Merry Gorgemas, Build 277 Returns! - Natural Selection 2

SystemSystem Join Date: 2013-01-29 Member: 182599Members, Super Administrators, Reinforced - Diamond
edited December 2015 in NS2 General Discussion

imageMerry Gorgemas, Build 277 Returns! - Natural Selection 2

First off, thank you all for your quick feedback and communications pertaining to Build 278. I guess Krampus was ready for some good ole tricks? You will notice your client...

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Comments

  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    nooooooo.... my trim tooool!!!!!
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Kasharic wrote: »
    nooooooo.... my trim tooool!!!!!

    Haha it will come back.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    /slaps Kash. shush
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Thank you for the quick solution until you get the hitreg sorted out, and I hope the hard work put into 278 by the cdt makes it into the game again sooner or later.
  • BofBof Join Date: 2013-08-19 Member: 186972Members
    Gorgemas we will never ever forget you
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited December 2015
    Technically the clients and servers are now downgrading, not updating, well updating with an older version ;)


    The work in 288 won't be forgotten though, just needs some extra cooking time...
  • VitdomVitdom Join Date: 2012-04-30 Member: 151345Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Santa is evil and devious this year.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    @WasabiOne Appreciated post. But @Hugh still owes a group of people a public apology before being retired from posting these updates.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    Well we can now be certain UWE are back in NS2 :D
  • WasabiOneWasabiOne Co-Lead NS2 CDT Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104623Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    mattji104 wrote: »
    @WasabiOne Appreciated post. But @Hugh still owes a group of people a public apology before being retired from posting these updates.

    He isn't retired from these posts and I want to make sure people understand that Build 278 was not a failure by the CDT or UWE. It was a build that had been worked on for the last month and we thought it was ready to go, but a few gnarly bugs showed up that were missed and we all thought it was better to pull it back rather than hold for a few days to make a hotfix.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    @WasabiOne

    I think that a vast majority of players actually reading any of the posts can agree on two things:

    1. The patch was unfortunate, but not anyone's fault. The right call on rollback is more than satisfactory for now. Obviously the hitreg wasn't like that in the final playtest, something happened in the build who knows.

    2. That blog post was insulting to a group of people who the community cares for far more than the author of the blog post.

    So for someone who the community doesn't like to say what he did, he should come out and say he's sorry and explain why he did it. It was clearly him panicing that he was going to be misrepresented, but he wound up representing himself in the exact severely negative way we all feel about him already.

    It's a PR mess by the PR guy. If anybody else did what he did, their PR rep would force a public apology. If he's going to be the face of Ns2 that nobody wants, he should learn to talk more frankly. It's only more insulting to the CDT that he tried to hide his blaming them and failed.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    ldhtf1B.png

    Never seen that before...

    BTW gimp is pure shit.
  • simbasimba Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151628Members
    How can you say this is not the fault of CDT or UWE? One of those two decided to push a patch. One of those two decided that the patch was ready. One of those two failed to properly QA the patch to a level that guaranteed no problems.

    It's not even a big deal that the patch had to be rolled back. What is a big deal is the lack of achnowledgement that "Hey, we fucked up". That's what companies do.
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    While people are going to disagree with this, in most cases it's "someone is at fault here", that is not necessarily 100% true here. Network changes are difficult to test, you can test something for a month, and then you'll suddenly have a bug popup. The PT team had tested 278 for over a month with network changes. Now I'm not saying that they didn't miss something, there is a chance they did, but it's not entirely their fault, network changes are just hard to test. Especially since PT numbers have been lower. I can say for sure though that if we found the mentioned bugs, we wouldn't have released, and I personally did not notice any issues during development.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    While people are going to disagree with this, in most cases it's "someone is at fault here", that is not necessarily 100% true here. Network changes are difficult to test, you can test something for a month, and then you'll suddenly have a bug popup. The PT team had tested 278 for over a month with network changes. Now I'm not saying that they didn't miss something, there is a chance they did, but it's not entirely their fault, network changes are just hard to test. Especially since PT numbers have been lower. I can say for sure though that if we found the mentioned bugs, we wouldn't have released, and I personally did not notice any issues during development.

    I'm getting major deja-vu reading this comment. Did you just copy and paste it from an earlier thread? :D
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited December 2015
    No? I had no prior influence to writing that post B)
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    2cough wrote: »
    ldhtf1B.png

    Never seen that before...

    BTW gimp is pure shit.

    This is called Steam going down. Happens all the time.
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    While people are going to disagree with this, in most cases it's "someone is at fault here", that is not necessarily 100% true here. Network changes are difficult to test, you can test something for a month, and then you'll suddenly have a bug popup. The PT team had tested 278 for over a month with network changes. Now I'm not saying that they didn't miss something, there is a chance they did, but it's not entirely their fault, network changes are just hard to test. Especially since PT numbers have been lower. I can say for sure though that if we found the mentioned bugs, we wouldn't have released, and I personally did not notice any issues during development.

    This also means that the testing methods are wrong somewhere. This Reg problem is a big issue like an elephant in the room. It is rather illogical that the PT don't see the bug before release while all remaining players see it as soon as the patch is out.

