Why are there no commanders?
Airwolf_swe
Sweden Join Date: 2013-12-15 Member: 190114Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Sweden Join Date: 2013-12-15 Member: 190114Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Here is a typical day for a commander in NS2 public game:
Wait for 5min for commander to sit down on comchair, still noone. wait another 5min for a commander.
Ok commander sit down in chair.
*game start*
P: I want mines give me mines,
P: no I want shotgun give me shotgun,
P: build ip commander,
P: no nades commander,
P: nonono give us upgrade
P: MEDPACK medpack me commander,
P: why dont we have upgrades?
P:I just medpacked you all
*if no medpack and go straight for upgrades:*
P:why dont we have medpacks STUPID fucking commander med me I save the game for you.
C: I went for upgrades
P: Why dont we have upgrades?
C: well we dont have any RT I told you we need to protect the RTs.
C drops arms labs
C: Build arms lab guys *say in mic*
10min noone build arm lab
P: why do you have 50res, commander AFK kick him.
C: Build arms lab
P started votekick
C *Sigh*
C: GO to location A guys, *pinging map* im gonna do this and then this.......
P goes to location B, dies
P goes to location C, dies
P goes to location D, dies
C: *sigh*
P: spread out in 7locations
P: Medpack me commander *over mic*
C: where are you?
P: MEDPACK ME COMMANDER
C: where are you use keybind request
P dies P STUPID COMMANDER
huge assault going on at hive:
C medpack player at hive, while building arc, and upgrades, while checking map for bile rush.
P at location B, E, H requesting medpack, P at location H requesting RT
C managed to do request 3places,
P: stupid commander start exo
Marine win: yeah good teamwork veyry good teamwork from the players
Marine loose: AWWW STUPID COMMANder I blame the commander we didnt get medpack, we didnt get upgrades.
next round start: wait 5min no commander
old commander: why dont you guys that complained sit in the chair?
P: Nonono I cant command
P: Nonono I cant command Im to valueble
P: .....
*wait another 10min no commander.
The logic is you cant win as commander. please all of you that complain all the time, go sit in the comchair and try out how easy it is to handle 20different player strategies they are trying to convince you to do.
I just wanted to post how it is to be a commander. I recently decided to drop commanding on one particular server, cause it was just to frustrating player never listen and then complained about com. No team was actually winning, so I decided to jump out and switch team, since noone listen anyway. votekicked.
Now Im def not the top 10commanders in NS2 and I wouldn't have a chance against the SC2players. but I say Im def above average as Ns2 commander. well enough to used the keybinds, shift. Different com got different tactics, and depending on what players are on the server, map etc.
Feel free to add more ironic commander experience
Wait for 5min for commander to sit down on comchair, still noone. wait another 5min for a commander.
Ok commander sit down in chair.
*game start*
P: I want mines give me mines,
P: no I want shotgun give me shotgun,
P: build ip commander,
P: no nades commander,
P: nonono give us upgrade
P: MEDPACK medpack me commander,
P: why dont we have upgrades?
P:I just medpacked you all
*if no medpack and go straight for upgrades:*
P:why dont we have medpacks STUPID fucking commander med me I save the game for you.
C: I went for upgrades
P: Why dont we have upgrades?
C: well we dont have any RT I told you we need to protect the RTs.
C drops arms labs
C: Build arms lab guys *say in mic*
10min noone build arm lab
P: why do you have 50res, commander AFK kick him.
C: Build arms lab
P started votekick
C *Sigh*
C: GO to location A guys, *pinging map* im gonna do this and then this.......
P goes to location B, dies
P goes to location C, dies
P goes to location D, dies
C: *sigh*
P: spread out in 7locations
P: Medpack me commander *over mic*
C: where are you?
P: MEDPACK ME COMMANDER
C: where are you use keybind request
P dies P STUPID COMMANDER
huge assault going on at hive:
C medpack player at hive, while building arc, and upgrades, while checking map for bile rush.
P at location B, E, H requesting medpack, P at location H requesting RT
C managed to do request 3places,
P: stupid commander start exo
Marine win: yeah good teamwork veyry good teamwork from the players
Marine loose: AWWW STUPID COMMANder I blame the commander we didnt get medpack, we didnt get upgrades.
next round start: wait 5min no commander
old commander: why dont you guys that complained sit in the chair?
