fans and detractors.

    If it's such a problem why are you guys messing with it?
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Sintax wrote: »
    rantology wrote: »
    Alien vision is almost like crosshairs, in the way that it can be a very subjective thing for people on which kind they enjoy. If you liked the pre-299 Alien vision (the one with the outlines), you can subscribe to this workshop mod to go back to using it (Or browse the workshop to find one to your liking, there are many!).

    Alienvision also turns on by default now, if you wish to turn this feature off you can use NS2+ to do so.

    It does not turn on by default. Please don't brush this off as "o well some people might or might not like the huge change we made to core gameplay." It's broken now. And default alien vision is now useless. I would rather not have to install a third party mod to restore core functionality to my game, but I suppose that's just my preference. Furthermore, if that workshop mod does return outlines to default vision on aliens, then that gives me an advantage, and puts newer players at a further disadvantage than they already are at, which I thought was counter to the focus of these new patches.
    Narfwak wrote: »
    rantology wrote: »
    Alien vision is almost like crosshairs, in the way that it can be a very subjective thing for people on which kind they enjoy. If you liked the pre-299 Alien vision (the one with the outlines), you can subscribe to this workshop mod to go back to using it (Or browse the workshop to find one to your liking, there are many!).

    Alienvision also turns on by default now, if you wish to turn this feature off you can use NS2+ to do so.

    This is the biggest problem with anything we do with AV at this point. There have been so many iterations and almost every iteration (no one liked FantaVision) has both fans and detractors.

    If it's such a problem why are you guys messing with it?

    Well you will notice that pretty much every server runs with NS2+ and you should really use its config options.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    edited May 2016
    Sintax wrote: »

    If it's such a problem why are you guys messing with it?

    This... While I myself don't care about such a change since I use huze always on... Why did you guys feel the need to mess with AV again??

    Couldn't your time have been better spent on other changes/improvements that would actually do something to help balance or retain new players..

    Seems to me like changing AV again was nothing but a waste of time... Were you guys getting a lot of complaints about the pre 300 AV or something??
  • SintaxSintax Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10581Members
    edited May 2016

    Well you will notice that pretty much every server runs with NS2+ and you should really use its config options.

    While I appreciate you reiterating the same point that's been made a bunch of times without realizing my point, I would just say that I've played this game over 1000 hours and never touched the NS+ menu. And yet apparently this option is was defaulted to off for me. Can you please understand how this could be a problem for many players, especially less technically savvy, who are not knowledgeable about an options menu that only appears when you connect to certain servers?
  • SintaxSintax Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10581Members
    Did some spectating to see how many players use alien vision:

    Ghouls Box: 2 players / 8
    House of Awesome: 3 players / 10
    Tactical Freedom: 3 players / 8

    Hard to catch people spawning, but best I could figure the people with AV off spawned with it off. I caught 1 guy spawning and turning alien vision on, which means it was defaulted off for him but he turned it on every life.

    Bring back player outlines when alien vision is turned off please thank you.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Sintax wrote: »

    Well you will notice that pretty much every server runs with NS2+ and you should really use its config options.

    While I appreciate you reiterating the same point that's been made a bunch of times without realizing my point, I would just say that I've played this game over 1000 hours and never touched the NS+ menu. And yet apparently this option is was defaulted to off for me. Can you please understand how this could be a problem for many players, especially less technically savvy, who are not knowledgeable about an options menu that only appears when you connect to certain servers?

    No sorry, I cannot understand this how someone with 1000 hours is complaining about something that is so easy to change. "certain servers" lol, 19/20 servers run NS2+ and when you click on the YES/NO toggle in your mod menu you can even find the NS2+ options menu in the main menu. This might take you 30 seconds.

    I agree that the NS2+ alien vision options should be in vanilla though.
  • SintaxSintax Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10581Members
    It's not about me and my 1000 hours. I'm trying to represent the hundreds of players with the same problem that are not going to post on this forum.... I understand you are smarter and better at these things than me and other players, but this is still a problem.
  • soccerguy243soccerguy243 Join Date: 2012-12-22 Member: 175920Members, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Sintax wrote: »
    It's not about me and my 1000 hours. I'm trying to represent the hundreds of players with the same problem that are not going to post on this forum.... I understand you are smarter and better at these things than me and other players, but this is still a problem.

    and by hundreds you mean <200?
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    I asked Remi about this, and the default state both in the vanilla game and in NS2+ for AV is ON- however when Remi changed the default state for NS2+ he did not reset it for existing players, so this is likely why you had to go into your options and change it. Both are defaulted to ON for new players, however.
  • alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
    We always need to have alien vision on or be handicapped.
    We always need to have health bars on or be handicapped.
    We always need to have minimal infestation on or be handicapped.

    How the game looks has changed for the better or worse. Alien vision should always be on with no way to turn it off. If you want to confuse players then let it remain an option.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited May 2016
    @Sintax

    This should be what every single player sees by default, and if you aren't seeing this then you should check your NS2+ options or enabled mods to ensure nothing is conflicting with it (like Rantology said) :
    6osmqa5iavjg.jpg
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    alster wrote: »
    We always need to have minimal infestation on or be handicapped.

