Health bars on enemies

alsteralster Members Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Posts: 209 Advanced user
I saw this on trello. Please don't do it or even make it an option. This ain't a MMO or single player game. Imagine if Halo, COD, BF, CS, or TF had enemy health bars when you damage them. You want to help new players, but this isn't the right way of doing it.
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Comments

  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    Yeah it's a bit iffy having them for players due to tracking issues and effectively killing the skulk confusion tactic, though showing the health bars for enemy structures when attacked by your team would be appreciated imo. It also would help provide feedback where you're aoe damaging structures through the use of bile bomb or grenades.

    Preferably the health bars would be small and minimalistic to not take up too much screen space as well, sorta like the old C&C rts bars.

    hgqZs4o.png

    For players though, what if you made it so you can see a player's name instantly, but it takes a second or two of sustained tracking for their health bar to show only to you until you look away. This would keep the guerilla tactics of the game largely unaffected by the inclusion of a enemy health bar, and still provide better feedback in cases where you're attacking somebody and unsure if you're doing damage or not.
    Post edited by IeptBarakat on
    bambus
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert TexasMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Posts: 2,829 admin
    Yeah it's a bit iffy having them for players due to tracking issues and effectively killing the skulk confusion tactic, though showing the health bars for enemy structures when attacked by your team would be appreciated imo. It also would help provide feedback where you're aoe damaging structures through the use of bile bomb or grenades.

    Preferably the health bars would be small and minimalistic to not take up too much screen space as well, sorta like the old C&C bars.

    hgqZs4o.png

    For players though, what if you made it so you can see a player's name instantly, but it takes a second or two of sustained tracking for their health bar to show only to you until you look away. This would keep the guerilla tactics of the game largely unaffected by the inclusion of a enemy health bar, and still provide better feedback in cases where you're attacking somebody and unsure if you're doing damage or not.

    Dune 2000!!! :)
    RevanCorana
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    @IeptBarakat that would definitely require a maximum distance of about 2 (maybe 3 or 4) meters like it currently is.

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

  • MoFo1MoFo1 United StatesMembers Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Posts: 729 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    Oh my god no.. This would totally fubar balance imo...

    Edit: For starters just take a look at Aura, an alien specific ability that lets you locate Marines through walls, and more importantly determine how much health they have left. Add in a health bar and you completely negate that aspect of aura's usefulness, even further pushing that hive out of the spotlight and into permanent 3rd hive territory. Not to mention that you are essentially giving all Marines that aspect of aura for free all the time.. So they get a free (and very powerful) permanent upgrade.

    I also fear the problem of the health bar giving aliens positions away far too easily. A health bar above a hiding alien makes them a hundred times easier to spot, especially if their name is above the bar. Also what about skulks waiting around corners to ambush, a hovering health bar over their head is like a sign saying "Hey I'm right here, shoot me!"

    It's already bad enough how often you get plastered onto the Marine minimap when there is no way any Marine had line of sight on you...



    But really just no.. For the love of gorgies everywhere no.
    Post edited by MoFo1 on
    develcooliticlhooq
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    While I am not going to post my opinions on the feature yet because I wish for everyone to experience it with fresh eyes first, @MoFo1 It does not replace aura in any way really.

    Aura shows you enemies through walls.. this does not.
    Aura shows you everyone in the room regardless of what action you take or dont take.. this does not, especially for a melee team that can't simultaneously damage an entire room of marines.
    Aura stays on constantly no matter what.. this disappears quickly until damage is dealt by you again, and disappears indefinitely behind any cover.

    So just keep in mind you're going to have to inflict damage first in order to see it, and even then it is fleeting. If it replaces anything, it replaces damage numbers which have been removed as a result of this.

    There's definitely arguments for it and against it, but I just wanted to clear that part up at least.

    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
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    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
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    NordicMBell
  • YojimboYojimbo EnglandMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Posts: 1,252 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    While I am not going to post my opinions on the feature yet because I wish for everyone to experience it with fresh eyes first, @MoFo1 It does not replace aura in any way really.

