R.I.P Competitive NS2 2012-2016

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  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation Posts: 721 Advanced user
    Maintening 2 codes is irrealistic. Especially on client / server architecture.

    Toggles and tuning cursors so you can set your server on this (comp) or that (pub) profile is the only way to go.

    But that wouldn't cover deep game mechanics changes.
    Freak out
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 635 Advanced user
    I often would have to use wireless internet with very expensive data due to the unavailability a fixed line connection. My level of interest in having to constantly change build and re-download data over and over again would be minimal.
  • paddypaddy Ireland Join Date: 2016-05-20 Member: 217085Members Posts: 2
    Asraniel wrote: »
    I'm sure some technical person can correct me, but:

    Wouldn't it have been possible for the compmod to make a "total conversion" of ns2? Meaning, the compmod would have the complete copy of the ns2 lua code, making it independant on any changes in vanilla ns2. From what i understand this is possible to do.
    The only changes the compmod would have to do during a season would then be to adapt to any engine changes, but those are very rare and could certainly be advertised in advance. I actually wonder why that sort of approach was never taken, rapid development cycle or not, it always seemed like the best option to me.

    Yes this is another alternative, a NS2-296 mod could be created that overwrites the entire game's code with all the code from the 296 patch, effectively freezing the game at version 296, then you wouldn't need to touch the legal minefield (lol) that is CompMod, and it should "just" work for users without having them switch branches etc. I even discussed it with PDT/CDT devs (lol I still dont really know whos who), but they recommended against it, can't remember why.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    paddy wrote: »
    Asraniel wrote: »
    I'm sure some technical person can correct me, but:

    Wouldn't it have been possible for the compmod to make a "total conversion" of ns2? Meaning, the compmod would have the complete copy of the ns2 lua code, making it independant on any changes in vanilla ns2. From what i understand this is possible to do.
    The only changes the compmod would have to do during a season would then be to adapt to any engine changes, but those are very rare and could certainly be advertised in advance. I actually wonder why that sort of approach was never taken, rapid development cycle or not, it always seemed like the best option to me.

    Yes this is another alternative, a NS2-296 mod could be created that overwrites the entire game's code with all the code from the 296 patch, effectively freezing the game at version 296, then you wouldn't need to touch the legal minefield (lol) that is CompMod, and it should "just" work for users without having them switch branches etc. I even discussed it with PDT/CDT devs (lol I still dont really know whos who), but they recommended against it, can't remember why.

    *Patch 250 flashbacks.*
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,463 Advanced user
    Scatter wrote: »
    I often would have to use wireless internet with very expensive data due to the unavailability a fixed line connection. My level of interest in having to constantly change build and re-download data over and over again would be minimal.

    As I mentioned earlier you could download the branch once and then rename the folders in your steam directory according to which one you need right now. I'm not saying it's pretty, but it would work. And you could even write a .bat to do it for you.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • TyrwingTyrwing Sweden Join Date: 2015-11-23 Member: 209435Members Posts: 41 Advanced user
    loMe wrote: »
    To the Bots that keep saying "LOL UWE gave them what they needed to continue playing comp" you really haven't taken the time to consider all the factors, so please mm2.

    +1

    migalski
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    The mod band-aid only directly affected the mod maintainers. While a huge time bomb which could (and would) explode at any time, your individual player never had to go through any motions other than to face the differences between the pub and comp versions while playing. Just like ns2large lovers crying havoc after their servers went behind a filter (1 click), a massive amount of problems would arise if every single individual competitive player was forced to go through this procedure. The most ridiculously small problems can accumulate into huge game breakers when players of different intellect, attention span and technical skill are all required to perform for any of them to be able to play.
    Alitemigalskibs_
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    loMe wrote: »
    So a couple more things on why we rejected the Beta branch to maintain the NSL:

    First of all, its a band-aid solution. Sure, we could have potentially run a few matches, but as @_mod pointed out it would have been a painful process with all the problems that we would run into. Even a Playtester told me that they still run into issues with switching between the beta branches (and these are people that SHOULD know how to do this better than anyone!), so imagine coordinating 150+ people with language barriers to run a league this way. On top of this, from what I was told, currently NS2+ doesn't even work on the beta branch, yet we're supposed to carry on without it?

