bye guys had my last game of NS2 tonight, longs nights of NS1 are a gone day, NS2 little by little, thanks to others who really helped make it a great place, and as always *snip* cursing at developers is disrespectful and not allowed here -Iron
It seems like we're not planning on quitting either.
I'd wait with any discussion concerning the future of the ensl, until everyone is done putting flowers on it. In 5 days or so.
There is never any action over the summer so at the very least ns2 is dead until September. Even then the damage is done and nothing short of making ns2 FTP or ns3 will make it noteworthy in any sense.
If you and TAWmageddon wanna start your own league in 5 days then gl but it wont be on the ensl.
It seems like we're not planning on quitting either.
I'd wait with any discussion concerning the future of the ensl, until everyone is done putting flowers on it. In 5 days or so.
There is never any action over the summer so at the very least ns2 is dead until September. Even then the damage is done and nothing short of making ns2 FTP or ns3 will make it noteworthy in any sense.
If you and TAWmageddon wanna start your own league in 5 days then gl but it wont be on the ensl.
Cool story, but not really a relevant reply to what I wrote.
Competitive Players have much less impact on the game than they think have. Yes we do have alot of skilled players who know the game and when it comes to balancing the game then those players are probably the most valuable input. However the player numbers are quite small in competitive. If you remember the NSL strike because of compmod and ns2+ being offline then you might also remember that the amount of players who played the game didn't change noticably. So pls do realise that the end of NSL is not the end of ns2.
Just so you know, A comp season with 23 active teams with 6+ players on each team has come to a halt. These were loyal long-term players that helped the game evolve and in turn attracted new players to pursue a higher level of skill. This was a bigger season than the last. We had an influx of new players transition from pubs to compete. New teams were formed. We also had more casters than before.
Ensl did not choose to close down it was forced to. Bridging the gap between the modders and the devs should of been uwe's first priority, not game shake ups, catered to rookies that will mostly likely pick up the game for a short duration due to its age. Yet again you fail to see the importance and impact of the competitive scene, as well as the players within it. It's sad really the way uwe chose to turn their back on these players. I guess its not the first time. Now with a good chunk of players gone and those who stick around; with more time passing, it is inevitable that people will eventually lose interest completely. I just hope in the future, if there even is one, uwe(or another dev company perhaps) wont make the same mistakes.
Competitive Players have much less impact on the game than they think have. Yes we do have alot of skilled players who know the game and when it comes to balancing the game then those players are probably the most valuable input. However the player numbers are quite small in competitive. If you remember the NSL strike because of compmod and ns2+ being offline then you might also remember that the amount of players who played the game didn't change noticably. So pls do realise that the end of NSL is not the end of ns2.
Just so you know, A comp season with 23 active teams with 6+ players on each team has come to a halt. These were loyal long-term players that helped the game evolve and in turn attracted new players to pursue a higher level of skill. This was a bigger season than the last. We had an influx of new players transition from pubs to compete. New teams were formed. We also had more casters than before.
Ensl did not choose to close down it was forced to. Bridging the gap between the modders and the devs should of been uwe's first priority, not game shake ups, catered to rookies that will mostly likely pick up the game for a short duration due to its age. Yet again you fail to see the importance and impact of the competitive scene, as well as the players within it. It's sad really the way uwe chose to turn their back on these players. I guess its not the first time. Now with a good chunk of players gone and those who stick around; with more time passing, it is inevitable that people will eventually lose interest completely. I just hope in the future, if there even is one, uwe(or another dev company perhaps) wont make the same mistakes.
Is there a way that UWE could have still released rapid patches that could have prevented this? I understand the desire not to have major shakeups in gameplay mid season, but that doesn't seem like a fatal issue on its own.
Competitive Players have much less impact on the game than they think have. Yes we do have alot of skilled players who know the game and when it comes to balancing the game then those players are probably the most valuable input. However the player numbers are quite small in competitive. If you remember the NSL strike because of compmod and ns2+ being offline then you might also remember that the amount of players who played the game didn't change noticably. So pls do realise that the end of NSL is not the end of ns2.
Just so you know, A comp season with 23 active teams with 6+ players on each team has come to a halt. These were loyal long-term players that helped the game evolve and in turn attracted new players to pursue a higher level of skill. This was a bigger season than the last. We had an influx of new players transition from pubs to compete. New teams were formed. We also had more casters than before.
Ensl did not choose to close down it was forced to. Bridging the gap between the modders and the devs should of been uwe's first priority, not game shake ups, catered to rookies that will mostly likely pick up the game for a short duration due to its age. Yet again you fail to see the importance and impact of the competitive scene, as well as the players within it. It's sad really the way uwe chose to turn their back on these players. I guess its not the first time. Now with a good chunk of players gone and those who stick around; with more time passing, it is inevitable that people will eventually lose interest completely. I just hope in the future, if there even is one, uwe(or another dev company perhaps) wont make the same mistakes.
Is there a way that UWE could have still released rapid patches that could have prevented this? I understand the desire not to have major shakeups in gameplay mid season, but that doesn't seem like a fatal issue on its own.
They could have created a "comp build". An alternate patch version that would not be updated at all mid-season unless something was desperately needed (even bug fixes due to breaking essential comp mods). This probably could have been pushed through steams "betas" dropdown, only instead of updating more frequently like most beta opt-ins it would update less.
Competitive Players have much less impact on the game than they think have. Yes we do have alot of skilled players who know the game and when it comes to balancing the game then those players are probably the most valuable input. However the player numbers are quite small in competitive. If you remember the NSL strike because of compmod and ns2+ being offline then you might also remember that the amount of players who played the game didn't change noticably. So pls do realise that the end of NSL is not the end of ns2.
Just so you know, A comp season with 23 active teams with 6+ players on each team has come to a halt. These were loyal long-term players that helped the game evolve and in turn attracted new players to pursue a higher level of skill. This was a bigger season than the last. We had an influx of new players transition from pubs to compete. New teams were formed. We also had more casters than before.