P: Nonono I cant command
P: Nonono I cant command Im to valueble
P: .....
*wait another 10min no commander.
The logic is you cant win as commander. please all of you that complain all the time, go sit in the comchair and try out how easy it is to handle 20different player strategies they are trying to convince you to do.
I just wanted to post how it is to be a commander. I recently decided to drop commanding on one particular server, cause it was just to frustrating player never listen and then complained about com. No team was actually winning, so I decided to jump out and switch team, since noone listen anyway. votekicked.
Now Im def not the top 10commanders in NS2 and I wouldn't have a chance against the SC2players. but I say Im def above average as Ns2 commander. well enough to used the keybinds, shift. Different com got different tactics, and depending on what players are on the server, map etc.
Feel free to add more ironic commander experience
Comments
- abolute rookies who play the 1st time:
These players tend to run around clueless in large Lemmingpacks and have no aim.
If you dont drop sentrys everywhere and give them fast exos you are a bad commander.
- average wannabe pro player
They believe they have understanded the game and yelling useless stuff most the time.
Things like: "com, drop a pg in locker. we need this room secured" while you say to them "go maintanance, locker is fine. I want a more aggressive PG"
No PG, armory and obs drop in locker=bad com
- the clanplayers
While these players carry your team, they yelling for meds nonstop.
And if dont med in that milisecond they pressed the request button, you are a bad com.
You have all of these 3 types in every round most of the time and if the game is lost its the coms fault for sure.
Its not the fault of the rookies running around clueless with 3%aim, not the fault of the average pseudo pro who want unneeded or useless stuff while teammates are dying or RTs going down and not the clanplayers fault who think he can win the game alone vs 20 aliens with enough meds.
I remember a game on Veil.
Aliens had 2 hives in sub and cargo and 3 harvesters. We had 6 RTs, a PG in nano and system and i was about to pump out arcs to siege sub. Also W2, a1 shottys around 7 min mark.
Then people start to eject me.
Why, cause they died to much cause no meds in that moment i was saving for arcs.
The ego of some is just amazing.
I know the frustration if you die against a lerk or fade cause no meds and you know "With 1 or 2 meds the lifeform would be down", but in a situation like above where you have everything you need for an easy peasy win, these reactions are only stupid.
I do command public games, I'm familiar with the struggle. There are times where you can do everything right and team will still lose the game because they run around like headless chickens. The question is, however, how you handle that, and a lot of this is about attitude. Getting angry at a bunch of rookies won't make them more willing to cooperate; neither will heated arguments with the team in allchat - which is what happened in that very game on the GPlay server that you referenced.
If you approach public commanding with a competitive attitude: Don't. Relax, accept the fact that - before you enter the chair - things may no go as you plan, and stay positive. I've had plenty of games where I commanded a bunch of rookies, knowing even before the game started that we'd have little chance ot winning this, and despite losing those rounds we had a good game - as a team.
Regarding the 1% of players - both veterans and rookies - that are simply toxic from the very moment they're on the server: Ignore and/or votekick - but don't argue. It's contagious & a waste of time. The reason why *you* got votekicked off that server wasn't primarily because marines wanted to get some revenge at you for leaving the com chair, but because half the server was annoyed about the "You don't listen" - "No, YOU don't listen!" - "Stupid retards!" - level of conversation that was going on while people just wanted to play the game without the drama.
Don't listen to @Luchs , he let us get bilebomb rushed in Flight Control from the bottom vent, TWICE!, even though he was told fifty times to put an observatory there
As i have no mic I give way points at the very start for where I want groups of players to go and/or I simply write quickly where to go and which route -"Topo > nano". I also have players with mic to convey my request but this isn't always an option so I don't rely on this. Players don't always but sometimes follow my requests.
as I have no mic I don't get as frustrated as the ppl with a mic who are repeating themselves orders and are getting frustrated. Also players with mics sometimes become focused on attacking at the front with their orders and support, they lose a bit of map awareness leading to a loss from bile rush, but this is besides the point.
When ppl do ask for upgrades, meds or anything, if I can't or don't think it's best I simply type "no res for meds," "w2 first", "second hive, bile, leap then spurs" etc. If ppl continue to complain I say if you keep annoying I will mute you.
sometimes players shut up and start to blame me for losing the round (at that very moment as I don't do as they say and even if we are in a good position) and f4- this doesn't happen as often now. I do still often get a few players that vote eject me but I don't let this bother me. The vote has gotten down to the last few players on occasion but doesn't quite make it and sometimes just the odd few players that vote to eject. We do still go to victory.
