@Therius I'm glad you used Biodome for your example because it illustrates my point perfectly. Right after it came out it was just as hated as Derelict is now. However now that people have slowly started learning the map over time it's beginning to get played more.
@Loki. Do you have to be a mapper to join in on the playtesting of custom maps? I've dabbled in mapping before (CoD4 and HL2 mainly) and while I don't have the time or patience to do it myself anymore, I wouldn't mind checking out new maps and giving feedback if you need people.
Also kudos on Kodiak. I think it's one of the best maps in the game. Its just so well balanced, it's sad that people don't give it a chance.
@Therius I'm glad you used Biodome for your example because it illustrates my point perfectly. Right after it came out it was just as hated as Derelict is now. However now that people have slowly started learning the map over time it's beginning to get played more.
If I recall correctly, biodome got a lot of flak for perfomance issues... not because it played badly.
I think it would help if maps could have more interaction, like elevators, weldable vents etc to seperate them from one another. Howser is right in that theres only a handful of possible layouts that work remotely well and then each map is just a small variation on that. Maps thats stray from this pattern are not considered to be balanced and trying to find another new layout is an effort in futility
I think it would help if maps could have more interaction, like elevators, weldable vents etc to seperate them from one another. Howser is right in that theres only a handful of possible layouts that work remotely well and then each map is just a small variation on that. Maps thats stray from this pattern are not considered to be balanced and trying to find another new layout is an effort in futility
And they could more easily right after removing cysts, moveable arcs, drifters, and macs
I think it would help if maps could have more interaction, like elevators, weldable vents etc to seperate them from one another. Howser is right in that theres only a handful of possible layouts that work remotely well and then each map is just a small variation on that. Maps thats stray from this pattern are not considered to be balanced and trying to find another new layout is an effort in futility
And they could more easily right after removing cysts, moveable arcs, drifters, and macs
@Therius I'm glad you used Biodome for your example because it illustrates my point perfectly. Right after it came out it was just as hated as Derelict is now. However now that people have slowly started learning the map over time it's beginning to get played more.
If I recall correctly, biodome got a lot of flak for perfomance issues... not because it played badly.
Well to be fair, at least half the complaints I hear about Derelict are about performance issues. (Primarily "fps drops")
I think it would help if maps could have more interaction, like elevators, weldable vents etc to seperate them from one another.
Oh my god I agree with this SO much... My favorite maps have always been the more interactive ones. I still remember the best map I ever played in any FPS was in HL2. An apartment complex with doors that could be opened/closed (and some that could be locked) televisions and stereos that could be turned on/off, lights that could be turned on/off, a few walls that could be destroyed, and two secret passages that could be opened/closed... It was by far the most fun I've ever had playing a video game.
Just a few months ago I joined the DMD server while they were testing out a new map (can't remember the name) and I was blown away to find that it had working elevators and doors that could be opened/closed! We ran around on the map for about a half hour (not playing just checking it out, basically getting a tour) and while I haven't actually had the chance to play it, it still looks like an amazing map and I can't wait to play it in an actual game.
What really makes me sad is the thought that most of the community would probably write that map off as "trash" without even playing a single game on it.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
@Kouji_San I want what was promised, 1/3 old, 1/3 new, 1/3 revised. Sososo much was changed for the purpose of being worse that it doesn't make sense.
Neither Macs no Drifters are a reasonable tradeoff, in my mind, for elevators, weldables, zero-ramp height changes and anything else. Not even a reasonable tradeoff for any single one of those things
@Kouji_San I want what was promised, 1/3 old, 1/3 new, 1/3 revised. Sososo much was changed for the purpose of being worse that it doesn't make sense.
Neither Macs no Drifters are a reasonable tradeoff, in my mind, for elevators, weldables, zero-ramp height changes and anything else. Not even a reasonable tradeoff for any single one of those things
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
docking2 is actually mroe balanced than people think it is. Atleast according to the games I have seen. Some rooms are a bit too marine favoured but that is actually due to the map still being in an alpha stage (yes 2,5 years of development and still in alpha)
The fact you know your testers provide bad feedback yet don't encourage better feedback is why it's your own fault.
Question people, or if they can't explain, remove them, don't sit there and harp on about it as the reason.
I would not have made a post concerning the types of feedback if I didn't encourage good feedback, something you of course would know. A great way to give feedback though, is also to outline it in a way that doesn't turn people away. You can be critical without being noxious. You've given great feedback in the past without the contempt, I'm not sure why the change of heart.