Ensl did not choose to close down it was forced to. Bridging the gap between the modders and the devs should of been uwe's first priority, not game shake ups, catered to rookies that will mostly likely pick up the game for a short duration due to its age. Yet again you fail to see the importance and impact of the competitive scene, as well as the players within it. It's sad really the way uwe chose to turn their back on these players. I guess its not the first time. Now with a good chunk of players gone and those who stick around; with more time passing, it is inevitable that people will eventually lose interest completely. I just hope in the future, if there even is one, uwe(or another dev company perhaps) wont make the same mistakes.
Is there a way that UWE could have still released rapid patches that could have prevented this? I understand the desire not to have major shakeups in gameplay mid season, but that doesn't seem like a fatal issue on its own.
They could have created a "comp build". An alternate patch version that would not be updated at all mid-season unless something was desperately needed (even bug fixes due to breaking essential comp mods). This probably could have been pushed through steams "betas" dropdown, only instead of updating more frequently like most beta opt-ins it would update less.
They did exactly that and it wasn't used if I understand correctly.
To the people that responded to me on the last page - don't get me wrong, I am vehemently against the new, faster update cycle; mods breaking being one of the reasons. I'll gladly take up "makes it harder to balance compmod" as another one.
A special branch of ns2 has been created about a month ago, so that the nsl can play their season without interupts. You can activate it in steam at the same place that you activate the beta branch. In theory that would be the perfect solution for conpetitive play, but somehow nobody uses it.
Copy and Pasted from Ensl.org Written by Simba:
Using this will be very difficult to do and coordinate. As such, we have decided that it is not a realistic option. Reasons:
Coordinating 150 players to switch to a separate branch of NS2 is annoying and painful for each person to do. Some people will refuse to do this, and might force match forfeits as a result. Some may have technical difficulties.
Coordinating modders to have versions of their mod that is compatible with our branch is going to be difficult. We would have to get versions of comp-mod, nsl mod, and ns2+ working at the minimum.
Coordinating server operators to switch to use the right branch of NS2 and the right branch of mods will be a logistical nightmare. Any technical difficulties are going to take a lot of time to resolve, and we're all volunteers here.
To the people that responded to me on the last page - don't get me wrong, I am vehemently against the new, faster update cycle; mods breaking being one of the reasons. I'll gladly take up "makes it harder to balance compmod" as another one.
A special branch of ns2 has been created about a month ago, so that the nsl can play their season without interupts. You can activate it in steam at the same place that you activate the beta branch. In theory that would be the perfect solution for conpetitive play, but somehow nobody uses it.
Copy and Pasted from Ensl.org Written by Simba:
Using this will be very difficult to do and coordinate. As such, we have decided that it is not a realistic option. Reasons:
Coordinating 150 players to switch to a separate branch of NS2 is annoying and painful for each person to do. Some people will refuse to do this, and might force match forfeits as a result. Some may have technical difficulties.
Coordinating modders to have versions of their mod that is compatible with our branch is going to be difficult. We would have to get versions of comp-mod, nsl mod, and ns2+ working at the minimum.
Coordinating server operators to switch to use the right branch of NS2 and the right branch of mods will be a logistical nightmare. Any technical difficulties are going to take a lot of time to resolve, and we're all volunteers here.
Right, so that still leaves the question of what they could have done differently, assuming rapid development.
Competitive Players have much less impact on the game than they think have. Yes we do have alot of skilled players who know the game and when it comes to balancing the game then those players are probably the most valuable input. However the player numbers are quite small in competitive. If you remember the NSL strike because of compmod and ns2+ being offline then you might also remember that the amount of players who played the game didn't change noticably. So pls do realise that the end of NSL is not the end of ns2.
Just so you know, A comp season with 23 active teams with 6+ players on each team has come to a halt. These were loyal long-term players that helped the game evolve and in turn attracted new players to pursue a higher level of skill. This was a bigger season than the last. We had an influx of new players transition from pubs to compete. New teams were formed. We also had more casters than before.
Ensl did not choose to close down it was forced to. Bridging the gap between the modders and the devs should of been uwe's first priority, not game shake ups, catered to rookies that will mostly likely pick up the game for a short duration due to its age. Yet again you fail to see the importance and impact of the competitive scene, as well as the players within it. It's sad really the way uwe chose to turn their back on these players. I guess its not the first time. Now with a good chunk of players gone and those who stick around; with more time passing, it is inevitable that people will eventually lose interest completely. I just hope in the future, if there even is one, uwe(or another dev company perhaps) wont make the same mistakes.
Is there a way that UWE could have still released rapid patches that could have prevented this? I understand the desire not to have major shakeups in gameplay mid season, but that doesn't seem like a fatal issue on its own.
They could have created a "comp build". An alternate patch version that would not be updated at all mid-season unless something was desperately needed (even bug fixes due to breaking essential comp mods). This probably could have been pushed through steams "betas" dropdown, only instead of updating more frequently like most beta opt-ins it would update less.
They did exactly that and it wasn't used if I understand correctly.
I guess that explains what the "ensl season 9" beta option was in the dropdown.
Yeah I see it was mentioned in the thread earlier. As far as coordinating players... no sympathy. If comp players can't handle some relatively simple rules and procedures they shouldn't be playing comp to start with.
I can see how it would be frustrating for the modders, but if it was done properly it would have been a fire-and-forget thing that just involved duplicating the mod once and then never touching the duplicate again throughout the season. Comp mod wouldn't have even needed that much, if this worked the way I think it should basically all he would have needed to do is NOT update to match the pub builds.
To the people that responded to me on the last page - don't get me wrong, I am vehemently against the new, faster update cycle; mods breaking being one of the reasons. I'll gladly take up "makes it harder to balance compmod" as another one.
A special branch of ns2 has been created about a month ago, so that the nsl can play their season without interupts. You can activate it in steam at the same place that you activate the beta branch. In theory that would be the perfect solution for conpetitive play, but somehow nobody uses it.