Upon the threat of muting, players often quiet down a bit, leaving me to command and probably being ready to blame me. they end up saying they had a good team but shit commander, or just say nothing. Either way it's another victory for me.
As I often play on the same servers, others know that I am a good commander without a mic so I don't get the as much of the demand for support and upgrades as I use to and let me be. If I do, it will be from new player to the server who come from other servers that requires different strategy. -I now am not as good of a commander on servers with less than 24 players, whereas I usually win as commander on 24+ as the commanding strategy is different.
Thinking about it, it's usually players with mics that become annoying, especially the very active mic users who may try to lead the team one route which from the commanders view, I doubt will work meaning I have to get more active with my writing and way points directing ppl somewhere else.
My advice to players who would like to command but feel put of by players is for you to do what you think is best as you are the commander - I like to remind players this sometimes. Warn ppl that you will mute them if they don't shut up (if you mute someone let them know) but if you do get these type of players, do announce your general plan - w2 then sg, secure system then we arc nano, pg firsts etc. Just helps reassure the team you have a plan.
an important gameplay advice, be prepared to suspend upgrade to get arcs if players are at a deadlock early on as that sometimes last the whole game costing it for marine because they were to afraid to push in. Do say that if you can't push in I will get arcs to support.
ultimately, don't be so sensitive to words and what people think/say, just man up. Sticks and stones...
No (visible) badges = Rookie commander.
I don't command, but it helps a lot if the commander is very vocal (pretty much talking the whole time) and positive. Less space for players to complain and suggest things.
Its my way or no way. If they disagree they can eject. (which happens almost never because none wants to command and since im doing 'something'.)
I mute players who spam meds like the key is stuck. No more spam requests.
I mute players who spam their voice or chat. Problem solved.
While I do, technicly, not only implement my way but also try to adjust to my team I still expect a certain amount of listening.
Anyone who complains gets the comment 'do YOU wanna do it? You can, I can logout right now for you'.
I agree most in pubs are idiots in terms of commanding. (and I do not mean the commanders)
This is a common misunderstanding that many new players have.
A commander does not necessarily have to give any orders. You should already know what to do at any moment with a little map awareness and communication with the rest of the team. And if you don't, you could have someone else in the team being a field com. That guy (at least in pubs) should usually be the most experienced player in the team, not necessarily the commander.
Having lots of greens running in circles while shooting the floor and blaming the com for not giving orders is another reason why so many people refuse to learn how to command.
Rounds can be very frustrating at times and I guess it causes some players to vent at the most convenient target. I definitely agree that players can be too critical of the comm's actions, but it's inevitable since the comm plays such a vital role, especially on marines. It can be very demoralizing and I think it's one of the biggest reasons why the majority of inexperienced comms, even those with comm badges, stay away from the chair even if minutes have passed in pregame. I see this happening all the time, especially on 32/40-man servers.
Some comms foresee potential riots and they make sure to let their team know of decisions before making them, such as saving up for something and sacrificing meds. If you're an inexperienced or slow comm on a large server, you have plenty of res, I'm out of ammo, I'm performing well, there isn't an armory in sight, and you haven't dropped me anything for the past minute, then I'll probably sound annoyed in voice chat. I won't ever raise my voice at anyone, though. More players need to offer constructive criticism and learn how to keep their emotions in check instead of childishly resorting to profanity and belittling people. It's sad how some people think anonymity allows them to act out online. What's also sad is how some people, online or offline, think that openly speaking their mind is always a good thing when they might be hurting others' emotions and burning bridges needlessly.
Comms have a lot on their plate at times and I can't imagine how hard it is to keep track of 15 to 19 marines at once. On the bright side, I get a warm, fuzzy feeling inside when I see experienced comms work their magic and they seem godlike at times. My favorite comms are the experienced ones who aren't bullheaded, yet they brush aside scathing remarks or even get a little cocky when they make a mistake or unconventional strats don't pan out.
And if anyone want to know the particular server I mention my tactics were the fallowing:
Location H: Armory (10res) hub, observatory (10) , mines (10), Phase tech (10) > phase gate (15)
Now you tell me how many teamres that is roughly? 40teamres in the initial phase and then 15*2. So yeah I was holding the teamres for my team to push to location H so I could drop the stuff. But did anyone listen? Nope, hence I had alot of teamres.