Here's a custom map for you, it's for gungame mode.
I am currently writing a guide for fast effective method of converting from other games, more specifically any Valve game, can convert a map from hl to dota2 etc, it doesn't use the method described in any of the other threads which is why it's not the same, all you'll need to do is extract/convert textures + models, and once you get the methodology down, you can have a whole map working withen 3hours depending on the amount of assets involved.
@Therius I'm glad you used Biodome for your example because it illustrates my point perfectly. Right after it came out it was just as hated as Derelict is now. However now that people have slowly started learning the map over time it's beginning to get played more.
If I recall correctly, biodome got a lot of flak for perfomance issues... not because it played badly.
Well to be fair, at least half the complaints I hear about Derelict are about performance issues. (Primarily "fps drops")
I think it would help if maps could have more interaction, like elevators, weldable vents etc to seperate them from one another.
Oh my god I agree with this SO much... My favorite maps have always been the more interactive ones. I still remember the best map I ever played in any FPS was in HL2. An apartment complex with doors that could be opened/closed (and some that could be locked) televisions and stereos that could be turned on/off, lights that could be turned on/off, a few walls that could be destroyed, and two secret passages that could be opened/closed... It was by far the most fun I've ever had playing a video game.
Just a few months ago I joined the DMD server while they were testing out a new map (can't remember the name) and I was blown away to find that it had working elevators and doors that could be opened/closed! We ran around on the map for about a half hour (not playing just checking it out, basically getting a tour) and while I haven't actually had the chance to play it, it still looks like an amazing map and I can't wait to play it in an actual game.
What really makes me sad is the thought that most of the community would probably write that map off as "trash" without even playing a single game on it.
DMD has versions of several official maps with added buttons and moving things. They are played frequently, probably because there's no other choice, but almost nobody likes the additions. Usually they add nothing of value and sometimes they just break.
They've also made changes like allowing marines to spawn in different areas, like platform in biodome, which tends to highlight just how broken some of those areas are, with unassailable gorges biling platform from above.
I generally try to vote new maps whenever I can. Caged and Jambi, Kodiak, even Derelict and Nexus occasionally. Some, like Eclipse, are still awful though.
@Therius I'm glad you used Biodome for your example because it illustrates my point perfectly. Right after it came out it was just as hated as Derelict is now. However now that people have slowly started learning the map over time it's beginning to get played more.
If I recall correctly, biodome got a lot of flak for perfomance issues... not because it played badly.
Well to be fair, at least half the complaints I hear about Derelict are about performance issues. (Primarily "fps drops")
I think it would help if maps could have more interaction, like elevators, weldable vents etc to seperate them from one another.
Oh my god I agree with this SO much... My favorite maps have always been the more interactive ones. I still remember the best map I ever played in any FPS was in HL2. An apartment complex with doors that could be opened/closed (and some that could be locked) televisions and stereos that could be turned on/off, lights that could be turned on/off, a few walls that could be destroyed, and two secret passages that could be opened/closed... It was by far the most fun I've ever had playing a video game.
Just a few months ago I joined the DMD server while they were testing out a new map (can't remember the name) and I was blown away to find that it had working elevators and doors that could be opened/closed! We ran around on the map for about a half hour (not playing just checking it out, basically getting a tour) and while I haven't actually had the chance to play it, it still looks like an amazing map and I can't wait to play it in an actual game.
What really makes me sad is the thought that most of the community would probably write that map off as "trash" without even playing a single game on it.
DMD has versions of several official maps with added buttons and moving things. They are played frequently, probably because there's no other choice, but almost nobody likes the additions. Usually they add nothing of value and sometimes they just break.
They've also made changes like allowing marines to spawn in different areas, like platform in biodome, which tends to highlight just how broken some of those areas are, with unassailable gorges biling platform from above.
I generally try to vote new maps whenever I can. Caged and Jambi, Kodiak, even Derelict and Nexus occasionally. Some, like Eclipse, are still awful though.
I know they have their own versions of the maps, but the map I was referring to was an entirely custom one.
Also the only thing wrong with their change to Biodome was giving Marines platform spawn. The way they reworked the agri labs RT is great.
