To your questions:
1) Personally I think the game is actually quite marine sided
Do you have any stats for that?
I mean if I look at the stats for the inappropriate servers:
The balance is better than 45%/55% even if I look over individual days, weeks, month.
Are you suggesting the servers you play on are worse than that?
I'm sorry, but i don't fully understand what you're asking here.
It is my observation on pubs filled with expirienced (not necessarily competitive) players.
The reason is that aliens require team play (/communication) in order to overcome marines of equal skill, because 1 skulk can not kill 1 marines (if it is not ambushing).
Marines on the other hand, don't really need that kind of team play (/communication) on pub servers. You just need to watch your map and stand in the correct position.
This is most notably on tram, where it is super easy to lane block.
Of course, that changes drastically if the aliens have a field commander who talks a lot and knows what he's doing (Wob is a prime example)
Do you stats for that?
I mean I think stats tells the exact opposite; overall the games are very even.
My assumption here is of cause that all games started with teams that were created base on (some approximation) of even hive score.
I have no recollection of games that were not shuffled based on hive score unless they already were nearly even.
This has nothing to do with Elo. Those who carry, carry and win for both sides. You would have to compare the game length and the amount of surrenders.
So at a roughly 50/50 balance, the chance of one team or the other winning just 10 games in a row is 0.0009
so you're telling me in a game with hundreds of rounds played per day, that at some point, a single team won 13 times in a row?
How is this surprising?
Does this have to be a 'balance' thing? Cant it just be a 'probabilities' thing?
I'm sorry, but i don't fully understand what you're asking here.
If someone claims that the game is X sided then I expect it to mean X wins more than Y.
If X wins more than Y, then I expect someone can show me some numbers showing that.
Otherwise is how you remember/perceive winnings and loses. And that
is shown in lots of studies to be very incorrect compared to reality. Even in this thread you can
find
This has nothing to do with Elo. Those who carry, carry and win for both sides.
You lost me here.
I said (indirectly); ns2 have a system that woks very well to make even games.
You say; it does not work
I say; what backs up you claim and why do you think that?
You say; It has nothing to with that system.
Does this have to be a 'balance' thing? Cant it just be a 'probabilities' thing?
I agree, this might just be a fluke, but then I would have expected that the balance over that day to reflect that.
But it seems there were a reverse fluke the other way to even it out.
I'm sorry, but i don't fully understand what you're asking here.
If someone claims that the game is X sided then I expect it to mean X wins more than Y.
If X wins more than Y, then I expect someone can show me some numbers showing that.
Otherwise is how you remember/perceive winnings and loses. And that
is shown in lots of studies to be very incorrect compared to reality. Even in this thread you can
find
This has nothing to do with Elo. Those who carry, carry and win for both sides.
You lost me here.
I said (indirectly); ns2 have a system that woks very well to make even games.
You say; it does not work
I say; what backs up you claim and why do you think that?
You say; It has nothing to with that system.
We're talking about two different things here. The elo shuffle has nothing to do with the games balance, but with how interesting the matches are. The system creates unbalanced matches on either side. That is why you would have to compare match length, the amount of surrenders or the amount of desperate alien base rushes with and without elo shuffle
Uwe, please make it so that you have to hack your own client exe or have a client mod installed, in order to see or join >24 player servers. I beg you.
I second that. Requiring a person to mod their own client to join those servers would help keep new players from experiencing the unbelievably bad gameplay those servers provide.
It would also help funnel more players into the lower pop servers, which perform way better and offer up far more balanced games.
well the balance on a 42 player server iis something like 54% in favor of marines. One of the biggest issues that upsets the balance of recent games is veteran players with new accounts joining servers who throw the whole team balance thing out the window.
It just sad to see people advocating against high population servers.
Bad experience? Imbalanced? Not the way it was meant to be played? Not fun? It's completely the opposite. If I was the server op of these servers I would just shut it down and let everyone else suck their own thumb. High pop servers is one of the best things that has ever happened to this game/community.
Ok. So lets try to estimate it;
We have some servers that shows better balance than 45%/55%.
Granted, they are used it way they were not designed for.
Would it not be fair to assume, that servers used in a way they were designed for,
would have better balance?
The elo shuffle has nothing to do with the games balance, but with how interesting the matches are. The system creates unbalanced matches on either side.