Copy and Pasted from Ensl.org Written by Simba:
Using this will be very difficult to do and coordinate. As such, we have decided that it is not a realistic option. Reasons:
Coordinating 150 players to switch to a separate branch of NS2 is annoying and painful for each person to do. Some people will refuse to do this, and might force match forfeits as a result. Some may have technical difficulties.
Coordinating modders to have versions of their mod that is compatible with our branch is going to be difficult. We would have to get versions of comp-mod, nsl mod, and ns2+ working at the minimum.
Coordinating server operators to switch to use the right branch of NS2 and the right branch of mods will be a logistical nightmare. Any technical difficulties are going to take a lot of time to resolve, and we're all volunteers here.
Right, so that still leaves the question of what they could have done differently, assuming rapid development.
What they could have done differently, if they are so intent on shaking the game up, is add changes that are worth it.
As it stands, I know for a fact that many people in the competitive community are frustrated not only because the PDT basically doesn't give a flying f*ck about how their "rapid development" is screwing over the competitive scene, but also because the changes they are ruining the scene for are literally the most stupid changes that could be thought of.
I've said this before, people have been asking for changes that make the game actually BETTER: removing power nodes, removing cysts, removing fixed spawn locations. Many believe these changes would be amazing for ns2's gameplay, and while I personally don't know if this is the case, I acknowledge that it is 100% possible.
But what does the PDT do instead of implementing changes that could actually improve the game's gameplay, they add retarded changes like: health bars, electrified rts? REALLY? Stuff no one asked for, that many people are actually against.
Personally, if comp mod was being broken to actually make the game better by implementing actual good changes, I wouldn't mind, hell I would even encourage it. But this garbage that were being fed is what makes me believe that the PDT doesn't actually give a shit about the game. They only care about meeting the objective that was set for them by UWE, and it just so happens they don't care if they actually make the game better on the way.
As for the beta branch, I have no idea how that stuff works, but from my understanding the admins themselves didn't want to sink in the time (which I assume would be considerable) to coordinate the use of the branch, which I think is perfectly justifiable since they are all volunteers. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Personally, if comp mod was being broken to actually make the game better by implementing actual good changes, I wouldn't mind, hell I would even encourage it. But this garbage that were being fed is what makes me believe that the PDT doesn't actually give a **** about the game. They only care about meeting the objective that was set for them by UWE, and it just so happens they don't care if they actually make the game better on the way.
When it comes to co-coordinating One Hundred and Fifty people Plus support staff to all be on the same page at unpredictable times given a wide range of computer literacy, language barriers, download speeds, time zones, etc.
You try wrangling them all before you call it easy.
As a clan leader in the Aus scene it was hard enough trying to get 6 to all be on the same page for a game. What makes you think running ad-hoc tech support for 150+ people switching steam branches would be easy to manage?
I can't believe all this about the Beta branch for use by the ENSL. I never heard of this, I don't know if it was my own ignorance or if it wasn't shared, but the beta branch idea was a great idea. The excuse that it would be too difficult to coordinate is crazy. UWE couldn't do any better short of actually stopping the rapid iteration project, which is just childish to expect for the sake of the competitive community alone. I mean the big drama before about rapid iteration, yet here we are in May before a patch actually broke CompMod, the last update to the code was back in March! Several patches have been released with no effect at all. And this latest breakage, required adding 1 word to fix (albeit there were other non breaking bugs that would need to be fixed too). CompMod also wasn't lacking people volunteering to maintain it, though maybe I just wasn't "dependable and trustworthy".
I suspect this power feud or whatever internet social breakdown it is, between certain people in the competitive community and certain people in UWE is part of all this, I think certain people want to see it all fall apart, bleh, shame.
Anyway despite all that, I'm out too, thanks to everyone (coders, admins, players) who made the ENSL what it was, gathers were the best time I had playing NS2, I had a great time with all the characters, even if a thick skin was required (some never understood that)!
What makes you think running ad-hoc tech support for 150+ people switching steam branches would be easy to manage?
It's... really not that hard. There's really no tech support needed unless Steam is down?
Right click NS2> Properties > Beta tab > Select ENSL to download a 50 mb patch.
TADA! 4 mouse clicks
What everyone wanted or suggested as a better solution (A second mode within NS2 itself) would double the install size of the game, roughly a 23 GB size footprint, and it'd have to be maintained.
As far as I understand it (Because I did ask) It'd be a nightmare to maintain, from the build process to engine changes etc. If you know someone who is willing to maintain it, please let us know.
It's simply too much for the dev team when their focus is elsewhere. The ENSL branch should suffice and should come with zero issues... I really don't get the big hassle as someone who switches branches in that exact manner almost daily, and on shit farmland internet that isn't as fast as your 4G phone. It's better than nothing at least..
To the people that responded to me on the last page - don't get me wrong, I am vehemently against the new, faster update cycle; mods breaking being one of the reasons. I'll gladly take up "makes it harder to balance compmod" as another one.
A special branch of ns2 has been created about a month ago, so that the nsl can play their season without interupts. You can activate it in steam at the same place that you activate the beta branch. In theory that would be the perfect solution for conpetitive play, but somehow nobody uses it.
Copy and Pasted from Ensl.org Written by Simba:
Using this will be very difficult to do and coordinate. As such, we have decided that it is not a realistic option. Reasons:
Coordinating 150 players to switch to a separate branch of NS2 is annoying and painful for each person to do. Some people will refuse to do this, and might force match forfeits as a result. Some may have technical difficulties.
Coordinating modders to have versions of their mod that is compatible with our branch is going to be difficult. We would have to get versions of comp-mod, nsl mod, and ns2+ working at the minimum.
Coordinating server operators to switch to use the right branch of NS2 and the right branch of mods will be a logistical nightmare. Any technical difficulties are going to take a lot of time to resolve, and we're all volunteers here.
Right, so that still leaves the question of what they could have done differently, assuming rapid development.
What they could have done differently, if they are so intent on shaking the game up, is add changes that are worth it.