Some of their other changes just need people to give them a chance though. Like the wall in nanogrid on Veil. When you first play with it the whole idea seems fubar... But after a few games you realize that it kind of allows both sides to take nano back away from the other team easier, which tends to cause more back and forth action. (at least in my experience)
Perhaps if one analysed the win/lose ratio of map design in detail, more comprehensive guide on balance could be reached. On here there's an alien/marine win ratio of 50/50, now look how it stacks up on a per-map basis. See how descent and mineshaft distinctively vary.
One of the things which bothers me about a community for a game having established gameplay, is that anything which deviates from the norm is unbalanced. Rather than coming up with different strategies for different environments.
Imagine NS2 without phase gates or Gorge tunnels, it would take away many of the permutations out of the commander & gorge roles. It would certainly make for long games, but it would likely yield bland, low quality matches. Sometimes you need open-ended level gameplay, rather than consistently pre-defined level structures.
Some of their other changes just need people to give them a chance though. Like the wall in nanogrid on Veil. When you first play with it the whole idea seems fubar... But after a few games you realize that it kind of allows both sides to take nano back away from the other team easier, which tends to cause more back and forth action. (at least in my experience)
Don't kid yourself. The wall is pointless. If anything, it helps marines take nano easier without arcs. Don't forget how poorly implemented it was as well... ie. you can walk whips and crags through the wall.
I just want to point out that Scrajm made wondefull post about map balancing long time ago and it still applies to this version of the game. In my opinion, understanging Scrajm's words for map balancing and variation is even more important than map testing with casual/mid-level competitive players. Here you go: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/128807/making-maps-competitive/p1
Some of their other changes just need people to give them a chance though. Like the wall in nanogrid on Veil. When you first play with it the whole idea seems fubar... But after a few games you realize that it kind of allows both sides to take nano back away from the other team easier, which tends to cause more back and forth action. (at least in my experience)
Don't kid yourself. The wall is pointless. If anything, it helps marines take nano easier without arcs. Don't forget how poorly implemented it was as well... ie. you can walk whips and crags through the wall.
Walking whips and crags through the wall is obviously a glitch that needs to be fixed.
It helps aliens take nano back easier as well. With the wall up they can easily swarm the side without the phasegate and take it, then they can either bile over the wall, or build up some whips along the wall and then hit the button to drop it.
Besides even if it isn't "perfect" it's something new and refreshing that actually adds some fun to the gameplay.
Some of their other changes just need people to give them a chance though. Like the wall in nanogrid on Veil. When you first play with it the whole idea seems fubar... But after a few games you realize that it kind of allows both sides to take nano back away from the other team easier, which tends to cause more back and forth action. (at least in my experience)
Don't kid yourself. The wall is pointless. If anything, it helps marines take nano easier without arcs. Don't forget how poorly implemented it was as well... ie. you can walk whips and crags through the wall.
Walking whips and crags through the wall is obviously a glitch that needs to be fixed.
It helps aliens take nano back easier as well. With the wall up they can easily swarm the side without the phasegate and take it, then they can either bile over the wall, or build up some whips along the wall and then hit the button to drop it.
Besides even if it isn't "perfect" it's something new and refreshing that actually adds some fun to the gameplay.
Aren't you missing the point that marines control the wall? When they take nano, you would lower the wall and just hold it like normal...
Some of their other changes just need people to give them a chance though. Like the wall in nanogrid on Veil. When you first play with it the whole idea seems fubar... But after a few games you realize that it kind of allows both sides to take nano back away from the other team easier, which tends to cause more back and forth action. (at least in my experience)
Don't kid yourself. The wall is pointless. If anything, it helps marines take nano easier without arcs. Don't forget how poorly implemented it was as well... ie. you can walk whips and crags through the wall.
Walking whips and crags through the wall is obviously a glitch that needs to be fixed.
It helps aliens take nano back easier as well. With the wall up they can easily swarm the side without the phasegate and take it, then they can either bile over the wall, or build up some whips along the wall and then hit the button to drop it.
Besides even if it isn't "perfect" it's something new and refreshing that actually adds some fun to the gameplay.
Aren't you missing the point that marines control the wall? When they take nano, you would lower the wall and just hold it like normal...
Both teams can hit the button to raise/lower the wall when the timer is up.
Comments
@Loki. Do you have to be a mapper to join in on the playtesting of custom maps? I've dabbled in mapping before (CoD4 and HL2 mainly) and while I don't have the time or patience to do it myself anymore, I wouldn't mind checking out new maps and giving feedback if you need people.
Also kudos on Kodiak. I think it's one of the best maps in the game. Its just so well balanced, it's sad that people don't give it a chance.
