13 consecutive marine loses
pebl
Join Date: 2016-02-09 Member: 212816Members
Join Date: 2016-02-09 Member: 212816Members
http://apheriox.com/wonitor/configurator.html#x=time&xTimeFormat=Y-m-d H:i&y=team1Wins&s=length&plotType=bar&serverId_is=po6yMII6Le&time_gt=2016-04-06&time_lt=2016-04-08
The above link shows that marine won a game at 19:02 and one again at 00:11.
In that interval the aliens won
19:25 19:39
20:03 20:28
21:10 21:28 21:55
22:12 22:34 22:50
23:09 23:33 23:53
So 13 consecutive loses for marines.
I played only the last couple of games, so I cannot tell how even the games actually was, but still, it seems a lot in a row.
Especially when I consider that 19 to 00 is the primetime for casual and new players and
have the assumption that they prefer marines over aliens, which would mean they are getting stomped a lot.
The above link shows that marine won a game at 19:02 and one again at 00:11.
In that interval the aliens won
19:25 19:39
20:03 20:28
21:10 21:28 21:55
22:12 22:34 22:50
23:09 23:33 23:53
So 13 consecutive loses for marines.
I played only the last couple of games, so I cannot tell how even the games actually was, but still, it seems a lot in a row.
Especially when I consider that 19 to 00 is the primetime for casual and new players and
have the assumption that they prefer marines over aliens, which would mean they are getting stomped a lot.
Comments
Edit: My reasoning: It is not rookie friendly. Most rookie pcs can't handle it. The "engagements" are huge chaotic clusterfucks where marines can't hit shit with low fps. Not even mentioning that you can not med marines as much as you actually should be able to. It does not scale.
Rookies get a shitty impression of the game.
I'm not saying ban >24 player servers, but lift the hurdle for these noob trap servers.
I second that. Requiring a person to mod their own client to join those servers would help keep new players from experiencing the unbelievably bad gameplay those servers provide.
It would also help funnel more players into the lower pop servers, which perform way better and offer up far more balanced games.
Which server was that on? How many slots does it have?
When I click "back" at the left, it takes me to Wooza's. Does this mean you are referring to Wooza's server?
Because you should know that Wooza's is not representative of Natural Selection 2 gameplay in the slightest. I recommend joining 16 - 20 player server for an optimal ns2 experience.
http://apheriox.com/wonitor/configurator.html#x=winner&y=count&plotType=pie&time_ge=2016-04-06&time_le=2016-04-07
Over the cause of the whole day the balance is 52.5%/47.5% to the marine's advantage.
Have you stats backing you up for claiming that other servers have better balance?
I cri evrytiem
There should be a message or bar on the screen before you join showing or stating how balanced the teams are.
I don't see very many people playing in "optimal experience" servers.
That is actually my point. It scares off potential new players who could easily be better players right from the start. They lose interest because they play with default client settings on a >24 slot server.
Yeah, who doesn't want to get rid of a big amount of the community? Whether you like or not, those servers now represent a notable part of the remaining community. It'd be wise not to shut them down, just for the sake of your own experience.
Regarding performances, I used to hate those larger servers a couple of months ago. Now they're far from being this bad and I know a few <24 slot servers that get poorer performances.
Gameplay-wise, although different, it is still enjoyable. People wouldn't be joining if this statement wasn't true.
New players join full servers, if you want to prevent them from playing on large servers, just make sure other smaller servers are full as well.
There are always some people who come up right away to criticize larger servers, even in this thread but when people throw them counter-arguments, they're simply ignoring them.
I get my best game experience on 16/18 slot servers and yet, I can still have fun on large servers as long as they have correct performances and balance. This game isn't more balanced in 24 slot servers than on >24 slot servers. These statistics are here to prove this point. It just plays in a different way. Also, there's already a message popping up on the screen of the rookie when he joins any modified servers.
Feels like you posting from year 2013. Client performance has been increased a lot and over the time, new and better hardware came out. NS2Large is running fine with mid ranged computer that are a year old or two.
Well, yes, and then they come to the forums and complain about balance.
Even though client performance has increased significantly some maps and late game, your fps still can collapse on larger servers and it tends to be worse with your servers simply due to player count.
Where i think the problems would occur is with new players who simply play on your servers who might either not have the great computers and think the game is very meh performance wise. As well as players who think huge games is the only/best way to play ns2 and become use to playing on it only right off the bat. Then they go on much smaller servers and struggle immensely as game play is significantly different on smaller servers making them potentially rage and only want to play on yours.