Wut? I believe the elo shuffle has everything to do with how balanced games are, but not necessarily how interesting they are.
Or do I misunderstand you?
That is why you would have to compare match length, the amount of surrenders or the amount of desperate alien base rushes with and without elo shuffle
I agree, that to determine how well the shuffle does, we would need to turn it off completely (and hide the team scores) on some servers.
Lets assume a given outcome X.
What would that tell about why the game design some times breaks (perhaps it could still be a fluke)?
Does it tell anything about why the game design breaks when,
1) we expanding the numbers of player?
2) we play on larger/smaller maps?
It just sad to see people advocating against server or large servers.
Bad experience? Imbalanced? Not the way it was meant to be played? Not fun? It's completely the opposite. If I was the server op I would just shut it down and let everyone else suck their own thumb. server is one of the best things that has ever happened to this game/community.
It is not about fun, and not even balance, but about how new players without ns2 optimized hard- and software settings perceive their first NS2 expirience.
It's totally fine that you like it, but it is not NS2 and new players should not be lured to servers, who do not run NS2, claiming they do!
The game does not officially support >24 slot servers, yet UWE does not only tolerate it, but openly supports it, and that is because UWE is blackmailed (again) to not do anything against it, because those players threaten to leave the game.
Have your large servers, I don't care, but stop selling it as rookie friendly ns2 servers. It is a noob trap.
Ok. So lets try to estimate it;
We have some servers that shows better balance than 45%/55%.
Granted, they are used it way they were not designed for.
Would it not be fair to assume, that servers used in a way they were designed for,
would have better balance?
No, because there is no clear definition of what the game was designed for.
The span from 12 to 24 is too high to have a definite balance.
Both sides have advantages and disadvantages in terms of player scaling.
Examples:
Marines gain an advantage through numbers, because life forms are more likely to get killed by multiple marines.
On the other hand, you can not drop ammo and med packs as you should be able to. The effect is that you die more often on either side.
The Aliens on the other hand gain an advantage because of the lowered FPS that comes with higher slot count.
Also, Hives and crags effectively regenerate more hp.
You can not say that the games balances is generally shifting into ones favor through slot count. However, the game becomes more frustrating and dull the more players you have on your sever.
Another thing is, that different servers have differently skilled regulars
The elo shuffle has nothing to do with the games balance, but with how interesting the matches are. The system creates unbalanced matches on either side.
Wut? I believe the elo shuffle has everything to do with how balanced games are, but not necessarily how interesting they are.
Or do I misunderstand you?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2016
Hmm, so let's see here... Larger servers have much higher hitreg and performance issues right? So from what I've seen on those servers, marines tend to grab their nades and start explosions all over the place in order to randomly kill stuff to compensate for the lack of hitreg...
Better hitreg favours marines in general on normal servers... But nadespam also favours marines if you get enough marines together. More marines means more spam, unless aliens get past this spam and manage the to counter it with bilebomb spam to melt marine bases. So basically it's midgame (marines) vs endgame (aliens), which determines the outcome of a round.
If aliens manage to get past midgame they win, if they cannot marines win. Lke balanced games around skill and aiming but with different gameplay factors... That's probably why we see the similar win/loss ratios...
There is the main difference between high (26+) and normal playercounts (max24 -> 22 IMHO), you can't compare the two different playercounts based of the same "skill system". Also because individual skill factor has less impact, the larger the playercount. yet it is kinda weird how the win/loss ratio is similar, but win/loss ratio isn't the only factor to a balanced (fun) game Heck super balanced games can be boring as hell even, lacking any variety with best build/way to play without any deviation.
We see that with the 1min concedes after an RT is lost and I guess on large player count server with nadespam vs bilebomb spam
well the balance on a 42 player server iis something like 54% in favor of marines. One of the biggest issues that upsets the balance of recent games is veteran players with new accounts joining servers who throw the whole team balance thing out the window.
I dont follow your reasoning here;
So some veteran joins "and upsets the balance", would that not mean the overall balance would swing to one side?
Or do the veterans switch side ever so often, that the balance stays the same,
but the outcome for the single game is not fair?
I agree that veterans could have joined aliens and made them win 13 times, but
1) I highly doubt that 1 veteran on 21 vs 21 makes that big a difference.