    Mmm, no not really. That's like saying pro's always disable the aliens jaws because it lets them play better (which they don't). Gameplay-wise it doesn't really make a noticeable difference and in my opinion I like how it looks aesthetically, though I know that some people would disagree with the latter.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    Am I the only one who dislikes the ocean of red which is current AV.
    No I am not, as with every AV there are folk who love it and folk who dont.

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    IronHorse wrote: »
    This should be what every single player sees by default, and if you aren't seeing this then you should check your NS2+ options or enabled mods to ensure nothing is conflicting with it (like Rantology said) :
    6osmqa5iavjg.jpg
    EEK! I've been spotted
    Am I the only one who dislikes the ocean of red which is current AV.
    No I am not, as with every AV there are folk who love it and folk who dont.
    I am told my alien vision is horrible from everyone. I like it though. That is 1/everyone.
    GsopqAt.jpg

  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    .
    Nordic wrote: »
    IronHorse wrote: »
    This should be what every single player sees by default, and if you aren't seeing this then you should check your NS2+ options or enabled mods to ensure nothing is conflicting with it (like Rantology said) :
    6osmqa5iavjg.jpg
    EEK! I've been spotted
    Am I the only one who dislikes the ocean of red which is current AV.
    No I am not, as with every AV there are folk who love it and folk who dont.
    I am told my alien vision is horrible from everyone. I like it though. That is 1/everyone.
    GsopqAt.jpg

    Looks okay for me. It is ugly as fuck but that is true for every good AV.
  • SintaxSintax Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10581Members
    rantology wrote: »
    I asked Remi about this, and the default state both in the vanilla game and in NS2+ for AV is ON- however when Remi changed the default state for NS2+ he did not reset it for existing players, so this is likely why you had to go into your options and change it. Both are defaulted to ON for new players, however.
    Is this going to get fixed in the next patch? Do you guys see this as a bug/problem that existing players have this setting off by default?

    I guess the change to alien's vision when turned off is not going to get reverted since all the devs are ignoring that part of my post. It's a real shame that normal alien's sight has been nerfed and is now useless. I used to like to turn AV on when mines or grenades were nearby because it would light them up, otherwise I usually left it off. Now I will have to turn it on 100% of the time, and that sucks a lot.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited May 2016
    @Sintax You misunderstand.. there is no longer a need to turn off and on alien vision.

    This is why this AV is superior.. it works flawlessly in complete darkness AND full brightness.. with zero tradeoffs.
    (previously turning ON alien vision meant you sacrificed having marine outlines, which negatively impacted your ability to track them in melee range)
    It will highlight mines, structures and enemies all the time.

    Normal alien sight has been buffed, not nerfed.
  • DilligafDilligaf Join Date: 2014-05-25 Member: 196238Members
    edited May 2016
    4037574.jpg
    Uke minimal is my pick and before the update i always play alien vision on at all times, i thought everyone did..
  • SintaxSintax Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10581Members
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @Sintax You misunderstand.. there is no longer a need to turn off and on alien vision.

    This is why this AV is superior.. it works flawlessly in complete darkness AND full brightness.. with zero tradeoffs.
    (previously turning ON alien vision meant you sacrificed having marine outlines, which negatively impacted your ability to track them in melee range)
    It will highlight mines, structures and enemies all the time.

    Normal alien sight has been buffed, not nerfed.

    You are right. I read your post a bunch of times and I do not understand. Having AV turned off has been nerfed, since visibility of enemies is now abysmal. Basically "normal" vision (AV off) is now useless. You might as well remove it from the game. As you said, AV gives a clear advantage, and yet if you look at my earlier post, you can see most people are not using it (because the default is broken). Why would more than half the people I specced NOT use a superior form of vision?
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited May 2016
    The problem with the current AV is that it's ancient and doesn't include fixes to it that have been made in the past, like highlighting the skybox, and other various fixes. It was originally supposed to be this http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=375340416 that starts on, but it was modified by someone else originally the first time to what was pre-299, even though what is linked was the original approved version most people liked. It was designed with the intention of having it on is not detrimental in light areas but will help you in dark areas, without the need to turn it on and off. It was then again supposed to be changed back to what it originally was supposed to be (what was linked) but then again was changed to straight up huze minimal which contains bugs...

    https://trello.com/c/eMXuIhLX/86-replace-the-default-av-with-samus-s-start-with-av-on

    Also the fact that you need to have NS2+ installed for it to work properly I will never understand. On vanilla NS2 when I reinstalled to see what they did with the AV, it started with no outlines, again, doesn't make any sense to me.

    I've offered to help fix it, at the very least the bugs should be fixed and the "on" version needs to be defaulted in the shader, not in a mod.
  • SintaxSintax Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10581Members
    I dont see why having to turn AV on/off is a bad thing, I liked having the option to use it when it got dark or visibility got low. Now I have to use it 100% of the time. Again, I have no problem with Huze's minimal AV, I have a problem with the change when AV is off. Visibility is nerfed, and all the replies I get seem to be saying "just use AV 100% of the time" or "it's automatically on now" (even though it's apparently defaulted to OFF for anyone who has the game installed: most players have AV default to off every death).

    I guess we'll never get marine outlines back and be stuck with being forced to use AV 100% of the time, but I hope the issue where it is defaulted to off is resolved at least...
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