As it stands, I know for a fact that many people in the competitive community are frustrated not only because the PDT basically doesn't give a flying f*ck about how their "rapid development" is screwing over the competitive scene, but also because the changes they are ruining the scene for are literally the most stupid changes that could be thought of.
I've said this before, people have been asking for changes that make the game actually BETTER: removing power nodes, removing cysts, removing fixed spawn locations. Many believe these changes would be amazing for ns2's gameplay, and while I personally don't know if this is the case, I acknowledge that it is 100% possible.
But what does the PDT do instead of implementing changes that could actually improve the game's gameplay, they add retarded changes like: health bars, electrified rts? REALLY? Stuff no one asked for, that many people are actually against.
Personally, if comp mod was being broken to actually make the game better by implementing actual good changes, I wouldn't mind, hell I would even encourage it. But this garbage that were being fed is what makes me believe that the PDT doesn't actually give a **** about the game. They only care about meeting the objective that was set for them by UWE, and it just so happens they don't care if they actually make the game better on the way.
As for the beta branch, I have no idea how that stuff works, but from my understanding the admins themselves didn't want to sink in the time (which I assume would be considerable) to coordinate the use of the branch, which I think is perfectly justifiable since they are all volunteers. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I know for a fact that we've been asking for matchmaking for several years, think when the playerbase was around 1k. And if there would've been a matchmaking system think of how many players would be still around?
Right now you're forced to play it as an casual multiplayer game that costs money, not like Heroes and Generals and other F2P games
But the reason behind of not having a Matchmaking is them saying "it takes too long time to develop" we'll you've had more than 2 years to develop it instead. What the PDT and the CDT got in mind, is short quick shortcuts fixes and balances, nothing else! They cant see the long run fixes that are needed to be implemented. That's the problem with having a "3 month contract". You cant focus on the bigger picture, and feed bad patches instead to the game.
Step 1: schedule a game at a convinient time for all (a task that is incredibly easy and is never difficult as I'm sure you all know)
Step 2: ensure that a server is up and primed for the game time
Step 3: recheck with everyone that they know when the game time is
Step 4: switch your build of ns2 to use the new competitive branch:
Right click NS2> Properties > Beta tab > Select ENSL to download a 50 mb patch.
TADA! 4 mouse clicks
Step 5.a: ensure you can get ahold of the server operator
Step 5.b: ensure that the server operator remembered to switch their server over
Step 5.c: ensure you have a contact for someone connected to the server so they can switch the server over instead (feel free to cry a little here)
Step 6.a: check that your team remembered to switch their ns2 branch over
Step 6.b: re-explain to that one guy how to switch their ns2 branch over
Step 7: make sure the other team is ready and apologise for wasting their time
Step 8: realise the other teams is also faffing around with their 6 downloading the package at different speeds
Step 9: hear that someone blew their internet cap so they're downloading slower
Step 10: consider the events in your life that brought you to this moment
Step 11: ensure that match support also has their shit together
Step 12: now that the collective delays have postponed the match by half an hour respond to the message that the other team can only play for another 2 hours
Step 13: find another player to replace whoever inevitably dropped out
Step 14: learn that all other registered team replacements went to bed
Step 15: realise that your struggle is futile in this cruel and uncaring world
Step 16.a: find and agree to a merc who is a balanced replacement to your/their team
Step 16.b: the only free merc is a div1 player, you agree but now a wild argument has appeared
Step 16.c: ensure the merc is also using the correct branch of Ns2
Step 17: finish the night by playing one and a half maps between two teams who are bored to tears by all the technical bullshit that's been going on
Step 18: Try to console yourself with the fact that it could be worse. "Imagine trying to run a draft tournament?" You hear yourself say. But it is too late. The butterknife is in your hand. You know what to do. If only the comp experience was easier. "I would have liked to have seen Overwatch one last time" you say. /wrist
This isn't even the be all and end all. Say the server is booked for a later date. Say some random thing just came up. Say the only agreeable time for the match was during the middle of the day or after midnight. Trying to manage matches over different time zones is hard enough and people will always be imperfect adding this on top makes it a farce.
Competitive Players have much less impact on the game than they think have. Yes we do have alot of skilled players who know the game and when it comes to balancing the game then those players are probably the most valuable input. However the player numbers are quite small in competitive. If you remember the NSL strike because of compmod and ns2+ being offline then you might also remember that the amount of players who played the game didn't change noticably. So pls do realise that the end of NSL is not the end of ns2.
Just so you know, A comp season with 23 active teams with 6+ players on each team has come to a halt. These were loyal long-term players that helped the game evolve and in turn attracted new players to pursue a higher level of skill. This was a bigger season than the last. We had an influx of new players transition from pubs to compete. New teams were formed. We also had more casters than before.
Ensl did not choose to close down it was forced to. Bridging the gap between the modders and the devs should of been uwe's first priority, not game shake ups, catered to rookies that will mostly likely pick up the game for a short duration due to its age. Yet again you fail to see the importance and impact of the competitive scene, as well as the players within it. It's sad really the way uwe chose to turn their back on these players. I guess its not the first time. Now with a good chunk of players gone and those who stick around; with more time passing, it is inevitable that people will eventually lose interest completely. I just hope in the future, if there even is one, uwe(or another dev company perhaps) wont make the same mistakes.
Is there a way that UWE could have still released rapid patches that could have prevented this? I understand the desire not to have major shakeups in gameplay mid season, but that doesn't seem like a fatal issue on its own.
Rapid Iteration was a stupid idea in the first place, why the hell would you implement that kind of plan at such a late stage of the game, rapid iteration work best during beta / early access stages as the community has not yet "solidified". Metas, strategies and organisations especially need stability. This was a nightmare waiting to happen, now that I think about it, I prefered the old "monolithic" method. Atleast modders had enough time to pull up their pants before being bent over again.
Goodbye ENSL. I read till page 2, so apologies if there's something grand i missed.
comp scene essentially dying(since AUSNS has been gone already) reminds me of how things with NS:Combat ended up, great expectations at launch, dozens of servers on 3? continents, leading up to only few servers ever used. Secluded community servers only having players on them eventually.