You just have to sign away your soul to ... Wait
@Loki get back to work you trickster
If I recall correctly, biodome got a lot of flak for perfomance issues... not because it played badly.
And they could more easily right after removing cysts, moveable arcs, drifters, and macs
Pfft you just want NS with better graphics
You mean you wouldn't want a summer home in freaking space? Because I would.
"“Just go out and talk to a tree. Make friends with it.” - Wyzcrak Bob Ross
Well to be fair, at least half the complaints I hear about Derelict are about performance issues. (Primarily "fps drops")
Oh my god I agree with this SO much... My favorite maps have always been the more interactive ones. I still remember the best map I ever played in any FPS was in HL2. An apartment complex with doors that could be opened/closed (and some that could be locked) televisions and stereos that could be turned on/off, lights that could be turned on/off, a few walls that could be destroyed, and two secret passages that could be opened/closed... It was by far the most fun I've ever had playing a video game.
Just a few months ago I joined the DMD server while they were testing out a new map (can't remember the name) and I was blown away to find that it had working elevators and doors that could be opened/closed! We ran around on the map for about a half hour (not playing just checking it out, basically getting a tour) and while I haven't actually had the chance to play it, it still looks like an amazing map and I can't wait to play it in an actual game.
What really makes me sad is the thought that most of the community would probably write that map off as "trash" without even playing a single game on it.
Neither Macs no Drifters are a reasonable tradeoff, in my mind, for elevators, weldables, zero-ramp height changes and anything else. Not even a reasonable tradeoff for any single one of those things
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Category:Entities
>insert sad face<
Question people, or if they can't explain, remove them, don't sit there and harp on about it as the reason.
I would not have made a post concerning the types of feedback if I didn't encourage good feedback, something you of course would know. A great way to give feedback though, is also to outline it in a way that doesn't turn people away. You can be critical without being noxious. You've given great feedback in the past without the contempt, I'm not sure why the change of heart.
Here's a custom map for you, it's for gungame mode.
I am currently writing a guide for fast effective method of converting from other games, more specifically any Valve game, can convert a map from hl to dota2 etc, it doesn't use the method described in any of the other threads which is why it's not the same, all you'll need to do is extract/convert textures + models, and once you get the methodology down, you can have a whole map working withen 3hours depending on the amount of assets involved.
DMD has versions of several official maps with added buttons and moving things. They are played frequently, probably because there's no other choice, but almost nobody likes the additions. Usually they add nothing of value and sometimes they just break.
They've also made changes like allowing marines to spawn in different areas, like platform in biodome, which tends to highlight just how broken some of those areas are, with unassailable gorges biling platform from above.
I generally try to vote new maps whenever I can. Caged and Jambi, Kodiak, even Derelict and Nexus occasionally. Some, like Eclipse, are still awful though.
That's called "shoehorning"
True, but as proof of concept it generally just proves the concept doesn't work that well.
I know they have their own versions of the maps, but the map I was referring to was an entirely custom one.
Also the only thing wrong with their change to Biodome was giving Marines platform spawn. The way they reworked the agri labs RT is great.
Some of their other changes just need people to give them a chance though. Like the wall in nanogrid on Veil. When you first play with it the whole idea seems fubar... But after a few games you realize that it kind of allows both sides to take nano back away from the other team easier, which tends to cause more back and forth action. (at least in my experience)
One of the things which bothers me about a community for a game having established gameplay, is that anything which deviates from the norm is unbalanced. Rather than coming up with different strategies for different environments.
Imagine NS2 without phase gates or Gorge tunnels, it would take away many of the permutations out of the commander & gorge roles. It would certainly make for long games, but it would likely yield bland, low quality matches. Sometimes you need open-ended level gameplay, rather than consistently pre-defined level structures.
Don't kid yourself. The wall is pointless. If anything, it helps marines take nano easier without arcs. Don't forget how poorly implemented it was as well... ie. you can walk whips and crags through the wall.
Walking whips and crags through the wall is obviously a glitch that needs to be fixed.
It helps aliens take nano back easier as well. With the wall up they can easily swarm the side without the phasegate and take it, then they can either bile over the wall, or build up some whips along the wall and then hit the button to drop it.
Besides even if it isn't "perfect" it's something new and refreshing that actually adds some fun to the gameplay.
Aren't you missing the point that marines control the wall? When they take nano, you would lower the wall and just hold it like normal...
Both teams can hit the button to raise/lower the wall when the timer is up.