    The next huge problem with the beta branch is that it would have destroyed our ability to bring in new players and maintain the Gather system. New potential players would turn around the moment they saw that they need to switch to the beta branch in order to go from pubbing to playing a competitive round of NS2. Newcomers tournament? Forget it. Entry into competitive would have been stifled and eventually it would have withered and died. Then there are the people that sign up for Gathers and you're dealing with @_mod 's scenarios all over again with LESS patient players. People cry Bloody Mary waiting 10 minutes for a Gather to start, imagine having to wait 30 minutes because some Russian guy can barely understand English and doesn't know how to switch to the Beta branch.

    "Oh well you could just have your community stay on the beta branch with your own pubs." Really? What happened when Combat got switched to its own independent game? RIP. And they actually had a really talented team of developers constantly at work adding new content. Beta branch would have splintered NS2 community and killed any growth for the NSL.

    To the Bots that keep saying "LOL UWE gave them what they needed to continue playing comp" you really haven't taken the time to consider all the factors, so please mm2.

    You missunderstand the idea behind the steam 'beta' branch. It was meant as a temporary solution to a temporary problem (the gameplay shake up).
    Just so NSL teams could finish the season 9 without change in balance.
    After a while, the balance in Vanilla NS2 would have stabilized again, after summer no big deal right.
    Also it seems paddy was willing to update compod what happened?

    Let's be honest the argument that NS2+ wasn't working is weird since Mendasp is playing competitively too right? Why couldn't he just upload a previous version of the mod compatible with the build of the beta branch?
    And the argument about language barrier is even more ridiculous since, correct me if I'm wrong, mics and communications are mandatory to join gathers.

    It's all just a sudden sheep movement jumping off the cliff if you ask me.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    Also for those who really struggle to understand the reason behind rapid interations, pretty sure it's to have more player during the weekends. obviously.
  • LocklurrLocklurr Memphis Join Date: 2014-04-16 Member: 195443Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 9 Fully active user
    edited May 2016

    It's all just a sudden sheep movement jumping off the cliff if you ask me.

    No one asked you, thx.

    ---
    Also, I am against rapid iteration just like you guys, but I can't help but feel like you don't want to find a solution to this problem.

    Don't go SupaDupaNoodle on us, you weren't a part of it and you don't understand how fragile things were in the NSL for the past year.

    This recent stuff was just the tip of the iceberg.
    migalskibs_Me9a
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Locklurr wrote: »

    It's all just a sudden sheep movement jumping off the cliff if you ask me.

    No one asked you, thx.

    Nice rethoric, too bad you don't have arguments.

  • LocklurrLocklurr Memphis Join Date: 2014-04-16 Member: 195443Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 9 Fully active user
    edited May 2016
    Locklurr wrote: »

    It's all just a sudden sheep movement jumping off the cliff if you ask me.

    No one asked you, thx.

    Nice rethoric, too bad you don't have arguments.

    Your post wasn't really worth arguing with.

    But I'll just let you refer to my points above on the fact that you clearly don't know enough about the situation to understand why it had to be done.

    This thread is really about saying goodbye, yet you guys come in here with this attitude that you think you know better than us when a competitive scene is truly done. It's laughable really.
    migalski
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    Locklurr wrote: »
    This recent stuff was just the tip of the iceberg.

    That was the sense I was getting, but I don't have a clear picture of what the rest of the iceberg actually consists of. Are those things fixable?
    bs_
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    I shall not comment on how hard it is to maintain mods for comp. I shall let folk like dragon do that.
    I shall even ignore how easy or hard it is to switch to this comp branch for certain players.

    But the comments about how hard it is to get a server running on a different branch or to get server ops to run it just untrue. And it saddens me to see NSL leads utter it.
    Swapping the server is almost a copy paste. Most who run multiple branches just keep scripted copies and they are done.
    The list of active nsl servers & server admins is NOT huge either. It doesnt take that long to inform them all.

    Please dont repeat that nonsense again. It makes the nsl look less informed then it should be.
    NS2
    Old/resigned Dutch Translation Lead. Give feedback about the translation, or help improve by clicking: Current NS2 Dutch translation project. Dutch players apply!
    NS2 Server Maintenance Manual
    WorkshopBackup Manual (WSB Server)
    Ingame: DCDarkling
    'DCDs Steam Workshop', for your NS2 X-Hairs and Viewmodel Weapon mods
    Viewmodels are the ones you hold in your hand, not the one shown in the world!