I personally don't mind playing on Woozas or w/e other server, but playing on yours the game play in general is significantly different as to tech, team play, commanding and so on and i think that's where the biggest problem occurs. 1 or maybe 2 servers if another is populated, being so different as to how you play ns2 isn't what you want to teach new players right from the beginning and i think this is where Bicsum is coming from.
In the end the game is balanced for much smaller games 8v8 9v9 and new players would get thrown really off playing between the 2 types. I'm completely against what Bicsum proposed by banning it but it should be something you try after you lose rookie status imo.
We've had this argument and this thread enough times in the past already, and the problem with it is that it devolves into "naming and shaming" which we don't allow here.
While it is remaining somewhat civil still, please refrain from calling out or complaining about certain servers on these forums, or I will be locking the thread.
Firstly, UWE need to step up, grow a pair, and say "x number of players (i.e. 12-18) is the recommended amount for balance on servers. Anything that doesn't fall within this threshold will NOT be whitelisted", instead of all this wimpy "oh but there's no mods that interfere too much with the balance so we'll let it slide... don't want to upset anyone". Take charge of your game, guys - get us to play it how YOU envisioned we play it.
Secondly, set a filter in the server browser where non-whitelisted servers are hidden by default.
Ask yourself, why do games like League of Legends, Dota, Titanfall not support >10 slot servers? Because it just simply does not work with its gameplay and performance, but I guarantee you, that if people could set up dedicated Lol/Dota servers and the sever admins could manipulate their binaries to increase slot count, they would definitely do it, and players would definitely join it, if they saw it in their server browser.
NS2 is more comparable with a MOBA than other shooters (e.g. Battlefield). This game is about lane blocking, timed pushing, sneaking, ambushing, gaining an economic advantage over your enemy. All of this is meaningless on high slot servers.
>24 slot servers run a broken modification of the game. It does not represent NS2 and it gives new players a false impression of the game.
Flayra had the design goal to make ns2 scalable on higher slot counts, but it failed! Why can you not see this, reflect and revert the decisions that were made?
UWE should have intervened right from the start, when the possibility of manipulating binaries was first discovered, but at that time they were busy developing the game and did not think through its consequences. Once the first high slot servers established, UWE tolerated it, thinking it wouldn't hurt anybody, and I guess they did not want to screw anybody over by shutting down high slot communities, thinking the game would lose players because of this, but that is not true.
People did not buy ns2, because they exclusively want to play on high slot servers. If you were to ban it right now, the >24 slot community would switch to the second next possible slot count. Most would NOT quit the game completely. Those who do (out of protest) might return at some point.
This liberal approach is hurting the community as a whole, because new players just don't know better and take a broken modification as a representation of ns2! The warning popup is meaningless and you know it!
>24 slot servers MUST clearly be distinguished from vanilla ns2. It is more gameplay changing than comp mod will ever be! New players are supposed to play vanilla ns2 when they first start the game, and not a broken modification of the game.
Either >24 slot servers need to fix its gameplay as a mod (e.g. having 2vs2 teams or 1vs1vs1vs1 while increasing map size), or it must not be called ns2!
This is not a debate about fun, and I also don't hold a grudge against anyone who posted in this thread. I even think that the one, who can not be named, is decent and helpful guy, but this topic, which is a broken record, is a fundamental problem that has always been holding this game back!
The reason why I pushed this thread into this direction is that I find it absolutely infuriating that a (probably) new player opens a thread about balance on a server, that does not even run ns2, thinking it does! I will not have it!
Let me start with something else;
I have been playing ns2 for several years. Steam says approx 300 hours, so I not a new player.
I am also a casual player, which means I play for fun and to relax.
Let me emphasize the relaxing part; I dont want to play the game you, Biscum, and others are agitating for.
That is simply not relaxing games for me. I want to go having a piss, grab a beer and come back, without
the team lost without me. I want to be able to re/dis-connect because my kid cries, without anybody noticing I did.
Looking how often the large servers are full, and how long it takes take get in. Without any real stats except
http://steamcharts.com/app/4920 and wontons (that sadly does not show unique players) I will speculate the following:
a) At least 40% of the players priorities/pick servers as I do.
b) They all know exactly what they want.
c) A 3rd larger server will also be crowded.
So please dont tell me how I should play, that I am a noob, that I am trollish for meta *snip*
how I should be forces to play something, because you believe it will enlighten me.
I recognize that you are very passionate about a game and love it. It is also obvious that too few play this game.
But attacking those that does not seems a sensible, even thought they are not playing exactly the way you are.
