Ns Is Balanced
SoBe_Dragon
Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10465Members
Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10465Members
<div class="IPBDescription">leave it alone</div> NS right now is 100% balanced and flawless the way it is. Bhopping, resource recycling, siege cannons, resource costs, hp of buildings and players, armor....its all PERFECT! Nothing needs to be changed at all. Marines dont need any changes, aliens dont need any changes. The game that I play now that flayra and co. created came out perfectly. No bugs or exploits are detracting from the game whatsoever. With consistent changes like they are planning to make in 1.1, ns
<i>will</i> become counter-strike. mark my words.
Warcraft 3 went through the same thing. The best WC3 got was beta 1.20...before they changed creeping, changed the loot system, and added the armor/damage table. If you played warcraft before it was publically released, you will know it was a better game in the betas.
Jedi Knight 2 went through the same thing. The best JK2 got was the first release. The second release changed some things for good and some for bad. For example, the fact that you couldnt die from DFA when the light sabre was in the ground was good, but you couldnt aim DFA was bad. The the third release came and they changed force costs, how potent they were, you couldnt pull people down anymore, and you couldnt back swing anymore.
Cstrike went through something similar. I would say beta 7.0 was the best cstrike got. Before they changed stuff like awp damage, and removing bunny hopping.
And right now i forsee NS going through the EXACT same process. The game is PERFECT the way it is, but because certain nub players cant understand its complexity they have to start changing certain things that dont need to be touched. All it takes is a good team. Not more expensive IP's, not removing resource recycling, not removing freaking models, not taking off bunny-hopping....its all in a good team. Leave NS alone, its perfectly balanced the way it is...
/rant off
flame me, thanks
<i>will</i> become counter-strike. mark my words.
Warcraft 3 went through the same thing. The best WC3 got was beta 1.20...before they changed creeping, changed the loot system, and added the armor/damage table. If you played warcraft before it was publically released, you will know it was a better game in the betas.
Jedi Knight 2 went through the same thing. The best JK2 got was the first release. The second release changed some things for good and some for bad. For example, the fact that you couldnt die from DFA when the light sabre was in the ground was good, but you couldnt aim DFA was bad. The the third release came and they changed force costs, how potent they were, you couldnt pull people down anymore, and you couldnt back swing anymore.
Cstrike went through something similar. I would say beta 7.0 was the best cstrike got. Before they changed stuff like awp damage, and removing bunny hopping.
And right now i forsee NS going through the EXACT same process. The game is PERFECT the way it is, but because certain nub players cant understand its complexity they have to start changing certain things that dont need to be touched. All it takes is a good team. Not more expensive IP's, not removing resource recycling, not removing freaking models, not taking off bunny-hopping....its all in a good team. Leave NS alone, its perfectly balanced the way it is...
/rant off
flame me, thanks
Comments
And yes, the alien-marine skin hack thing needs to go >=P
v1.1 sounds kickass, too. Can't wait for it.
How close do the numbers have to be to be to the actual correct answer to be considered correct?
Answer: as close as they need to be to get the job done.
The only way I feel people will consider a game to be completely balanced is if both sides are identical to each other, that way each side starts off on a level playing field and has the exact same options available to them. Obviously, this time of game would be boring <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Fact is we'll never know when the game is balanced truly. We won't even have a remote idea of its "level of balancedness". <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
All we can do is get close enough to it so that when the outcome of a game is achieved, the more capable side is the victor.
Bugs such as looking like the other team are examples of things that need to be removed. Another example was that weird bug in cstrike when you can change teams whenever you want, and your skin wouldnt change. THAT detracts from any type of gameplay that cstrike is trying to accomplish. The reason for that is because you confuse your enemies and that DOES detract from the purpose and spirit of the game. Removing resource recycling doesnt detract from the spirit of NS, it makes things move quicker and makes the marines work harder, I love it. The fact that the opposing team can get a hive faster then i think makes me twice as keen, and more efficent when i am comm.
Warcraft 3 went through the same thing. The best WC3 got was beta 1.20...before they changed creeping, changed the loot system, and added the armor/damage table. If you played warcraft before it was publically released, you will know it was a better game in the betas.
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please elaborate I am curious to see why you didn't like war 3 after the beta 1.20? What you mean changed creeping and looping?
