How could we make concede less anticlimactic? Then a discussion on end game mechanics.

NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
edited December 2015 in NS2 General Discussion
If you can get your team to concede, it just ends. That is boring and anticlimactic. I often see newer players who don't fully understand the game ask "What happened, Why did we win/lose?" when a concede happens. They felt like they were not done yet.

In this thread I am not looking to discuss how to make newer players understand what is going on, but how can we can make a concede more fun for everyone.

On the TacticalGamer server we have a mod called "Win or Lose" where the winning team has 60 seconds to kill the last chair or hive. This gives a bit more closure because you feel like you actually did something. When this happens a timer shows up on the screen and says "Go kill the hive/chair." I really like this feature, but it has some problems. Players that don't play on tactical gamer are often confused as to what is happening. The regular players inform them what they need to do. I don't think this would work as well in vanilla because in a server with only rookies would not know what to do.

That is just one example of how to make concede more fun. What other ideas can we come up with?

Maybe when the aliens concede they all go xenocide. They have 10 seconds to find a marine to explode by. All aliens and alien structures would explode killing anything within a certain range. They still lose, but it gives them a little something fun to do. I don't have an equivalent idea for the marines though.
Post edited by Nordic on
From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
FearlessJamesSaffron_bakerZek
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Comments

  • FearlessJamesFearlessJames Members Join Date: 2015-12-09 Member: 209849Posts: 88 Advanced user
    Yes,yes,yey,and YES. Conceding in general is SO boring. Usually for me,the team concedes right away when we lose ONE resource tower! Pathetic! But something like the Kharaa exploding would be a little fun!.........I still hate teams that give up so easily. I'm not saying conceding is bad! Sometimes you KNOW you're gonna lose :)
    "Humans evolve within millions of years,but I.....evolve within seconds......"
  • krOozekrOoze Members Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Posts: 278 Fully active user
    edited December 2015
    Nah, just play animation of gorges in suits with white flags signing peace treaties or something.

    Lets just make last stands so terribly boring, people will learn to concede.

    LOLJK

    Like that xenocide idea. Reminds me of Lemmings game concede.

    Maybe some variety of random and mayhem scenarios can happen. Different thing each time. Maybe give loosing side onoses for their last life in exchange for all structures.

    Some people proposed more pregame for newbies to learn. This can be natural post-game training for them too.

    Though there IS a possibility it may get boring fast too. People just want to start another proper game and not doodle around. The stupid map vote delay and team making and comm choosing are bad enough delay between games already.
  • SebSeb Melbourne, AUMembers, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2013-04-01 Member: 184576Posts: 515 mod
    Why not some kind of self destruct thing, if people vote to concede it starts a countdown and lights start flashing red if you concede on marines and maybe rupture animations start everywhere on infestation as aliens. At the end of the timer the hive/cc explodes and everyone that is left alive is in sudden death with health draining or something.

    IDK ideas yo
    Bensonwoozahalfofaheavenelodea
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws DenmarkMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    Seb wrote: »
    Why not some kind of self destruct thing, if people vote to concede it starts a countdown and lights start flashing red if you concede on marines and maybe rupture animations start everywhere on infestation as aliens. At the end of the timer the hive/cc explodes and everyone that is left alive is in sudden death with health draining or something.

    IDK ideas yo

    Yea cus who likes healthy frame rates anyway right? :D
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    Maybe a suicide attack from a Hive would be better for a last ditch maneuver as opposed to straight up conceding. Have the hive crawl right up to the marine base, latch onto the command station for damage over time and if it manages to survive, the hive would takeover that techpoint for itself. This would prevent any additional eggs from spawning as the hive would be pre-occupied of course.

    Actually, that sounds cooler as endgame tech :tongue: .

    Can't think of an equivalent for the marines.
  • SebSeb Melbourne, AUMembers, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2013-04-01 Member: 184576Posts: 515 mod
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    Seb wrote: »
    Why not some kind of self destruct thing, if people vote to concede it starts a countdown and lights start flashing red if you concede on marines and maybe rupture animations start everywhere on infestation as aliens. At the end of the timer the hive/cc explodes and everyone that is left alive is in sudden death with health draining or something.

    IDK ideas yo

    Yea cus who likes healthy frame rates anyway right? :D

    Who cares about frame rates with the game decided and with 60 seconds or less left in the game? :P

    I don't even think it would be that bad lol
  • OscarTheCouchOscarTheCouch Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34647Posts: 142 Advanced user
    Mute the whiners and you will have less concedes
    twitch.tv/Kalost_tpf
    The_Welsh_Wizard
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    IronHorse wrote: »
    There's a bunch of ideas, there's the win or lose mod from Tactical Gamer, there's a cinematic that could be played, there's room for minigames etc..
    I know there are a lot of ideas, but what are they. Which one would be best and why?
    IronHorse wrote: »
    But frankly.. I'd rather spend the time to fix the need for the frequent use of concede, and just leave concede as is.
    It still has a place and a use sure, but the frequency of its use speaks volumes as to a core issue with your average round, regarding slippery slopes and lack of comeback viability.