See you cant even win an argue even when you reveal the tactics...
Anyhow just wanted to share how frustrating it is to command. Im glad most of you share my view how frustrating it is. And the one that complain rarely do a better job.
@Gooch123 how are you suppose to micromanage when team dont listen?
Sometimes I really understand why alucard yells all the time, its so frustrating.
Step 0:
Play the game on the field, but focus on the commanders (both yours and the enemy commander) and what he is doing - are you satisfied with it? Why/why not? This will help you find some tricks of the trade, but be ready to change and try out new things. You will be wrong, more than just alot. Return to this when in doubt.
Step 1:
Learn the hotkeys and mechanics in singleplayer. This means, get the E-S medpack down, control group the armslab, armory and observatory, so you can keep watching the field and not the base.
Step 2:
Practice medpacks, while getting upgrades. 50% accuracy on +200 medpack games. Medpacks are the backbone of the marine commander. If you in step 0 came to the conclusion that medpacks are useless, return to step 0. Start using drifter micro - using one to travel around the map is ok. Go crag hive/A1 first. Try not to cheese - Its a poor way of practicing.
Step 3:
Learn where to look on the field, namely the front line and the pressuring marines - recappers and people going towards the front line take 2nd priority. As alien commander, make sure that you help your frontline too with drifters. Start using bonewall. +55% on 200+ medpack games. Learn to setup your base, and the location of different structures.
Step 4:
Start making minor calls: "XX, please go to platform, and build/save the RT". Expect them not to listen. Get crags at key points (f.ex. on summit, get crags at naturals). Keep an eye on your shells/shifts/veils and start shifting things around. Shift hives are NOT for beginners, they require drifter micro for resbiters, and shifting micro to show their full potential, while crag hive is alot more static, and forgiving of lack of micro. +60% accuracy on +200 medpack games. Arcs are a thing now. So are crag/whip rushes.
Step 5:
Learn a buildorder from early to late game. Learn the timings of when lifeforms pop out, and what you should have to counter them (sgs vs lerks, pgs vs fades)
Step 6:
Micromanage more - shut down holes, call rotations, force your team to communicate, get information, make better decitions. Again, dont expect them to listen.
Step 7:
Micromanage everything. Expect them to listen, Because at this point, you are an awesome commander. +70% accuracy on +200 medpack games.
Rules of thump:
Always med marines when they have W3 - Crazy things can and will happen.
Always get drifters for onoses.
Crags are your friends, and a nightmare for the marines.
Take responsibility - don't let the team blame it on you.
When in doubt - JUST DO IT, and learn from it.
You should get the feeling right now, that you are going to focus alot on your own gameplay. Many times you wont lose the game but rather your team; It does take a keen trained mind to understand the difference though! Many commanders keep calling, but keep failing in their own game/management, which basicly makes them useless. Many players keep watching the commander but fail their own game. You backbone is your mechanics. Management of your marines and resources is an art form, which has several different styles - Get a teacher/mentor. Unfortunately, many of the NS2 gurus have stopped playing the game, and there are very few "masters" of the game left, so dont take peoples word for granted.
Even on rookies with poor aim so long as they are not ramboing or doing something entirely stupid... you can afford a 1 tres medpack.
By design you are supposed to split your Tres between expansion, support and teching up... but in reality if your support is lacking the other two aren't even on the table most of the time.
This
Since mostly we're complaining about marine commanders, this is the key. It's a giant balancing act of res management. You can't just go one tree or another, you have to do all of them, and spend wisely. I'm not saying you have to get all of the tech paths in sync, but you do need to spread the res out, don't hoard it all for ups as soon as they become available or your marines will die on the field. Likewise don't med the stuffing out of your marines and neglect the ups, or they'll die at the first lerk.
There's several schools of thought about comming. In spite of what everyone (myself included) says, micromanaging does yield the best results from a commander who knows the game.
I agree that everyone needs game-sense (even a thimble), but if they lack that, a good comm can more than make up for it by field commanding at the same time as real-commanding.
I'm one of those annoying* players that's always commanding, even if I'm not commanding. Unless i'm in the presence of people I know have the same or greater game-sense than I do, i'll happily talk my teams' ears off until they do the right* thing.