    Aura shows you enemies through walls.. this does not.
    Aura shows you everyone in the room regardless of what action you take or dont take.. this does not, especially for a melee team that can't simultaneously damage an entire room of marines.
    Aura stays on constantly no matter what.. this disappears quickly until damage is dealt by you again, and disappears indefinitely behind any cover.

    So just keep in mind you're going to have to inflict damage first in order to see it, and even then it is fleeting. If it replaces anything, it replaces damage numbers which have been removed as a result of this.

    There's definitely arguments for it and against it, but I just wanted to clear that part up at least.

    Community backlash imminent lol
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South EnglandMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    you could build it into obs/scan or upgrade of those if you really wanted to be cool (and avoid any potential inconsistency issues with ambiguous cases of visiblity and damage-taking at the same time)
    Too weird to live, yet too rare to die
    ChrisStark
  • TyrwingTyrwing SwedenMembers Join Date: 2015-11-23 Member: 209435Posts: 41 Advanced user
    Yojimbo wrote: »

    Community backlash imminent lol

    I know you love to provoke, but I honestly don't see your point of view in this one. How does this "shake up the game" as much as just taking a longstanding element and replacing it with the other side of the coin?

    I can't see the HP bar bringing anything interesting, it is already covered where it is necessary, in the comview. Instead you are taking away the damagenumbers, horray.
    This all feels like it is the wrong way about, like this is something that should have been in the alpha/beta and then upgraded to what we have today, because all it seems to be is a revert to something less useful.

    TheriusNousWanderermigalski
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws DenmarkMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Oddly Dirty Bomb has it and I initially didn't even notice it and it also didn't feel out of place. But in case of NS(2), knowing how much HP a retreating aliens has, changes the whole combat scenario as everyone would focus fire the retreating fade/lerk. Making those lifeforms quite a bit more stressful to play and probably less powerful with their used to be hidden HP/AP values now being broadcasted on all channels...
    Is the health bar global to all team mates, or is it only on your local client? If it's local, I don't see this criticism, it's not much different from having damage numbers in most cases.
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    And wouldn't this also make enemies visible that are hiding in the shadows/vents/rafters? Even if it is a hitscan/crosshair scan thing, that would be a huge nono...
    If I understand correctly, you have to actually shoot the target, not just hover over it? If so, again, it's not much different from damage numbers or hitsounds.

    All of that said.. I fear it's a bad idea as well, simply because, damage numbers seem more useful at first glance imo. But really, you'd have to play with it to understand correctly I think.
  • develdevel Members Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Posts: 352 Advanced user
    rantology wrote: »
    we're attempting to give everyone (especially newer players) this same sense of how much damage you've actually done.

    Be careful to not to give the information about how much HP is left.

    Newer players have far bigger problems when playing Fade or Lerk. I'd prefer to boost rookie Fade, not rookie Marine.
    BollwerkObstriegel
  • BicsumBicsum Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    If it works similar to the name tags, then I see no problem with it. It should just block your view as few as possible and it should be toggleable.
  • develdevel Members Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Posts: 352 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    how much health is left

    No, no, no, no, no, no!
    lhooq
  • sotanahtsotanaht Members Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    Instead of healthbars, how about showing damage on the models similar to how Exos work already?
    MBellborsdyBollwerkImmortalKing
  • YojimboYojimbo EnglandMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Posts: 1,252 Advanced user
    Tyrwing wrote: »
    Yojimbo wrote: »

    Community backlash imminent lol

    I know you love to provoke, but I honestly don't see your point of view in this one. How does this "shake up the game" as much as just taking a longstanding element and replacing it with the other side of the coin?

    I can't see the HP bar bringing anything interesting, it is already covered where it is necessary, in the comview. Instead you are taking away the damagenumbers, horray.
    This all feels like it is the wrong way about, like this is something that should have been in the alpha/beta and then upgraded to what we have today, because all it seems to be is a revert to something less useful.

    Oh no you got me completely wrong, I am indifferent either way to be honest, @rantology already summed it up as veteran inherently know how much HP a lifeform has left regardless, to be frank this is no different from a commander clicking on an onos that is running away screaming 800! 500! 200!