    To make a game that does not have a need to concede would change a whole lot of balance things. Not only would it require more coding time, it would also take months of playtesting. In the best case scenario you might have a game that still occasionally could use a concede function. In the worst case scenario, re balancing the game pushed away the remaining player base.

    A more fun concede function is more immediate. I doubt it would require much development time either.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    Soul_Rider
  • FearlessJamesFearlessJames Members Join Date: 2015-12-09 Member: 209849Posts: 88 Advanced user
    @IronHorse I cannot stress how many times people concede when i'm on. They got an RT? Concede. They started phasetech early on? Concede. They started 2 seconds faster then us? Concede. I hate hearing the comms over the mic just sigh and huff when it's something so simple.......pathetic >:I
    "Humans evolve within millions of years,but I.....evolve within seconds......"
  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Members Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Posts: 782 Advanced user
    Seb wrote: »
    Why not some kind of self destruct thing, if people vote to concede it starts a countdown and lights start flashing red if you concede on marines and maybe rupture animations start everywhere on infestation as aliens. At the end of the timer the hive/cc explodes and everyone that is left alive is in sudden death with health draining or something.

    IDK ideas yo

    This, but while Ode To Joy plays in the background ala Peggle.
  • soccerguy243soccerguy243 Members, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2012-12-22 Member: 175920Posts: 515 Advanced user
    the concede should just turn the game into that standoff mod that UWE made during a game jam they did. The conceding team gets just one life the winning team gets unlimited respawns until they manage to overrun the conceding team.
    Saltlick
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    the concede should just turn the game into that standoff mod that UWE made during a game jam they did. The conceding team gets just one life the winning team gets unlimited respawns until they manage to overrun the conceding team.

    Not a bad idea.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    On the TacticalGamer server we have a mod called "Win or Lose" where the winning team has 60 seconds to kill the last chair or hive. This gives a bit more closure because you feel like you actually did something. When this happens a timer shows up on the screen and says "Go kill the hive/chair." I really like this feature, but it has some problems. Players that don't play on tactical gamer are often confused as to what is happening. The regular players inform them what they need to do. I don't think this would work as well in vanilla because in a server with only rookies would not know what to do.

    One of the reasons why I don't like playing there. Its annoying and pointless. When the game is over I just want to start a new game. Killing a defenseless structure and deliberately aiming away from players is not what I would call fun.

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    On the TacticalGamer server we have a mod called "Win or Lose" where the winning team has 60 seconds to kill the last chair or hive. This gives a bit more closure because you feel like you actually did something. When this happens a timer shows up on the screen and says "Go kill the hive/chair." I really like this feature, but it has some problems. Players that don't play on tactical gamer are often confused as to what is happening. The regular players inform them what they need to do. I don't think this would work as well in vanilla because in a server with only rookies would not know what to do.

    One of the reasons why I don't like playing there. Its annoying and pointless. When the game is over I just want to start a new game. Killing a defenseless structure and deliberately aiming away from players is not what I would call fun.

    Its not perfect, and I stated as much. Seems you like concede just as it is. Do you think there could be a less anticlimactic concede that would not bother you?
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    On the TacticalGamer server we have a mod called "Win or Lose" where the winning team has 60 seconds to kill the last chair or hive. This gives a bit more closure because you feel like you actually did something. When this happens a timer shows up on the screen and says "Go kill the hive/chair." I really like this feature, but it has some problems. Players that don't play on tactical gamer are often confused as to what is happening. The regular players inform them what they need to do. I don't think this would work as well in vanilla because in a server with only rookies would not know what to do.

    One of the reasons why I don't like playing there. Its annoying and pointless. When the game is over I just want to start a new game. Killing a defenseless structure and deliberately aiming away from players is not what I would call fun.

    Its not perfect, and I stated as much. Seems you like concede just as it is. Do you think there could be a less anticlimactic concede that would not bother you?

    Shrug. A short skippable animation?

    I think that concede being anti climatic is not a problem with concede. Rather, it is because players inexplicably concede or at least seem to. If you have destroyed their last hope (hive/lifeform/base/pg/etc) and they concede, it is very clear what happened and should be satisfying enough for players. If they concede out of frustration from res pressure, it is not immediately clear to all and thus unsatisfying to those.