2) is seems nice of them to join the larger server instead of completely dominating smaller ones.
There is the main difference between high (26+) and normal playercounts (max24 -> 22 IMHO), you can't compare the two different playercounts based of the same "skill system". yet it is kinda weird how the win/loss ratio is similar,
So the questions I ask is can you explain the wierdness?
What makes it work, even not designed for?
but win/loss ratio isn't the only factor to a balanced (fun) game Heck super balanced games can be boring as hell even, lacking any variety with best build/way to play without any deviation.
I agree that balanced is not the same as a fun or interesting game.
well the balance on a 42 player server iis something like 54% in favor of marines. One of the biggest issues that upsets the balance of recent games is veteran players with new accounts joining servers who throw the whole team balance thing out the window.
I dont follow your reasoning here;
So some veteran joins "and upsets the balance", would that not mean the overall balance would swing to one side?
Or do the veterans switch side ever so often, that the balance stays the same,
but the outcome for the single game is not fair?
I agree that veterans could have joined aliens and made them win 13 times, but
1) I highly doubt that 1 veteran on 21 vs 21 makes that big a difference.
2) is seems nice of them to join the larger server instead of completely dominating smaller ones.
yea if a veteran joins a team with only 1000 hive rating when his actual rating should be something like 3000 then he will upset the balance
that particular server has a good almost 50 50 balance between alien and marine wins overall, i think my longest lose streak was 13 and my longest win streak was 14 but overall my win loss stays roughly equal and i have 1-1 win loss ratio playing mostly on that server.
There is the main difference between high (26+) and normal playercounts (max24 -> 22 IMHO), you can't compare the two different playercounts based of the same "skill system". yet it is kinda weird how the win/loss ratio is similar,
So the questions I ask is can you explain the wierdness?
What makes it work, even not designed for?
My guess is it works because the basic system is the same only with different gameplay elements.
Early game Marines are slightly more powerful with their ranged weaponry vs unupgraded aliens (skulkrush excluded)
Midgame starts out with Marines still having a bit more of an edge, which gradually equalizes during midgame
Endgame is where the aliens start to snowball
In the case of normal gameplay this is based around individual skill like aiming (marines) and tracking (aliens) alongside map awareness
Aiming/tracking is more important here, because individual playerskill has a bigger impact
Map awareness is dependent on response time. The less players, the more players need to be aware of what's going on. Responsetime is dependend on reaction time
In the case of "large" gameplay this is based around getting as many of your team into areas and hope one comes out on top
Like I mentioned, AOE weapons have much more chance of doing damage than aiming and relying on shoddy hitreg. Marines also have more access to a wide variety of AOE, while Gorges are in effect less hardy early/midgame, and with more gorges also comes less marine killing ability (unless you factor in healing others...)
Map awareness is not really needed, response time on both teams tends to be very short. Because the maps are small enough to have people everywhere.
TBH, it kinda shows how balanced the core of NS2 actually is win/loss ratio. If it can scale by replacing certain gameplay factors... One side note, I've also played other games like Forgotten Hope, which were totally unbalanced on some maps for historically accurate representation of those WW2 battles. But those rounds/maps were still very fun. And if some skillful people were on the nerfed team, they could still win against all odds. What I'm trying to say here is that 50/50 balanced games aren't needed for fun. Just look at Last Stand, marines are powerful but tend to lose by the end of the timer. It's just that NS2 has that "class/weapon" investment that also pushes this game into having to be close to 50/50 balanced...
So, the NS2 games are similar in nature where [Marine favour] Early-Mid-End [Aliens favour] is concerned, we're only swapping out the things above. The rules of engagement change a lot, but the basis on what NS2 is balanced remains kinda similar. We can sum it up in "skill based game" vs "newbie mode", of course bigger player counts are more popular for newer/casual players, there is less pressure on individuals. But it doesn't change the fact that the engine is not working as intended and they also have to resort to abusing hitreg by spamming grenades/bile.
However, I'll never judge people if that is how they seem to have fun. But it's not NS2 IMHO, it looks more like some crazy zergmode I mean it changes the game in such a way that is might as well be another game mode like the other gameplay mods
@Nordic Can't you provide us with balance stats of NS2 servers? I think you have access to sponitor right?