That's your future now, grim as it sounds, there will always be something better in the horizon. Natural Selection it is not.
Step 1: schedule a game at a convinient time for all (a task that is incredibly easy and is never difficult as I'm sure you all know)
Step 2: ensure that a server is up and primed for the game time
Step 3: recheck with everyone that they know when the game time is
Step 4: switch your build of ns2 to use the new competitive branch:
Right click NS2> Properties > Beta tab > Select ENSL to download a 50 mb patch.
TADA! 4 mouse clicks
Step 5.a: ensure you can get ahold of the server operator
Step 5.b: ensure that the server operator remembered to switch their server over
Step 5.c: ensure you have a contact for someone connected to the server so they can switch the server over instead (feel free to cry a little here)
Step 6.a: check that your team remembered to switch their ns2 branch over
Step 6.b: re-explain to that one guy how to switch their ns2 branch over
Step 7: make sure the other team is ready and apologise for wasting their time
Step 8: realise the other teams is also faffing around with their 6 downloading the package at different speeds
Step 9: hear that someone blew their internet cap so they're downloading slower
Step 10: consider the events in your life that brought you to this moment
Step 11: ensure that match support also has their **** together
Step 12: now that the collective delays have postponed the match by half an hour respond to the message that the other team can only play for another 2 hours
Step 13: find another player to replace whoever inevitably dropped out
Step 14: learn that all other registered team replacements went to bed
Step 15: realise that your struggle is futile in this cruel and uncaring world
Step 16.a: find and agree to a merc who is a balanced replacement to your/their team
Step 16.b: the only free merc is a div1 player, you agree but now a wild argument has appeared
Step 16.c: ensure the merc is also using the correct branch of Ns2
Step 17: finish the night by playing one and a half maps between two teams who are bored to tears by all the technical bullshit that's been going on
Step 18: Try to console yourself with the fact that it could be worse. "Imagine trying to run a draft tournament?" You hear yourself say. But it is too late. The butterknife is in your hand. You know what to do. If only the comp experience was easier. "I would have liked to have seen Overwatch one last time" you say. /wrist
This isn't even the be all and end all. Say the server is booked for a later date. Say some random thing just came up. Say the only agreeable time for the match was during the middle of the day or after midnight. Trying to manage matches over different time zones is hard enough and people will always be imperfect adding this on top makes it a farce.
Can't you just make a copy of the different branch and rename it whenever you need to switch? I'm 90% sure that would work, and you'd only have to download it once. Besides, a lot of these problems sound like you'd have them anyway.
@_mod your list is inflated and disingenuous. Setting a match time, choosing a server, gathering players, and finding mercs are difficult problems that are unrelated to the ensl branch. You can try to argue that adding new problems to that list would push players' patience for bullshit over the edge. I disagree that the ensl branch would add significant problems.
You put the plight of server operators on your list. Do players care about how servers are run? Does it bother them if it's hard to manage? No; they pick one from the list based on ping and performance. So really the difficulty of servers to use the ensl branch is not a strain added to the average player. But perhaps it is a strain to the server operator, and therefore there will be fewer servers to choose from?
No. I run a server myself (infrequently populated, sadly), and it is incredibly easy to switch back and forth between branches. I do it all the time for playtesting. It can even be automated with a simple script to log into SteamCMD. Even if it were difficult to switch, how many gather and match servers are used for pubs? Would they ever be switching back to the pub branch?
I agree that, as a player, it is not 100% effortless to switch between branches. I think it is slightly less than effortless; we can agree to disagree about that. It could be that I have misplaced confidence in the average internet-using, online-game-playing Steam user's ability to click on buttons and understand a tree metaphor. So let's assume that it is indeed too difficult for people to switch frequently.
Stick to one branch! It is not an optimal solution, to be sure, but wouldn't you rather play comp than play nothing? You would miss out on pubs, sadly; perhaps some players would stick to the pub branch and miss out on comp instead. But I hope I am safe in my presumption that the competitive community enjoys and is passionate about playing the game they have built a community around.
Instead of players making the best of the situation, and playing whatever NS2 the crappy rapid iteration/breaking mods/ensl branch will let them play, we have people professing to be leaving in droves. The comp community has put up with a lot of bullshit from all sides, and I absolutely understand and agree with their frustration towards UWE. If this was the straw that broke the camel's back, so be it. Perhaps the community couldn't take any more disrespect. But I will not take anybody seriously if they say there was no way for competitive to continue, or that UWE gave them no options.
@F0rdPrefect Technical literacy is half the battle. Even if I figured out how I myself would do that. Explaining how to other people would also be another headache. Plus you still have all the other problems of people refusing, not listening, screwing up something else entirely, needing to sleep, "BRB Dinner 40 minutes ok?", etc.
Anyway my comp journey died with AusNs2. Didn't really like the prospect of playing at extremely random hours of the day on 350ms.
My point is that coordinating the zoo of people to all be on the same page is at times a herculean feat. Having to walk people through even the simplest changes can big time sink when it comes to staying on schedule for a league match. If you still think it's a simple one and done imagine any time you've spent 5-10+ minutes talking someone through cleaning out their NS2 workshop folder or walked someone through setting up their router/running a phone diagnostic using only voip/smoke signals.
That type of example probably doesn't account for all of the other extraneous mods being up to date and set to the correct branch on the server side either. - or the other things Simba pointed out in his ENSL post.
@Keats It's disingenuous to think that the complete list of things to go wrong happens every time. But even a few going off at once can delay a match for another night.
Finding the right server is a strain on match appointments as much as a server operator. Maybe the difference of opinion is because we come from different communities, one with an abundance of different servers, another with only a few. But those in my community absolutely do have players who care about what servers are being used based on things like stability, tick rate, whether it's commercially hosted or privately run (preferred), whether the admin or related people are even on line (which yes is/was/can be a frequent problem) to assist in any needed switches. Admins also have had to close their servers because of moves, costs, etc. so we do see a dearth of server operators and an increase in servers being geared towards pub play with minimal mods. Which does mean that in our specific case we would have to contact operators to ensure that they put up a new server for comp play which runs the risk for increased instability or the dearth of the public server in some specific cases.