    Also, there are players who hold very different views as to what I would consider a good game. I'm not sure if those are the majority or the minority, but there are players who very much like last stands and conceding is just out of the question to them. If they themselves refuse to concede, I don't think they like the idea of the other team conceding either.
  • EggOfAwesomeEggOfAwesome Members Join Date: 2015-01-31 Member: 201139Posts: 32 Fully active user
    I agree with Benson on that. Pretty cool idea you've got there.

    By the way, 90th viewer!
  • SaltlickSaltlick Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177347Posts: 86 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    the concede should just turn the game into that standoff mod that UWE made during a game jam they did. The conceding team gets just one life the winning team gets unlimited respawns until they manage to overrun the conceding team.
    After reading http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/139693/absolute-win-conditions, I was thinking the same thing. Let the winning team go on a player hunt, but only give them a minute or so before everyone is wiped automatically.

    Benson wrote: »
    Aliens:
    "the Command Center is overloading the power grid, destroy it before the complex explodes!"

    Marines:
    "The Hive is preparing to flood the air with acidic fumes, destroy it before it finishes!
    This is a much cooler version of the mod on Tactical Gamer.


    Yojimbo
  • SebSeb Melbourne, AUMembers, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2013-04-01 Member: 184576Posts: 515 mod
    edited December 2015
    Benson wrote: »
    Aliens:
    "the Command Center is overloading the power grid, destroy it before the complex explodes!"

    Marines:
    "The Hive is preparing to flood the air with acidic fumes, destroy it before it finishes!

    Thats pretty cool, what about a selection of different scenarios that randomly take place, so that conceding isn't exactly the same each time, while still completing the same or similar objective?

    I also agree with Ironhorse about the frequency of concede, but maybe fixing that + adding this would make it rarer and more exciting.



    YojimboNordicBensonelodea
  • WyzcrakWyzcrak Pot Pie Aficionado Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10447Posts: 920 mod
    Mute the whiners and you will have less concedes
    TGNS has imperfectly demonstrated the benefits of this social change. It tolerates individuals calling for concede, but rarely before a silently failed vote or three. Comms stay more focused on gameplay, some concedes are converted to genuine entertainment (win or not), and the most impatient among us suffer the brunt of the pain (you can't please everyone).
    TGNS Portal | NS2 side-by-side game viewer
    IronHorse wrote: »
    TG's win or lose mod that replaces the concede function is the best of both worlds and should be official.
  • RaZDaZRaZDaZ Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167331Posts: 465 Fully active user
    edited December 2015
    Concede shouldn't be allowed until 7-8 minutes in which is roughly when fades appear for most games. At that point, fades can pull back a losing game or help finish a closed out one. The majority of games before this timer aren't set in stone, sometimes its just overwhelmingly one-sided which end pretty quickly anyway but most can be won within correct play and tech.

    In the same way a spectre in dota 2 gets a radiance item, its pretty tough before then but that can bring you back or when zerg techs to ultras/cracklings in SC2. It's not specifically about adding some "epic" moment, its just stupid and not needed. The community and the playerbase needs to teach others that conceding just before you get fades, lerks, onos, shotguns, jetpacks, exos is completely stupid and people should challenge conceders about why they are conceding. It's not impossible to do this. The playerbase is fairly small anyway, attitudes and cognitive trends can persist across multiple servers without need for wacky concede scenarios.
    NS2 ID: RaZDaZ
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  • FearlessJamesFearlessJames Members Join Date: 2015-12-09 Member: 209849Posts: 88 Advanced user
    Hold up! What about something that "punishes" players for conceding too much? If you concede too many times in what ever time-frame,you'll get a point penalty for the next round you go on? That's just a mere example,but it would encourage players to NOT give up so easily,especially if the round just started,and our comm is a jerk,and after we lose ONE RES TOWER HE STARTS CUSSING AT EVERYONE TO CONCEDE-UGH......erm....sorry 'bout that little episode there......heh. :blush:
    "Humans evolve within millions of years,but I.....evolve within seconds......"
  • BensonBenson Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Posts: 1,296 Advanced user
    @FearlessJames

    I don't think punishing people for using a feature of the game is a good idea.

    There are many times where the game simply cannot be won due to skill imbalance or just pure luck, and players shouldn't be punished for these scenarios as they are frustrating enough as it is.