I don't have access to that. I have a data dump from the hive website.
From a large dataset I know of, global win rates for non rookie only servers are 54.7% alien wins and 45.7% marine. I can not tell you more than that. Wooza's wonitor stats show his server does very well with alien and marine win rate.
Also, for the point of this thread. Faction balance does not equal team balance.
Now I am tempted to write some long post about hive, but I really can't be bothered this time. I honestly do not have the time, and my patience for these kinds of threads has gone down with each thread.
TBH, it kinda shows how balanced the core of NS2 actually is win/loss ratio. If it can scale by replacing certain gameplay factors...
What I'm trying to say here is that 50/50 balanced games aren't needed for fun.
The rules of engagement change a lot, but the basis on what NS2 is balanced remains kinda similar.
But it doesn't change the fact that the engine is not working as intended and they also have to resort to abusing hitreg by spamming grenades/bile.
So your estimation of how large servers team balance changes depends on how many ppl on a given team spams granades/bile?
Assuming the ppl that evening play on the same hours other days, you would expect
1) this would happen nearly every night
2) the aliens win because it is easier to bile than use granades?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
And their survivability goes a lot higher during end game, with cover from their bigger buddies coming along. And biling a base tends to clear it rather quickly the more Gorges there are. Grenades eventually lose their lifeform killing power the more Onos/Fades/Lerks are out
From a large dataset I know of, global win rates for non rookie only servers are 54.7% alien wins and 45.7% marine.
I can not tell you more than that. Wooza's wonitor stats show his server does very well with alien and marine win rate.
I agree that every stat I have seen shows overall that faction balance is good.
That was not really the reason for starting this thread.
It seems that I observed X, and I ask how often does X happen.
I think I can see 4 valid answers to this question/thread
1) "I dont know as I have no stats for that, and I dont care."
2) "I dont know, but I will take notes the next month and come back to you"
3) "I have stats, let me look it up"
4) "hmm, yes that is a strange observation given other stats/observations, I want to know too"
Also, for the point of this thread. Faction balance does not equal team balance.
I agree, and given enough matches they estimate the faction balance.
I dont get what you try to say with that point?
That team balance changes over daytime, and ends up with a nice overall balance?
And their survivability goes a lot higher during end game, with cover from their bigger buddies coming along. And biling a base tends to clear it rather quickly the more Gorges there are. Grenades eventually lose their lifeform killing power the more Onos/Fades/Lerks are out
This is, as I understand you always true, so you would expect same outcome at any other time? Which is not the case.
Unless you also believe ppl were smarter/dummer that evening, but that I dont see an indication of that in wonton (hive skill at least)
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2016
Just looking at "stats" or "win/loss" ratios is way too narrow minded to look at game balance or outcomes. All these stats measure are raw numbers usually without any context or a very vague context...
A team full of big baddies (aliens) can still lose to a marine team if they simply don't know how to deal with the marine turtle, as a result flashing their lifeforms. Which momentarily weakens their front line. In some case Marines could take advantage of this by pushing on a side where there are less aliens.
Here's the thing:
The more players, the harder it is to break a marine turtle if neither team knows what they're doing. The same goes for an Alien turtle, although eggs are WAY more vulnerable than IP's or Powernodes...
But if you get people who know what they're doing, they can break those turtles by targeting the things that need to go to end the game. Although that gets harder to do if there are more players.
That random factor only goes up with more players, as a result making the "stats tracking" even more unreliable than it already is...
So no, I don't look at "stats systems" and frankly I am wary of "skill measuring" in this game, simply because there are countless factors to consider. It is fun to see what weapons are used or win/loss ratios, but those are just additional information sources. Not the be all end all sources. Even in other more simple games, I sometimes find people with "high elo" or whatever you want to call it, who really suck with no aiming skills or situational awareness whatsoever...
That "smarter/dummer" but you mentioned is actually quite interesting. You cannot measure that accurately in any way, shape or form. Sometimes players get a lapse in concentration, just do stuff for the heck of it or get overconfident and flash their equipment/lifeform. The thing is, that bit of "oops" won't be seen in the stats system you're so fond of
@Wake
Heheheh that burrowing Onos totally needs to be a thing, Nydus Worm much
No, because there is no clear definition of what the game was designed for.