I'm focusing on this aspect because I don't agree that it's as easy as people are saying. I do think there are other factors that are more pressing as to why the comp community is more disengaged with the game than before; and I do think the issues are more complex than some are alleging.
I don't think any of this boils down to one or two easy fixes or one or two problems.
As to sticking to one branch. AusNS2 which has been basically finished for a year now sees a greater shift towards pub play or an attempt at captains organised pub play. People do try to run pugs or leagues but they're obviously a fraction of what the AUS community once put out and sadly it's easier to get people off the pug/league boat than it is to convince them to board at this stage. Leagues that have been attempted since are hampered by player motivation and now at best there's a spontaneous scrim on every now and then.
There's nothing to say that ENSL will or has to end up like that especially given the still larger community (AUS had what about 8 teams at its peak?).
But I wouldn't be surprised to see a shift towards pub play and spontaneous scrims replacing ladders and sporadic tournaments in future among the players that stay.
The problem with trying to organise games using the pub branch among already known balance changes is probably the res tick at the moment. Played a few organised pubs today and it felt like an entire team of marines all buying weapons never fell below 40pres.
I think the next real test for this system will come whenever the next round of draft tournaments appears or a lot of gathers happen. Something with a big sample size.
I hope it works! I just think that the branch system isn't just an easy one, two, three! when you have to convince everyone to jump at once. Or that the scene will recover to it's previous numbers for some time if it does.
Logistical issues aside, migration to a separate branch is still quite Impractical. Sure it would be a band-aid to continue our stupid little league, but at what cost. Sort of feels like getting tossed to the curb. Might as well make it a non steam game. We'll download it like an HL1 mod and share the MegaFIle link. Just a few more clicks right, TADA! Not to mention it segregates the community even more. Anyway this all should of been taken into consideration before the "poo" storm. It would seem like it's too late now, damage has been done, people are packing their bags for good, and it sucks. Seeing as to what kind of hands the current state of ns is in; good riddance I guess.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
I'm sure some technical person can correct me, but:
Wouldn't it have been possible for the compmod to make a "total conversion" of ns2? Meaning, the compmod would have the complete copy of the ns2 lua code, making it independant on any changes in vanilla ns2. From what i understand this is possible to do.
The only changes the compmod would have to do during a season would then be to adapt to any engine changes, but those are very rare and could certainly be advertised in advance. I actually wonder why that sort of approach was never taken, rapid development cycle or not, it always seemed like the best option to me.
What they could have done differently, if they are so intent on shaking the game up, is add changes that are worth it.
As it stands, I know for a fact that many people in the competitive community are frustrated not only because the PDT basically doesn't give a flying f*ck about how their "rapid development" is screwing over the competitive scene, but also because the changes they are ruining the scene for are literally the most stupid changes that could be thought of.
well they did give a flying f*ck. Otherwise the steam season 9 branch would never have been developed. Also the rapid development is necessary because PDT has 3 months to make things happening. So better get them out early even if they are unbalanced atm.
I've said this before, people have been asking for changes that make the game actually BETTER: removing power nodes, removing cysts, removing fixed spawn locations. Many believe these changes would be amazing for ns2's gameplay, and while I personally don't know if this is the case, I acknowledge that it is 100% possible.
sounds like you want to play ns1... well do it then
But what does the PDT do instead of implementing changes that could actually improve the game's gameplay, they add retarded changes like: health bars, electrified rts? REALLY? Stuff no one asked for, that many people are actually against.
well nvm if those things are retarded or not but it seems like you are failing to see that balance is not the main concern of PDT atm.
Right now they are trying to get stuff into the game that is fun or has the potential to be fun.
This will probably continue like that for a while.
Once everything is in they can start balancing it.
Oh and for healthbars (yes it has been talked about alot). I played PCWs against high div 2 teams with them implemented and I didn't feel much change as alien. My lerk doesn't die more often because of it. (just my impression on them though)
Personally, if comp mod was being broken to actually make the game better by implementing actual good changes, I wouldn't mind, hell I would even encourage it. But this garbage that were being fed is what makes me believe that the PDT doesn't actually give a **** about the game. They only care about meeting the objective that was set for them by UWE, and it just so happens they don't care if they actually make the game better on the way.
Are healthbars and power surge changes the only things you dislike? Well if I were you I'd support/encourage them anyway. YOU KNOW they have the same goal with the game as you have.
Your goal for the game is to make ns2 a bigger and therefore better right?
Comments
There is never any action over the summer so at the very least ns2 is dead until September. Even then the damage is done and nothing short of making ns2 FTP or ns3 will make it noteworthy in any sense.
If you and TAWmageddon wanna start your own league in 5 days then gl but it wont be on the ensl.
Cool story, but not really a relevant reply to what I wrote.
The moment you see me do that call me on phone cuz my account got hacked by Mendasp to troll you.
Just so you know, A comp season with 23 active teams with 6+ players on each team has come to a halt. These were loyal long-term players that helped the game evolve and in turn attracted new players to pursue a higher level of skill. This was a bigger season than the last. We had an influx of new players transition from pubs to compete. New teams were formed. We also had more casters than before.
Ensl did not choose to close down it was forced to. Bridging the gap between the modders and the devs should of been uwe's first priority, not game shake ups, catered to rookies that will mostly likely pick up the game for a short duration due to its age. Yet again you fail to see the importance and impact of the competitive scene, as well as the players within it. It's sad really the way uwe chose to turn their back on these players. I guess its not the first time. Now with a good chunk of players gone and those who stick around; with more time passing, it is inevitable that people will eventually lose interest completely. I just hope in the future, if there even is one, uwe(or another dev company perhaps) wont make the same mistakes.
Is there a way that UWE could have still released rapid patches that could have prevented this? I understand the desire not to have major shakeups in gameplay mid season, but that doesn't seem like a fatal issue on its own.