(I do play the game you want me to play, when I get tired of waiting for a slot in the large servers.)
Why dont you agitate for better clans structures/support and easier clan tournaments?
Remove all icons expect the clan icon, which is then shows every where, so ppl can go; wooh, I want to be just as good and join?
I see many ways that would lure ppl to play your game.. some times, but not as a default.
So to the actual question;
I wanted ppl to notice that even though
1) the overall balance is very very even
2) the hive skill is used to make the matches even
there are seems to be short comings to that.
That should make you go hmm,
Is it the hive skill that are missing something? In that case what?
Is there a mental difference between those that play at evenings/night and at other times?
Is there a hive skill difference between this that play at evenings/night and at other times?
Does this also hold true for the favorite server you play on?
How do I get stats for anything based on the hour of the day?
If you answer any above be ready to answer my follow up question;
What stats/measurements indicates that?
Good Gameplay does usually require good balance.
But Good Balance doesn't make Good Gameplay.
NS2 has traditionally been balanced for 6v6. Those days have faded some with the concessions for higher-slot servers (the fact that extra IPs might spawn indicates that UWE does still care about them to some degree).
Lately (being loosely used here), NS2 has been skewing its game-balance toward 8s IMO (maybe I'm crazy). If this is true, encouraging (new) players to play this version of the game will give them the "purest" representation of NS2. What UWE needs to decide/research is whether new players do in fact leave after playing in certain slotsize servers.
If so, since UWE is mainly focused on new players, making a few hoops to jump through to get there isn't a bad thing. It might even be worth it to make it difficult to play on anything but whatever the 'official' playercount servers are, just so you're sure that people play the 'pure' game before branching out into mods.
My best games of NS2 were about 90% on 8v8, with a very few instances of 10v10 or 11v11 (those were only "good" because I was successfully able to yell, threaten, cajole, nudge, push, cry, and scream at my team to make them listen to me), but that doesn't mean anything to someone whose best games of NS2 are on 16v16+.
What it does mean is that I enjoy less expendability in my team composition, more consequence for my actions, and a slightly higher value and emphasis toward individual skill. I do not by and large enjoy the shitshow that 10v10+ becomes.
But I too would like an official word on what the game 'is meant to be played' at.
First I'd like to mention that by standards around here, I qualify as a casual player, too; albeit as one with experience.
Second: Thanks! This is a much better foundation for a proper discussion.
However, I still see some problems here:
1) Have those 13 marine losses actually been shuffled before hand? A discussion about the hive system is moot if we work with data that doesn't even apply.
2) The game was built in a way, and is being developed, so that 12 - 24 player games of equally skilled teams across all skill levels should always be roughly balanced.
This means three things:
a) It shouldn't matter under which circumstances you play, due to hive being built for a wide range of skill levels.
b) Servers like *snip* are operating well beyond that specified range. This means that you are applying a system in an environment it was not built for. That's why few here find imbalance there every now and then not very surprising. And that's why you shouldn't expect it to work - nice if it does, but if it doesn't, well, it's not in the specifications.
c) The game is explicitly built around 12 - 24 player matches. (Arguably more of the lower playercounts - we used to have lots of discussions about 24p servers back in the day, and the comp scene throws a tantrum if anything messes up 6v6 balance.) This infers it's the way it was meant to be played by UWE. (After all why build a 12 - 24 player game if you want them to play it at 30p?) And now you come and talk about imbalance in the fourty player range, to which we respond that you shouldn't play like that, and then you complain we shouldn't push our way to play on to you... ...I mean what? This seems backwards, doesn't it?
I get your point. Arguably there's a group of players that want to play large scale games and thus someone should cater to them. UWE has so far not shown any interest (that I know of) of balancing around bigger player numbers (Personally, I could see a full fledged gamemode ns2large working - if I want it is another matter.), so I guess they've made their choice. And while this might alienate part of the playerbase, you can either play the game the way it's designed and (rightfully) complain if it doesn't work as intended, or you can play it in a way that is isn't designed and put up with the consequences.
So I guess the actual point of the discussion should be: Should ns2 support larger player numbers?
Well... we've had discussions about this in the past. Plenty. In fact a lot of people can't see them any more. The general consensus in the forum's community seems to be "no". To be fair, lots of people around here are pretty elitist and have a very specific opinion of what ns2 should be. I might be one of them. No further comment on that.
On the other hand there's UWE. As far as I can tell, they are largely silent on that matter. At the very least there's no sign of large playercount support any time soon, and again, the game was built around small playercounts. Some might argue it was even built around competitive play. So I guess their answers is "probably not" as well.