The span from 12 to 24 is too high to have a definite balance.
I dont follow you here.
Do you disagree with the following:
I show 45%/55% stats to a statistician, knowing nothing about ns2,
and tell them that is stats from a server that had more players than
what the game was designed/game tested/tweaked for.
Also telling that the game was designed/game tested/tweaked to have very balanced factions.
Would that statistician not estimate that servers without that many player
would have at least as good a balance?
The elo shuffle has nothing to do with the games balance, but with how interesting the matches are. The system creates unbalanced matches on either side.
Wut? I believe the elo shuffle has everything to do with how balanced games are, but not necessarily how interesting they are.
Or do I misunderstand you?
Ahh, I did not make that distinction. (I would probably have called it faction balance).
Slightly off topic: Can we agree on the following:
In all (board-/pc-/)games that are not pure luck, will require some skill/experience match up mechanism for a fair match?
Nearly any system is better than nothing?
Anyhow back to what this came from (I have replaced game with match)
Do you stats for that?
I mean I think stats tells the exact opposite; overall the matches are very even.
My assumption here is of cause that all matches started with teams that were created base on (some approximation) of even hive score.
I have no recollection of matches that were not shuffled based on hive score unless they already were nearly even.
Comments
It is my observation on pubs filled with expirienced (not necessarily competitive) players.
The reason is that aliens require team play (/communication) in order to overcome marines of equal skill, because 1 skulk can not kill 1 marines (if it is not ambushing).
Marines on the other hand, don't really need that kind of team play (/communication) on pub servers. You just need to watch your map and stand in the correct position.
This is most notably on tram, where it is super easy to lane block.
Of course, that changes drastically if the aliens have a field commander who talks a lot and knows what he's doing (Wob is a prime example)
This has nothing to do with Elo. Those who carry, carry and win for both sides. You would have to compare the game length and the amount of surrenders.
no naming and shaming plzkthx
so you're telling me in a game with hundreds of rounds played per day, that at some point, a single team won 13 times in a row?
How is this surprising?
Does this have to be a 'balance' thing? Cant it just be a 'probabilities' thing?
If someone claims that the game is X sided then I expect it to mean X wins more than Y.
If X wins more than Y, then I expect someone can show me some numbers showing that.
Otherwise is how you remember/perceive winnings and loses. And that
is shown in lots of studies to be very incorrect compared to reality. Even in this thread you can
find
You lost me here.
I said (indirectly); ns2 have a system that woks very well to make even games.
You say; it does not work
I say; what backs up you claim and why do you think that?
You say; It has nothing to with that system.
But it seems there were a reverse fluke the other way to even it out.
I can not, because n2stats doesn't exist anymore.
We're talking about two different things here. The elo shuffle has nothing to do with the games balance, but with how interesting the matches are. The system creates unbalanced matches on either side. That is why you would have to compare match length, the amount of surrenders or the amount of desperate alien base rushes with and without elo shuffle
well the balance on a 42 player server iis something like 54% in favor of marines. One of the biggest issues that upsets the balance of recent games is veteran players with new accounts joining servers who throw the whole team balance thing out the window.
Bad experience? Imbalanced? Not the way it was meant to be played? Not fun? It's completely the opposite. If I was the server op of these servers I would just shut it down and let everyone else suck their own thumb. High pop servers is one of the best things that has ever happened to this game/community.
Ok. So lets try to estimate it;
We have some servers that shows better balance than 45%/55%.
Granted, they are used it way they were not designed for.
Would it not be fair to assume, that servers used in a way they were designed for,
would have better balance?
Wut? I believe the elo shuffle has everything to do with how balanced games are, but not necessarily how interesting they are.
Or do I misunderstand you?
I agree, that to determine how well the shuffle does, we would need to turn it off completely (and hide the team scores) on some servers.
Lets assume a given outcome X.
What would that tell about why the game design some times breaks (perhaps it could still be a fluke)?
Does it tell anything about why the game design breaks when,
1) we expanding the numbers of player?
2) we play on larger/smaller maps?
It is not about fun, and not even balance, but about how new players without ns2 optimized hard- and software settings perceive their first NS2 expirience.
It's totally fine that you like it, but it is not NS2 and new players should not be lured to servers, who do not run NS2, claiming they do!