And don't be too pessimistic. Even though some games have fallen from their former glory, not all have. Dev Teams that are smart will know how to preserve the fun of the game, such as Firearms, where newer versions have just gotten better and better. Flayra seems to have done, and has continued to provide changes that won't break the game (Other than the stupid file consistency checks <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
I think it is pretty well balanced, given the complexity of the game, but...
I wish the real battle took place at aliens with three hives, not two.
Because I never get to see Onoses and spore and xenocide when the marines haven't already lost
If the game could be as close as 6 fades and a couple of HAs with support at the three hive level (marines would need new tech), then I would somehow find a way to love this game more.
back in the betas creeping was much better then it is now. It wasnt NEARLY as hard to kill creeps, they gave more xp, and there were no air creeps. In the betas creeping REALLY mattered, and the players that crept, and crept well were rewarded. If you're hero died you were seriously ****. Now-a-days a hero isnt nearly as useful as his 1337 aura. Also, in 1.20 your hero got his big ability at level 5, not 6.
The loot was the absolute WORST thing to change in WC3. Back in the betas this was the loot:
Belt of strength +6str
Boots of Elvenkind +6agi
Some crown +6int
Ring of Wizardry - Increase mana regen by 50%
Ring of regen - Increase hp regen by 50% (i think)
Crown of Kings (100% droprate off of the level 9 center creeps on that one 12 player map) +5 to all stats
Ring of HP +250hp
Tome of...
XP (when you picked this up from level 1-3, it was an instant level)
STR
INT
AGI
Wand of Mastery (take control over 3 units in the game)
ALL of these drops were common off of normal creeps, and everyone got them. Its not like they were rare or anything. On Golems in the mist, I would creep the 3 gnolls next to my base and 100% of the time get a tome of str/agi and an XP tome.
There was ABSOLUTLY no loot like:
Scroll of ressurection
Scroll of reanimate dead
Gnoll mines
Potion of invuln.
Potion of get all HP and MP back by <i>clicking</i>
Wand of Negation (AE dispell)
Tome of greater XP
That one wirlwind stick
Wand of lightning shield
There was no damage table. *whiny voice* piercing does more damage to heeeeavy, siege does more damage to buildiiiiings. Forget that. I remember using Ballistas and archers to take out a base...and the ballistas were for the units! Every unit did what damage they were supposed to do, and that was the end of it. None of this "arrows somehow do more damage to knights with shields and armor, because they are classified as heavy" crap. I also love how little wooden spears some how damage an abomination more than a sword.
Look at how the cave troll reacted to Legolas's first arrow. He's all like "RRAAAAAR! ....umph! wtf?! **** RAAAAR!"
"i know this is off topic but...."
"could you elaborate on what you meant"
h00kd on f0nicKs W3rKed 4 M3!!
BlueGhost
Version 1 is nice, but it doesn't feel like the same NS we were playing. All in all I think NS is fairly balanced now, but I'd like to see things the way there were back in RC10.
Course, with the bugs fixes, auto team and server optimizations.
And on a different topic...
What was different in how the RC10 version played?
And on a different topic...
What was different in how the RC10 version played?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regen has its place, So does Redemption. Im hoping for major improvements on advanced hivesight in later versions
Anyhow this is how it sums up.. on the >24 ppl public servers i play. dunno if they upgraded to 1.04.. but whatever big server is out there (h2o #7, etc), i'm playing
1) Seige cannons when protected by turets(>5) and marines phasegating are utterly devastating when place within range of hives. Good commanders will race to getting these up before the aliens can get that ever important 2nd hive up and aliens usually have no option but to try to take down that cannon itself. If enough turrets are placed down, aliens will not touch the cannon. Seiges can shoot thru walls, hit things you didn't even know it could hit, and tears up lower level aliens like paper when they are near. When grens are added, it gets not ugly but ooogly.
Seige cannons + grenades + no real alien counter = dead aliens
2) Phase gates make it too easy for reinforcements to critical areas.. marines just phase gate to every hive or res tower instantly. Sumthing about marines not having to walk around the map that just irks me the wrong way.. Probably because it is so anti-"Aliens" (the movie) haha but it really makes being able to suprise marines out of the equation. Which leads me to my next topic..