    Less work and screaming for the commander is a welcome change in my eyes.

    I am just merely commenting on the state of mind from a small vocal minority to whatever change PDT makes (good or bad) someone is always there to whine.
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
    HowserSantaClawsChrisStark
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Oddly Dirty Bomb has it and I initially didn't even notice it and it also didn't feel out of place. But in case of NS(2), knowing how much HP a retreating aliens has, changes the whole combat scenario as everyone would focus fire the retreating fade/lerk. Making those lifeforms quite a bit more stressful to play and probably less powerful with their used to be hidden HP/AP values now being broadcasted on all channels...
    Is the health bar global to all team mates, or is it only on your local client? If it's local, I don't see this criticism, it's not much different from having damage numbers in most cases.
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    And wouldn't this also make enemies visible that are hiding in the shadows/vents/rafters? Even if it is a hitscan/crosshair scan thing, that would be a huge nono...
    If I understand correctly, you have to actually shoot the target, not just hover over it? If so, again, it's not much different from damage numbers or hitsounds.

    All of that said.. I fear it's a bad idea as well, simply because, damage numbers seem more useful at first glance imo. But really, you'd have to play with it to understand correctly I think.

    In Dirty Bomb friendly name tags/healthbar/ammo&health&revive auto-request icons, depending on the class you're playing, are available all the time through walls.


    The enemy health bars are only available client side for you on your screen, that is if you damage them. You lose the healthbar about half a second after your last damage shot. There is no scanning of area to make them show up.


    Also the deathcam is pretty cool, it creates a frozen ghost image of your character and the enemy character, showing you information about what weapon is used, how much health they have left and the hitscan line or explosion that killed you (killshot). And your camera is locked on your wounded character, while you're able to pan around still and observe the scene.
    Post edited by Kouji_San on

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

    Yojimbo
  • BroseidonBroseidon Members Join Date: 2011-07-18 Member: 110935Posts: 136 Advanced user
    It think this would help new marines but new players playing higher lifeforms would probably be punished. Because it's very easy to remember how many bites/swipes a marine can eat before dying but marines usually have a harder time keeping track on how much more they need to shoot a lifeform.

    btw if this goes in would it mean that Aura is going to be a redundant personal upgrade for the shade hive?
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  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    Broseidon wrote: »
    It think this would help new marines but new players playing higher lifeforms would probably be punished. Because it's very easy to remember how many bites/swipes a marine can eat before dying but marines usually have a harder time keeping track on how much more they need to shoot a lifeform.

    btw if this goes in would it mean that Aura is going to be a redundant personal upgrade for the shade hive?

    No. Read the thread. Specifically Ironhorse's post.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    IronHorseNordic
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NYMembers, Constellation Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Posts: 1,481 Advanced user
    I'm all for this if draw damage is removed. I fucking hate draw damage.
    mattji104
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United StatesMembers Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Posts: 729 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    I suppose if it ONLY shows up while you're being damaged it might not be quite as bad as I fear, though i have to say it does make me worry about Fading or Lerking... Damage numbers don't highlight how low you are like a health bar would...

    I think it would probably make me a more cowardly Onos as well (ie never engaging any marines without full health) but I guess if they roll out this change we'll just have to see how it goes..

    My primary worry about changes like this is the chance that they could make it easier for pros to dominate.. The pro level players in NS2 don't need help ruining pub games...
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WIMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    TBH, if it is going to be implemented as Dirty Bomb does it . Only visible for you, for half a second during your damage dealing session and no crosshair scan to show the bars. I would in effect only change the information available for new player and remove the hidden meaning of damage numbers (hidden behind knowing about an arbitrary number)

    Basically it would eliminate the gap in game knowledge between new players and intermediate and above who know the damage numbers by heart. I mean this knowledge isn't based on skill, and is kinda a "hidden value". Damage numbers don't communicate anything to new players other than they did damage.


    If this were to be implemented you'd even get new players yelling. "Shoot that Onos, I almost got him!!!" Because now the newbies also know that it is almost dead based on a HP/AP bar. And since it is client side (on doing damage), it wouldn't broadcast it to everyone. So basically experienced players will still have to call out targets based on bars instead of numbers. That is the biggest difference.