The game does not officially support >24 slot servers, yet UWE does not only tolerate it, but openly supports it, and that is because UWE is blackmailed (again) to not do anything against it, because those players threaten to leave the game.
Have your large servers, I don't care, but stop selling it as rookie friendly ns2 servers. It is a noob trap.
No, because there is no clear definition of what the game was designed for.
The span from 12 to 24 is too high to have a definite balance.
Both sides have advantages and disadvantages in terms of player scaling.
Examples:
Marines gain an advantage through numbers, because life forms are more likely to get killed by multiple marines.
On the other hand, you can not drop ammo and med packs as you should be able to. The effect is that you die more often on either side.
The Aliens on the other hand gain an advantage because of the lowered FPS that comes with higher slot count.
Also, Hives and crags effectively regenerate more hp.
You can not say that the games balances is generally shifting into ones favor through slot count. However, the game becomes more frustrating and dull the more players you have on your sever.
Another thing is, that different servers have differently skilled regulars
Game = NS2
Match = round 6664 on Server XYZ
Better hitreg favours marines in general on normal servers... But nadespam also favours marines if you get enough marines together. More marines means more spam, unless aliens get past this spam and manage the to counter it with bilebomb spam to melt marine bases. So basically it's midgame (marines) vs endgame (aliens), which determines the outcome of a round.
If aliens manage to get past midgame they win, if they cannot marines win. Lke balanced games around skill and aiming but with different gameplay factors... That's probably why we see the similar win/loss ratios...
There is the main difference between high (26+) and normal playercounts (max24 -> 22 IMHO), you can't compare the two different playercounts based of the same "skill system". Also because individual skill factor has less impact, the larger the playercount. yet it is kinda weird how the win/loss ratio is similar, but win/loss ratio isn't the only factor to a balanced (fun) game
We see that with the 1min concedes after an RT is lost and I guess on large player count server with nadespam vs bilebomb spam
I dont follow your reasoning here;
So some veteran joins "and upsets the balance", would that not mean the overall balance would swing to one side?
Or do the veterans switch side ever so often, that the balance stays the same,
but the outcome for the single game is not fair?
I agree that veterans could have joined aliens and made them win 13 times, but
1) I highly doubt that 1 veteran on 21 vs 21 makes that big a difference.
2) is seems nice of them to join the larger server instead of completely dominating smaller ones.
So the questions I ask is can you explain the wierdness?
What makes it work, even not designed for?
I agree that balanced is not the same as a fun or interesting game.
yea if a veteran joins a team with only 1000 hive rating when his actual rating should be something like 3000 then he will upset the balance
that particular server has a good almost 50 50 balance between alien and marine wins overall, i think my longest lose streak was 13 and my longest win streak was 14 but overall my win loss stays roughly equal and i have 1-1 win loss ratio playing mostly on that server.
My guess is it works because the basic system is the same only with different gameplay elements.
In the case of normal gameplay this is based around individual skill like aiming (marines) and tracking (aliens) alongside map awareness
In the case of "large" gameplay this is based around getting as many of your team into areas and hope one comes out on top
TBH, it kinda shows how balanced the core of NS2 actually is win/loss ratio. If it can scale by replacing certain gameplay factors... One side note, I've also played other games like Forgotten Hope, which were totally unbalanced on some maps for historically accurate representation of those WW2 battles. But those rounds/maps were still very fun. And if some skillful people were on the nerfed team, they could still win against all odds. What I'm trying to say here is that 50/50 balanced games aren't needed for fun. Just look at Last Stand, marines are powerful but tend to lose by the end of the timer. It's just that NS2 has that "class/weapon" investment that also pushes this game into having to be close to 50/50 balanced...
So, the NS2 games are similar in nature where [Marine favour] Early-Mid-End [Aliens favour] is concerned, we're only swapping out the things above. The rules of engagement change a lot, but the basis on what NS2 is balanced remains kinda similar. We can sum it up in "skill based game" vs "newbie mode", of course bigger player counts are more popular for newer/casual players, there is less pressure on individuals. But it doesn't change the fact that the engine is not working as intended and they also have to resort to abusing hitreg by spamming grenades/bile.
However, I'll never judge people if that is how they seem to have fun. But it's not NS2 IMHO, it looks more like some crazy zergmode
therefore 1 team will always end up with more rookies.