They could have created a "comp build". An alternate patch version that would not be updated at all mid-season unless something was desperately needed (even bug fixes due to breaking essential comp mods). This probably could have been pushed through steams "betas" dropdown, only instead of updating more frequently like most beta opt-ins it would update less.
They did exactly that and it wasn't used if I understand correctly.
Right, so that still leaves the question of what they could have done differently, assuming rapid development.
I guess that explains what the "ensl season 9" beta option was in the dropdown.
Yeah I see it was mentioned in the thread earlier. As far as coordinating players... no sympathy. If comp players can't handle some relatively simple rules and procedures they shouldn't be playing comp to start with.
I can see how it would be frustrating for the modders, but if it was done properly it would have been a fire-and-forget thing that just involved duplicating the mod once and then never touching the duplicate again throughout the season. Comp mod wouldn't have even needed that much, if this worked the way I think it should basically all he would have needed to do is NOT update to match the pub builds.
What they could have done differently, if they are so intent on shaking the game up, is add changes that are worth it.
As it stands, I know for a fact that many people in the competitive community are frustrated not only because the PDT basically doesn't give a flying f*ck about how their "rapid development" is screwing over the competitive scene, but also because the changes they are ruining the scene for are literally the most stupid changes that could be thought of.
I've said this before, people have been asking for changes that make the game actually BETTER: removing power nodes, removing cysts, removing fixed spawn locations. Many believe these changes would be amazing for ns2's gameplay, and while I personally don't know if this is the case, I acknowledge that it is 100% possible.
But what does the PDT do instead of implementing changes that could actually improve the game's gameplay, they add retarded changes like: health bars, electrified rts? REALLY? Stuff no one asked for, that many people are actually against.
Personally, if comp mod was being broken to actually make the game better by implementing actual good changes, I wouldn't mind, hell I would even encourage it. But this garbage that were being fed is what makes me believe that the PDT doesn't actually give a shit about the game. They only care about meeting the objective that was set for them by UWE, and it just so happens they don't care if they actually make the game better on the way.
As for the beta branch, I have no idea how that stuff works, but from my understanding the admins themselves didn't want to sink in the time (which I assume would be considerable) to coordinate the use of the branch, which I think is perfectly justifiable since they are all volunteers. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
+999
You try wrangling them all before you call it easy.
As a clan leader in the Aus scene it was hard enough trying to get 6 to all be on the same page for a game. What makes you think running ad-hoc tech support for 150+ people switching steam branches would be easy to manage?
But GGs everyone
I suspect this power feud or whatever internet social breakdown it is, between certain people in the competitive community and certain people in UWE is part of all this, I think certain people want to see it all fall apart, bleh, shame.
Anyway despite all that, I'm out too, thanks to everyone (coders, admins, players) who made the ENSL what it was, gathers were the best time I had playing NS2, I had a great time with all the characters, even if a thick skin was required (some never understood that)!
Right click NS2> Properties > Beta tab > Select ENSL to download a 50 mb patch.
TADA! 4 mouse clicks
What everyone wanted or suggested as a better solution (A second mode within NS2 itself) would double the install size of the game, roughly a 23 GB size footprint, and it'd have to be maintained.
As far as I understand it (Because I did ask) It'd be a nightmare to maintain, from the build process to engine changes etc. If you know someone who is willing to maintain it, please let us know.
It's simply too much for the dev team when their focus is elsewhere. The ENSL branch should suffice and should come with zero issues... I really don't get the big hassle as someone who switches branches in that exact manner almost daily, and on shit farmland internet that isn't as fast as your 4G phone. It's better than nothing at least..
Im sure 150 people would rather be playing ns2 still.
Also
Please keep that disgusting potty mouth away from theese fourms. PM sent - wyz
I know for a fact that we've been asking for matchmaking for several years, think when the playerbase was around 1k. And if there would've been a matchmaking system think of how many players would be still around?
Right now you're forced to play it as an casual multiplayer game that costs money, not like Heroes and Generals and other F2P games
But the reason behind of not having a Matchmaking is them saying "it takes too long time to develop" we'll you've had more than 2 years to develop it instead. What the PDT and the CDT got in mind, is short quick shortcuts fixes and balances, nothing else! They cant see the long run fixes that are needed to be implemented. That's the problem with having a "3 month contract". You cant focus on the bigger picture, and feed bad patches instead to the game.
Step 2: ensure that a server is up and primed for the game time
Step 3: recheck with everyone that they know when the game time is
Step 4: switch your build of ns2 to use the new competitive branch: Step 5.a: ensure you can get ahold of the server operator
Step 5.b: ensure that the server operator remembered to switch their server over
Step 5.c: ensure you have a contact for someone connected to the server so they can switch the server over instead (feel free to cry a little here)
Step 6.a: check that your team remembered to switch their ns2 branch over
Step 6.b: re-explain to that one guy how to switch their ns2 branch over
Step 7: make sure the other team is ready and apologise for wasting their time
Step 8: realise the other teams is also faffing around with their 6 downloading the package at different speeds
Step 9: hear that someone blew their internet cap so they're downloading slower
Step 10: consider the events in your life that brought you to this moment
Step 11: ensure that match support also has their shit together
Step 12: now that the collective delays have postponed the match by half an hour respond to the message that the other team can only play for another 2 hours
Step 13: find another player to replace whoever inevitably dropped out
Step 14: learn that all other registered team replacements went to bed
Step 15: realise that your struggle is futile in this cruel and uncaring world
Step 16.a: find and agree to a merc who is a balanced replacement to your/their team
Step 16.b: the only free merc is a div1 player, you agree but now a wild argument has appeared
Step 16.c: ensure the merc is also using the correct branch of Ns2
Step 17: finish the night by playing one and a half maps between two teams who are bored to tears by all the technical bullshit that's been going on
Step 18: Try to console yourself with the fact that it could be worse. "Imagine trying to run a draft tournament?" You hear yourself say. But it is too late. The butterknife is in your hand. You know what to do. If only the comp experience was easier. "I would have liked to have seen Overwatch one last time" you say. /wrist
This isn't even the be all and end all. Say the server is booked for a later date. Say some random thing just came up. Say the only agreeable time for the match was during the middle of the day or after midnight. Trying to manage matches over different time zones is hard enough and people will always be imperfect adding this on top makes it a farce.