    Old NS2 Stuff:
    Marine Commander Guide NS2
    Alien Commander Guide NS2
    NS2 Mentor Program
    Old NS1 stuff:
    'Infested Pack v0.6' for models & props
    Darklings Guide to Commanding Version 1.001
    KeatscooliticMe9a
  • LocklurrLocklurr Memphis Join Date: 2014-04-16 Member: 195443Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 9 Fully active user
    edited May 2016
    I shall not comment on how hard it is to maintain mods for comp. I shall let folk like dragon do that.
    I shall even ignore how easy or hard it is to switch to this comp branch for certain players.

    But the comments about how hard it is to get a server running on a different branch or to get server ops to run it just untrue. And it saddens me to see NSL leads utter it.
    Swapping the server is almost a copy paste. Most who run multiple branches just keep scripted copies and they are done.
    The list of active nsl servers & server admins is NOT huge either. It doesnt take that long to inform them all.

    Please dont repeat that nonsense again. It makes the nsl look less informed then it should be.

    And yet sometimes server admins were so out of the loop they would reset the server in the middle of an official match! :p

    Jokes aside, I mostly agree with this. It was more of an issue of what I stated above. Compounded by recent events.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    That was one time.. ONE TIME.. /cries.
    But yeh.. I think I even have most active nsl admins of the season on my friends list. :D
    NS2
    Old/resigned Dutch Translation Lead. Give feedback about the translation, or help improve by clicking: Current NS2 Dutch translation project. Dutch players apply!
    NS2 Server Maintenance Manual
    WorkshopBackup Manual (WSB Server)
    Ingame: DCDarkling
    'DCDs Steam Workshop', for your NS2 X-Hairs and Viewmodel Weapon mods
    Viewmodels are the ones you hold in your hand, not the one shown in the world!

    Old NS2 Stuff:
    Marine Commander Guide NS2
    Alien Commander Guide NS2
    NS2 Mentor Program
    Old NS1 stuff:
    'Infested Pack v0.6' for models & props
    Darklings Guide to Commanding Version 1.001
  • loMeloMe PA Join Date: 2014-02-26 Member: 194387Members Posts: 23 Fully active user
    Pretty sure the Server Ops thing was on the bottom of the list of the issues, but it's one of many hurdles nonetheless. It's kind of pointless to boil the decision down to any one thing when it was several things large and small. Notice I've never even brought the server stuff up as one of the main problems.
    NA Admin for the NSL
    Team: Lucky Chams
  • CyphurixCyphurix England Join Date: 2014-07-21 Member: 197547Members Posts: 4
    That was one time.. ONE TIME.. /cries.

    Golden never forgets

    Happened literally seconds after we lost both fades and both lerks, so thanks for that :D
    ydycoolitic
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    Well at least I, as a div 3/4 player, made it in a prem div cast. Who can claim THAT hmm. :P
    NS2
    Old/resigned Dutch Translation Lead. Give feedback about the translation, or help improve by clicking: Current NS2 Dutch translation project. Dutch players apply!
    NS2 Server Maintenance Manual
    WorkshopBackup Manual (WSB Server)
    Ingame: DCDarkling
    'DCDs Steam Workshop', for your NS2 X-Hairs and Viewmodel Weapon mods
    Viewmodels are the ones you hold in your hand, not the one shown in the world!

    Old NS2 Stuff:
    Marine Commander Guide NS2
    Alien Commander Guide NS2
    NS2 Mentor Program
    Old NS1 stuff:
    'Infested Pack v0.6' for models & props
    Darklings Guide to Commanding Version 1.001
  • ZeframZefram Join Date: 2004-05-11 Member: 28611Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer Posts: 283 mod
    Come on, guys. Just wait until the next patch.
    twitch.tv/Zefram0911
    "I'm not ticklish. I'm also immune to pain and fear" - cory s.

    Uninstalled December 2015
    Locklurrmoultano
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation Posts: 721 Advanced user
    Zefram wrote: »
    Come on, guys. Just wait until the next patch.

    You included full NS2+ and NSLarge support ???
    Freak out
This discussion has been closed.