    Honestly, I think having the losing team die in a "player hunt" or "self destruct" scenario will help deter conceding since they actually die, rather than just see the "you lose" banner. This is obviously just guessing, but registering another guaranteed death in their stats may be enough of a deterrent :)
    If we are to be damned, let us be damned for what we really are. - Capt. Jean Luc Picard
    Nordic
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    edited December 2015
    Nordic wrote: »
    Not only would it require more coding time, it would also take months of playtesting.
    Very minimal coding time, just a few value changes. (example)
    But yea, would require playtesting like anything.
    Nordic wrote: »
    In the best case scenario you might have a game that still occasionally could use a concede function. In the worst case scenario, re balancing the game pushed away the remaining player base.
    I'd hope concede still exists, as i said previously it definitely serves a needed function, not all games can or should be salvaged.

    I sincerely doubt making early game aliens stronger (where they are arguably too weak) and making late game marine tech more available and fun would push any players away..


    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise landMembers, Reinforced - Onos Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Posts: 1,543 Advanced user
    If one team concede;
    Big logo on the screen: "Bloodshed hoo ha hooo!!! get close to an enemy!!!"

    Make every player on the loosing side explosive with a 50% HP buff.
    So one player should get close to the the other; leading to a big bloodshed. It should be fast.
    So when when a winner kills a looser; it explodes...
    Lots of blood decal everywhere.

    (i mean it's dumb enough to be fast)
    ChubbChubbs ???

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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    B250 caused a lot of players to leave even though what we have today is arguably a lot more balanced. There is almost a ns1 like nostalgia for builds before 250. If your balance suggestions are anywhere near in scope of b250 I would urge extreme caution. We have a lot more to lose now.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    RaZDaZ wrote: »
    Concede shouldn't be allowed until 7-8 minutes in which is roughly when fades appear for most games. At that point, fades can pull back a losing game or help finish a closed out one. The majority of games before this timer aren't set in stone, sometimes its just overwhelmingly one-sided which end pretty quickly anyway but most can be won within correct play and tech.

    Fades at 8 minutes seem a fairly even game and I don't think anyone should be conceding those aliens or marines. When people want to concede early, its because TEAMS ARE UNBALANCED and the other team doesn't want to commit to ending the game to ensure a safe win.

    Also, "most" and "majority" doesn't mean much. Is it closer to 51%, 75% or 99%? Regardless, games that should be conceded before 8 minutes happen often enough and limiting concede just leads to people asking for F4s. I swear, concede haters never played NS1 or NS2 before concede. The issue is not the mechanic. It is people giving up. I enjoy concede a lot more than having half my team afk/in ready room/browsing other servers. It already happens with concede and it will just get worse without it.

    I am all for making concede more "exciting" and/or reducing its need but removing it is a major step backwards.

    @IronHorse
    Why do you hate aliens so? Always marine buffs and alien nerfs with you. :/

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited December 2015
    My thoughts on a better concede are currently:
    • Should be kept short. It should take no more than a 60 seconds at most, but the shorter the better.
    • It should not be the same every concede. It should cycle through a few options.
    • Some kind of skippable animation would be played. Even better if you could turn it off in the settings.
    • Servers could toggle on or off the "fun" concede.
    • The ultimate goal of a "fun" concede should be like this. "In either case, the ultimate objective of pushing a base is reinforced with players, the winning team still gets to crush the losing team, but the losing team gets that "moral victory" of taking the enemy with them."



    So far there have been a few good ideas on what such "fun" concede endings would be.

    I like Benson "Nuclear Option" ending.
    Benson wrote: »
    I always envision concede being the "Nuclear Option"

    A countdown of like 30 seconds starts and if at least one player on the conceding team can stay alive, everything on the map dies.

    even better, make the scenario be

    Aliens:
    "the Command Center is overloading the power grid, destroy it before the complex explodes!"

    Marines:
    "The Hive is preparing to flood the air with acidic fumes, destroy it before it finishes!


    I also like the "Hunt" ending idea.

    A countdown is started for 60 seconds. The round ends in 60 seconds, or when all players will are dead. The winning team should be able to easily kill all the enemy players in less time though.

    The winning team has all tech upgraded automatically. If a structure like a prototype lab 3 shells is not built, one will be automatically placed. All players on the winning team will get 100 pres. Marines will be beaconed back to base so they can buy their tech. Aliens don't need a similar mechanic because they can evolve anywhere. All enemies are shown on the map, so no one can hide. Marines are given a permanent catpack effect.

    The losing team loses all tres, all pres, and all upgrades. Aliens get to keep their lifeforms but have no upgrades. The losing teams health decreases at a rate that they will die in 60 seconds.

    Marines:
    "The hive mind committed suicide killing all hives. Make sure no kharra are left alive."

    Aliens:
    "The TSF has decided to pull out, and they remotely destroyed all command chairs. Make sure no marines are left alive."

    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    Benson
  • MisterOizoMisterOizo Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178214Posts: 45 Fully active user
    Just make the ending Last Stand mod game...? >:)
    soccerguy243
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