Rapid Iteration was a stupid idea in the first place, why the hell would you implement that kind of plan at such a late stage of the game, rapid iteration work best during beta / early access stages as the community has not yet "solidified". Metas, strategies and organisations especially need stability. This was a nightmare waiting to happen, now that I think about it, I prefered the old "monolithic" method. Atleast modders had enough time to pull up their pants before being bent over again.
Damned ! That sentence is perfect ! Can I use it at work when they're on my *ss or is it copyrighted ?
comp scene essentially dying(since AUSNS has been gone already) reminds me of how things with NS:Combat ended up, great expectations at launch, dozens of servers on 3? continents, leading up to only few servers ever used. Secluded community servers only having players on them eventually.
That's your future now, grim as it sounds, there will always be something better in the horizon. Natural Selection it is not.
Peace.
Can't you just make a copy of the different branch and rename it whenever you need to switch? I'm 90% sure that would work, and you'd only have to download it once. Besides, a lot of these problems sound like you'd have them anyway.
Instead of players making the best of the situation, and playing whatever NS2 the crappy rapid iteration/breaking mods/ensl branch will let them play, we have people professing to be leaving in droves. The comp community has put up with a lot of bullshit from all sides, and I absolutely understand and agree with their frustration towards UWE. If this was the straw that broke the camel's back, so be it. Perhaps the community couldn't take any more disrespect. But I will not take anybody seriously if they say there was no way for competitive to continue, or that UWE gave them no options.
Anyway my comp journey died with AusNs2. Didn't really like the prospect of playing at extremely random hours of the day on 350ms.
My point is that coordinating the zoo of people to all be on the same page is at times a herculean feat. Having to walk people through even the simplest changes can big time sink when it comes to staying on schedule for a league match. If you still think it's a simple one and done imagine any time you've spent 5-10+ minutes talking someone through cleaning out their NS2 workshop folder or walked someone through setting up their router/running a phone diagnostic using only voip/smoke signals.
That type of example probably doesn't account for all of the other extraneous mods being up to date and set to the correct branch on the server side either. - or the other things Simba pointed out in his ENSL post.
@Keats It's disingenuous to think that the complete list of things to go wrong happens every time. But even a few going off at once can delay a match for another night.
Finding the right server is a strain on match appointments as much as a server operator. Maybe the difference of opinion is because we come from different communities, one with an abundance of different servers, another with only a few. But those in my community absolutely do have players who care about what servers are being used based on things like stability, tick rate, whether it's commercially hosted or privately run (preferred), whether the admin or related people are even on line (which yes is/was/can be a frequent problem) to assist in any needed switches. Admins also have had to close their servers because of moves, costs, etc. so we do see a dearth of server operators and an increase in servers being geared towards pub play with minimal mods. Which does mean that in our specific case we would have to contact operators to ensure that they put up a new server for comp play which runs the risk for increased instability or the dearth of the public server in some specific cases.
I'm focusing on this aspect because I don't agree that it's as easy as people are saying. I do think there are other factors that are more pressing as to why the comp community is more disengaged with the game than before; and I do think the issues are more complex than some are alleging.
I don't think any of this boils down to one or two easy fixes or one or two problems.
As to sticking to one branch. AusNS2 which has been basically finished for a year now sees a greater shift towards pub play or an attempt at captains organised pub play. People do try to run pugs or leagues but they're obviously a fraction of what the AUS community once put out and sadly it's easier to get people off the pug/league boat than it is to convince them to board at this stage. Leagues that have been attempted since are hampered by player motivation and now at best there's a spontaneous scrim on every now and then.
There's nothing to say that ENSL will or has to end up like that especially given the still larger community (AUS had what about 8 teams at its peak?).
But I wouldn't be surprised to see a shift towards pub play and spontaneous scrims replacing ladders and sporadic tournaments in future among the players that stay.
The problem with trying to organise games using the pub branch among already known balance changes is probably the res tick at the moment. Played a few organised pubs today and it felt like an entire team of marines all buying weapons never fell below 40pres.
I think the next real test for this system will come whenever the next round of draft tournaments appears or a lot of gathers happen. Something with a big sample size.
I hope it works! I just think that the branch system isn't just an easy one, two, three! when you have to convince everyone to jump at once. Or that the scene will recover to it's previous numbers for some time if it does.
UWE should ponder step 10:
Wouldn't it have been possible for the compmod to make a "total conversion" of ns2? Meaning, the compmod would have the complete copy of the ns2 lua code, making it independant on any changes in vanilla ns2. From what i understand this is possible to do.
The only changes the compmod would have to do during a season would then be to adapt to any engine changes, but those are very rare and could certainly be advertised in advance. I actually wonder why that sort of approach was never taken, rapid development cycle or not, it always seemed like the best option to me.
well they did give a flying f*ck. Otherwise the steam season 9 branch would never have been developed. Also the rapid development is necessary because PDT has 3 months to make things happening. So better get them out early even if they are unbalanced atm.
sounds like you want to play ns1... well do it then
well nvm if those things are retarded or not but it seems like you are failing to see that balance is not the main concern of PDT atm.
Right now they are trying to get stuff into the game that is fun or has the potential to be fun.
This will probably continue like that for a while.
Once everything is in they can start balancing it.
Oh and for healthbars (yes it has been talked about alot). I played PCWs against high div 2 teams with them implemented and I didn't feel much change as alien. My lerk doesn't die more often because of it. (just my impression on them though)
Are healthbars and power surge changes the only things you dislike? Well if I were you I'd support/encourage them anyway. YOU KNOW they have the same goal with the game as you have.
Your goal for the game is to make ns2 a bigger and therefore better right?