Again, I could - theoretically - see a proper "ns2large" gamemode working, but it would be a lot of work to set up. Not only would the game have to be rebalanced, it would require entire new maps, which is a huge amount of work, and it would generally speaking use up a lot of resources that could go into improving the main game. So I'd frankly rather not see it be worked on.
I used to get the warning. I finally ticked the box to not see it again when tgns went ns2large.
That is not the questions I asked.
I asked why does it seems like a very very even game balance break sometimes?
Is this hour related and does it happen on all servers?
You answered; it is outside the design so there is no point in discussion that.
I think there is a point and therefor raised the question.
You are welcome to not participate in the discussion if you find it irrelevant.
You are welcome to start a new thread with your question.
I find it interesting that something that is designed so well, and yet perhaps break some times.
Why is that?
What exactly makes it break?
Does it happen on all server types?
Do you have stats telling it does/does not happen on all server types?
No where did I say I want a balance change, or the larger server have higher priority, so please fix it.
I mean at best it was a fluke I happen to see.
Let me ask a slight different question;
Would it achieve even better balance on all server types if the server wrote the current balance of the last 10 games?
As far as I can remember the balance has been slightly in favor of Aliens. Sometimes more, sometimes less, especially recently it seems. I still mourn over ns2stats demise.
Looking at consecutive wins / looses doesn't tell you anything, they mostly are a fluke. Outliers in the statistics.
Now the daytime balance could be interesting to compare, to see how the communites slight different playstyle affects balance, but I guess the difference would be too small to be any meaningful.
Excuse me for keeping you for a new player. I concluded it by looking at your forum join date and you mentioning a specific server in regards of balance. So, I'm sorry if you felt like I was talking down to you. I'm not mad at you or a specific person, but at UWE. It was Flayra who said, that he doesn't want split community through things like compmod, but nothing has split the community more than large player servers and UWE did nothing about it!
You may think I'm a hardcore comp player, and despise pubs in general, but that is not true. Yes, I like competitive 6vs6 match, I have played in every comp season except one (not bragging, I'm still a mediocre player), but I still enjoy pubbing a lot, because of the reasons you mention: sitting back and having a relaxing match without pressure. On NS2 servers, you can still have a relaxed match. You can still go afk for a minute, or drop out, if you have to, UNLESS the game drops under 12 players, but that is not your problem at that point. It is actually UWEs problem.
I argue that ns2 with proper slot count is more relaxing. You don't have the voice chatter of 15 players in your ear, you don't have chaotic fights, you don't have stuttering fps.
You can actually take your time, utilize the map and generally play smart on a ns2 server.
But like I said, my rant is not about fun.
To your questions:
1) Personally I think the game is actually quite marine sided
2) The whole elo system does not work, because there is no matchmaking that forces people with similar elo ratings together, but instead it tries to balance the teams with the current players on the servers by simply having a similar elo team rating. That does not work, because most players stick to their favourite servers, where player skill and balance differ quite a lot.
Instead of having teams like this:
5000 vs 3800
3000 vs 3500
1200 vs 1000
800 vs 900
800 vs 700
500 vs 600
you actually want this:
900 vs 900
900 vs 900
900 vs 900
900 vs 900
900 vs 900
900 vs 900
The System is broken and always will be broken with the current dedicated server implementation.
All it does is giving players a better feeling, while still shuffling shitty matchups. That is the reason, I've disabled the whole elo system. I rather put the balance in the hands of humans, who COULD create interesting matches, if they wanted, instead of an algorhythm that COULD create an interesting match by chance. I've seen it so often, that players are trying to balance teams, but then elo votes screw everything over. At least it screws me over, because I would rather lose 10 matches, than win one in a 2 minute stomp.
Offtopic: The "Hive system" is still good in my eyes, because since we have it we can simply break open the deliberate stacking. Before the system there was no balanced games at all no matter what you did unless everyone agreed to Random and didn't switch afterwards (rare case). Now you can vote for a Semi-Random (aka Force even teams) and everyone has to stick to it (though that might be a mod that disallows switching?)
I mean if I look at the stats for the inappropriate servers:
*snip*
The balance is better than 45%/55% even if I look over individual days, weeks, month.
Are you suggesting the servers you play on are worse than that?
Do you stats for that?
I mean I think stats tells the exact opposite; overall the games are very even.
My assumption here is of cause that all games started with teams that were created base on (some approximation) of even hive score.
I have no recollection of games that were not shuffled based on hive score unless they already were nearly even.