Simple fix: rookies cannot gain elo,
but making hive time equally important as hive score in the equation of shuffling is the end goal.
Why is hive 2.0 not being actively worked on? Imo that should be the absolute biggest priority...
What in the world makes you think it is not?
https://trello.com/c/SBkWPrIc/66-hive-v2-3
Cuz one of you guys said just a couple weeks ago or so that it wasn't! don't remember who or where but I'm positive I read that.
From a large dataset I know of, global win rates for non rookie only servers are 54.7% alien wins and 45.7% marine. I can not tell you more than that. Wooza's wonitor stats show his server does very well with alien and marine win rate.
Also, for the point of this thread. Faction balance does not equal team balance.
Now I am tempted to write some long post about hive, but I really can't be bothered this time. I honestly do not have the time, and my patience for these kinds of threads has gone down with each thread.
I agree with that.
So your estimation of how large servers team balance changes depends on how many ppl on a given team spams granades/bile?
Assuming the ppl that evening play on the same hours other days, you would expect
1) this would happen nearly every night
2) the aliens win because it is easier to bile than use granades?
I agree that every stat I have seen shows overall that faction balance is good.
That was not really the reason for starting this thread.
It seems that I observed X, and I ask how often does X happen.
I think I can see 4 valid answers to this question/thread
1) "I dont know as I have no stats for that, and I dont care."
2) "I dont know, but I will take notes the next month and come back to you"
3) "I have stats, let me look it up"
4) "hmm, yes that is a strange observation given other stats/observations, I want to know too"
I agree, and given enough matches they estimate the faction balance.
I dont get what you try to say with that point?
That team balance changes over daytime, and ends up with a nice overall balance?
This is, as I understand you always true, so you would expect same outcome at any other time? Which is not the case.
Unless you also believe ppl were smarter/dummer that evening, but that I dont see an indication of that in wonton (hive skill at least)
Were they the ...
A team full of big baddies (aliens) can still lose to a marine team if they simply don't know how to deal with the marine turtle, as a result flashing their lifeforms. Which momentarily weakens their front line. In some case Marines could take advantage of this by pushing on a side where there are less aliens.
Here's the thing:
The more players, the harder it is to break a marine turtle if neither team knows what they're doing. The same goes for an Alien turtle, although eggs are WAY more vulnerable than IP's or Powernodes...
But if you get people who know what they're doing, they can break those turtles by targeting the things that need to go to end the game. Although that gets harder to do if there are more players.
That random factor only goes up with more players, as a result making the "stats tracking" even more unreliable than it already is...
So no, I don't look at "stats systems" and frankly I am wary of "skill measuring" in this game, simply because there are countless factors to consider. It is fun to see what weapons are used or win/loss ratios, but those are just additional information sources. Not the be all end all sources. Even in other more simple games, I sometimes find people with "high elo" or whatever you want to call it, who really suck with no aiming skills or situational awareness whatsoever...
That "smarter/dummer" but you mentioned is actually quite interesting. You cannot measure that accurately in any way, shape or form. Sometimes players get a lapse in concentration, just do stuff for the heck of it or get overconfident and flash their equipment/lifeform. The thing is, that bit of "oops" won't be seen in the stats system you're so fond of
@Wake
Heheheh that burrowing Onos totally needs to be a thing, Nydus Worm much
Do you disagree with the following:
I show 45%/55% stats to a statistician, knowing nothing about ns2,
and tell them that is stats from a server that had more players than
what the game was designed/game tested/tweaked for.
Also telling that the game was designed/game tested/tweaked to have very balanced factions.
Would that statistician not estimate that servers without that many player
would have at least as good a balance?
Ahh, I did not make that distinction. (I would probably have called it faction balance).
Slightly off topic: Can we agree on the following:
In all (board-/pc-/)games that are not pure luck, will require some skill/experience match up mechanism for a fair match?
Nearly any system is better than nothing?
Anyhow back to what this came from (I have replaced game with match)
Do you stats for that?
I mean I think stats tells the exact opposite; overall the matches are very even.
My assumption here is of cause that all matches started with teams that were created base on (some approximation) of even hive score.
I have no recollection of matches that were not shuffled based on hive score unless they already were nearly even.
So good. I'm the concede one.