What makes this game different than any RTS is that you're dealing with people. Some may be jerks, some may be idiots, some may be clueless. Your job as comm is to talk, order, cry, yell, and threaten them all into doing the right thing, if they're not already doing so. You have to lead them, some teams lead themselves, some need more work. Such is the work of the comm.
The reason comms don't comm all the time is because it's exhausting to do it right. I've successfully wrangled teams that started out not listening to me, it just takes a lot of work.
Key points to think about:
You have to convince your team that you're worth listening to.
This really boils down to reputation. I play regularly enough on a few servers to where people recognize that I might just know what I'm talking about, sometimes. That makes all the difference. Barring reputation, you need to talk, a lot, from the beginning. Micromanaging gives the strongest sense of "oh shit this guy knows what he's doing" more than any other method of comming. Giving clear goals on a small scale to the players on the field keeps their mind focused on what they need to do, and makes them think you know what you need to be doing.
Calling names makes a world of difference.
Back to microing here. Even if not all the time, but when you really need someone to do something, call their name. Its harder for them to ignore you or imagine someone else will do it.
Figure out who the carrys are.
Med the stuffing out of them. Give them the hard tasks, like pressuring or holding a choke point, make them rambo if they want to rambo, but give them a little support and make them think they're doing it because you told them to. Often enough they'll be fine doing what they're doing, occasionally you'll need to give them a direct order that overrides their programming to snap them somewhere they're desperately needed, but as long as you've won their trust, they'll listen.
Dont' screw up the tech paths.
Just. dont. If you're trying something new, make sure you tell people. Even then we'll be unhappy probably. If you've commed a bit and people know you you'll get away with this more. I tried a catpack axe rush the other day because i was sick of comming and noone else was going to. But the team was totally for it.
TL/DR:
It's not necessarily the comm's fault, but it's not necessarily not the comm's fault either. There's a lot more to comming than tech paths, medding, and a little bit of strategy.
I prefer to give meds to the ones who survived.
You can't it's an alien trait already (with or without Regen upgrade).
Understand that a lot of ideas suggested on this forums do NOT includes proper background checking. Alien and Marine are opposed in a lot of ways. Close to every way as a Nemesis. They simply do things differently.
+Marines have already all they need to survive in there. Medpack, cheap welder, nano shield and so on.
Health regen doesn't belong in NS and the topic has been over-done time and time again since NS2 was in early development, it wouldn't work and would be really overpowered, see NS1's regen HP mod or even regen armour mod, makes incredibility good players even harder to kill. And we're all disenfranchised from seeing it overused in games since call of duty/battlefield.
It is already easier than many RTS. Of course there is no "how to", but only by studying a little bit the commander keyboard config... you can at least try and see what is what.
Any normal human will understand what to do in less than 2 hours in the sandbox. It's better than jumping in with no clue and ruin a game publicly.
Its the result of individual players using mic, share informations and react to this in a proper way.
Something like "fade is coming warehouse you can trap him in north tunnel" and a player go there.
If you have a server filled with players of equal skill, the team that communicates going to win most games vs a team send around by com.
The "the com is the brain and giving orders and every1 follow them" might work in Clanwars but not in pub.
And no, commanding a team wich is not communicating filled with the 3 types of player i mentioned above is not funny.
Thats why noone want to be the com.
Unfortunately, even as someone who's been comming since NS1 1.0, I think it might be time to recognise that the commanding mechanic is a flawed one from a gameplay perspective.
More and more invisible things
No Pres anymore + a countdown before getting Pres again once you get out
No improvement concerning orders / interface etc.
In and out of the chair sequence not really helping. Sometimes you get out and you wonder were you are.
Drifter once called Volvo....
And so on.
I'm afraid to say the commander is considered as the bum while it is one of the most skilled one on the team. Not only by the players but UWE too it seems. I'm thinking that a player should be excluded from hive stats when starting a game as commander. The commander relies so much on his team now that it's completely unfair to get a 'fall' when the team fails. Especially when the commander render a service not many are willing to do.
A big reason why I don't/can't command is because you force even teams. Currently at 2.2k elo, way above avg. So a shuffle relies on me to carry a team. Which I can do at times, but ONLY if I'm on the field.
Commanders elo should be ignored when doing a shuffle. And left out of the avg. skill that many servers show on the scoreboard.