    -> There is maybe on small concern about this though, tagging enemies with one bullet/spit/parasite/spike to "probe" for information. Although I think, even though it might be an issue (which has to be tested), I think this might be blown a bit out of proportion. Usually experience players know instinctively where and what to shoot/spit/bite with focus fire/slime/teeth :tongue:

    Another concern, with the suggestion of removing damage numbers... That is, with experience, more accurate to call out in competitive games!
    -> Calling out 326 damage vs "um it has 2-something dots left on it's bar?" So it might not be a good idea to remove damage numbers for high level play...



    Technically the change would be insignificant for general gameplay. For experienced players it would slightly change calling out targets based on bars vs "hidden number knowledge", I still think damage numbers will have to stay anyway! But it would give newbies a huge boost in terms of relaying better information, compared to these arbitrary damage numbers. It will probably ease the frustration of not knowing how much you need to tickle them enemies for them to keel over :D
    Post edited by IronHorse on

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

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  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Posts: 773 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    The health bars only show if you shoot the alien. They go away really quick, so you have to keep doing damage to keep seeing health bars. They don't show behind walls. They only show for the local client, and not for your team mates. The healthbars make it so you can easily see how much damage you are doing and how much health is left. Basically, it is just damage numbers done in a different way.

    Before you judge the idea on its own, try it out for a days.
    It is not the same like damage numbers, that is the problem. Damage number do not show you how many HP the opponent has left.
    Vetinaridevelcoolitic
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WIMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    @Kouji_San I know what you are trying to convey but it isn't at all what I was referring to in my post. A skulk could run into a room, para each marine once and tell his team which one has armor and which one doesn't. This type of knowledge doesn't have anything to do with hidden damage numbers. Its simple information that can tip the battle in your favor by quickly dispatching hurt marines. This knowledge had to be purchased via aura previously... but the change makes it readily available for a skulk or lerk to exploit.

    You are correct in the sense that the change wouldn't affect marine play. Aliens are all typically at max hp before a team fight so it really wouldn't matter.
  • BicsumBicsum Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    joshhh wrote: »
    Knowing the enemy hp every time you damage them is stupid broken. It helps decision making pre and during engagements to an extreme extent. I understand the pdt wants to use ns2 as a "hey-lets-try-this-random-idea-sandbox"... but somewhere you have to just say lolnope.

    I don't see how it would be broken, if it helps decision making. What would it break exactly?

    I would agree that it would lower the team play skill ceiling, since you wouldn't necessarily have to call what lifeform you've damaged, or that marine X is a 2 bite, but the benefit could be that everyone improves their play, and makes better decisions. Especially on pub. Life forms that should have died, will die, and it would have been the fault of the life form, since it made the wrong decision to engage or overcommit.

    Also, I think that rookies should play exactly the same game as everybody else, because otherwise they will not learn the game properly. Not to mention that the 5 hours play on rookieservers won't make you a nonrookie.


    edit: too late, I guess
  • ArchieArchie AntarcticaMembers, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Posts: 441 Advanced user
    edited May 2016
    This is such a ridiculous change, mowing down skulks and lifeforms is so much easier now, my brain just subconsciously switches between lifeforms depending on there HP and instantly snaps back to the higher HP guy, even if it's not the right decision for myself to do, this feature is not liked by me, it's too overpowered. It's not something that belongs in NS2 and i question the thought of whoever just blindly agreed to the feature to begin with as to why you wouldn't speak out in regards to the problematic nature of it, sure you want to keep your position and be loved, but you need to do alot more then that to actually make it liked by the core player base.


    @rantology Not even sure why you as a competitive player would think this is a good idea even in the slightest, it makes it far easier to slaughter skulks when being swarmed, or in those situations where you rush into a tech point find a gorge, start attacking it and 2 skulks come for you, then a low HP fade comes for a heal or skulks come for heals, there is a chance they would have survived now it's up to the individual skill level of the player to survive.

    Cool guys, just awesome!
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