3) Motion detection is too easy for the marines to find the aliens.. Aliens rely of stealth and detection so much and once marines get motion.. much of the 'suprise' is gone and marines see everything. True blue marine players don't call it wall hack for nothing. You might say aliens have it too.. yeah but aliens are susposed to strike fear by suprising marines. and you might say what about cloaking?
4) Experienced NS players will get defense chamber (for carapace or redemption) first.. and the same players will grill gorges over hot coals if sensory is put down first. Only cloaking in sensory is useful and you must get in position and setup then wait and cloak for it to be useful.. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> marines usually find you while moving before you get a chance to set up.
Anyhow... My problem still lie at #1. (I can accept most of the other nuisances but in a perfect world the phase and motion would be harder to put down and get to respectively.) Seiges are unnecessary when grenades in skillful hands will do the same job. The only true mass destruction weapon comparable with aliens is a bunch of fades.
Good commanders will seige hives and the usual case (with experienced players) ends up being aliens with one hive while other hives are seiged with an unpenatrable defense.
I was in several games where there were inexperienced commanders who didn't know how seige is that powerful and never used them. This led to great, epic struggles between alien and marines.. each taking control of areas by teaming up with each other and using actual skill. It was very gratifying for everyone because everyone thought 'oh my team still has a chance if we play it right'.. that is the pinnacle of my NS experiences.. and even when the gorges was plopping down soo many offensive chambers, they were still cleaned out by the gren launchers.. while a bunch of turrets are always difficult to bring down even with fades.
I know there are effective skulk rushes where aliens win, but it doesnt have the same satisfaction factor as in using the full depth of your alien repetoire skillfully against an equally skillful marine team and acheive victory. winning with fades was the 2nd way aliens usually won, but this is now practically non-existant with all the seiging.
Im not saying this will correct all the problems and if seiging is remedied, it might cause other balancing that needs to be attended to. But the Fun- factor will be greatly increased..
BTW A great game of NS is just way oodles more fun than a great game of Counterstrike.
SAY NO TO <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just my 2 cents <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Arcane
Most people complain about the status of a game (ie Warcraft3, NS, CS) simply because they've played long enough on a particular version and have gotten used to it. Its what they're good at, tested, are familiar with.
People are generally going to compain with their "its not like the good ol' days" rants irregardless of how things are.
CS could have the order of its development put in reverse (newest version out first version, and the earliest version out its last and latest) and people will still complain about how games just simply aren't as good as they used to be, and that its going downhill, bla bla bla...
do you play marines as much as aliens?
does either team win and lose as much as the other?
regardless, i'd rather trust the dev team's assesment of game balance than i'd trust some random player's opinion.
Game Balance seems to me to be a very tricky issue, especially when teams are as 'different' as in NS.
I think that due to these differences, there will always be some way for one team to 'exploit' them (for want of a better word)
For example;
Marines are powerful at the game start. They could (and can) rush the hive and take it down at game start.
The Lerk/Fade/Gorge/Umbra/Web combination can be very hard to counter without decent weapons.
I think that each patch will go some way to improve these imbalances BUT as each team is so different, there will always be some way to take an advantage. - e.g Lots of marines with GL's in 1.04?! (Yes I know it hasnt been finalised <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
In the worst case scenario, this advantage could swap between teams with each patch for some time.
Could it be that this game will always be 'slightly' imbalanced. It just becomes a battle to learn and exploit these imbalances before the other team?
I hope not.
I love the game and cant wait for the next patch!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Roll on Marines vs Marines <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
#Cakes.
NS is balanced, but the game flow is not perfect. And its balanced with 14-18 players... With more players it gets harder for aliens to win and with less players is harder for marines.
The biggest balance changes IMO were the reduction of Fade's acid bomb radius, increase in phase gate cost, and decrease in phase gate hitpoints.
The latter is a huge change, and was really needed.
I've heard people complain about grenades being too strong in 1.04, but I don't know if that's true. They can be great for surpressing areas, or taking out buildings... but they're expensive... and if you kill the grenadier, the team will feel it. Not only in resources, but in defensive/offensive capabilities.
Anyway... I don't think I could go back to playing 1.03 after playing 1.04... such a big difference.
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Nullzero