    Again, the PT should test it, not playing it. In fact doing things with proper methods and planning will save more time for everybody instead of playing the game just for playing the game as a quality test / bug fixing.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    2cough wrote: »
    ldhtf1B.png

    Never seen that before...

    BTW gimp is pure shit.

    L2MSpaint nubcaek :tongue:

    Or Paint.Net...
  • Cr4zyb4st4rdCr4zyb4st4rd United Kingdom Join Date: 2012-08-09 Member: 155200Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    While people are going to disagree with this, in most cases it's "someone is at fault here", that is not necessarily 100% true here.

    Bloody hell. Its like you're all in on a joke and left the community out. Here is the thing. SOMEONE or SOME DEV TEAM is at fault.

    Be it the CDT or 'UWE' iust admit you fucked up. Stop dragging your feet and someone accept responsibility, this is a professional company with paid developers that are acting like children avoiding the blame. "No they did it, no he did it, no we didnt do it"

    It just makes the wbole thing look like a god damned joke. Game development is difficult stuff goes wrong, but people know that, don't treat us like idiots. So admit the fuck up, apologise and move on.

    Maybe then this community will show some respect to this new dev team. However the way they get treated and information is handled and no one can accept responsibility? You're just digging a deeper and deeper hole.
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited December 2015
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    While people are going to disagree with this, in most cases it's "someone is at fault here", that is not necessarily 100% true here. Network changes are difficult to test, you can test something for a month, and then you'll suddenly have a bug popup. The PT team had tested 278 for over a month with network changes. Now I'm not saying that they didn't miss something, there is a chance they did, but it's not entirely their fault, network changes are just hard to test. Especially since PT numbers have been lower. I can say for sure though that if we found the mentioned bugs, we wouldn't have released, and I personally did not notice any issues during development.

    This also means that the testing methods are wrong somewhere. This Reg problem is a big issue like an elephant in the room. It is rather illogical that the PT don't see the bug before release while all remaining players see it as soon as the patch is out.

    Again, the PT should test it, not playing it. In fact doing things with proper methods and planning will save more time for everybody instead of playing the game just for playing the game as a quality test / bug fixing.

    I don't know how you can say we are or aren't doing something right if you aren't a playtester and don't know how playtests are ran, or what we do every playtest

    And I'm sorry you feel that way crazy, but if it makes you feel better, it's my fault for not showing up to more playtests. The one I did show up to there seemed to be no issues. If you don't believe me, that's on you. There are times where it is the PT team's fault, and times UWE's fault in the past, but after a month of testing, I don't care who does it, how it gets done, where you do it, who you play with, what server it's on, if we didn't find the bug after 2 months of testing, we weren't likely to find it after 3 months, or even 4.

    PS I'm not even on that new dev team so why would I be trying to cover for them, if anything you would think I would be trying to make them look worse :smile:
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited December 2015
    OH hey I just noticed something, Babblers are way more awesome than Reindeer!

    9 Reindeers vs 7 Babblers, take that Dasher, Dancer, Prancer, Vixen, Comet, Cupid, Donner, Blitzen and Rudolph!!!


    We should name SantaGorge's Babblers!
  • Saffron_bakerSaffron_baker Sweden Join Date: 2015-06-09 Member: 205352Members
    So when do you think patch 278 will return debugged?
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Well obviously 278 is cursed... 279 summoning ritual will now commence!
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos

    I like the irony. In the mean time you describe it as a 'edge case scenario'. Such a thing would be something happening only to specific people, in specific condition / situation. I think we can agree on that.

    When a majority (for what's left of us) :
    • see it like the nose on the face as soon as it is updated,
    • feel compelled to post about it in this forum (they may not be the one who often post) and ask to revert back to the previous build (never seen before),
    • AND the devs DO SO practically right away.
    I'm afraid to say it is NOT an edge case scenario.

    From my personal experience, I only used b278 for testing my map with robots. I did noticed something was wrong but couldn't confirm that; as the robots aren't real persons. But you get used to the robots and you know how they should behave even if they changed lately. My first thoughts about it were: 'i hope nothing is broken', 'What to expect? we'll see saturday".

    Back on the topic:
    • December 3 : B278 is out.
    • December 4 : B277 is back.
    Sooo this elephant did hide for months during the tests (40 persons = 20% players base) and couldn't be spotted, while it took only 1 day (or less) for the whole community (as players) to see it.

    Do you really think anybody can believe that ? I'm afraid to say i don't. Nice try by the way.

    IronHorse wrote: »
    It's easy to say "Well if something slipped past you guys then you messed up" .. because well technically it's true.
    I'm not blaming any particular individual. I'm saying devs should start to have better protocols to ensure the game moves forward. Every single build had its problems. I understand quite clearly that modifying a system (code, map etc) always is accompanied by 'surprises'. But understand that NS2 is full of big surprises all along the story. I can't find a game that had that kind of problem magnitude before. It's a clear sign. Did the PT even tested this build ? A question that can be asked after all.

    So when I hear that there is a monthly update. I'm not quite confident on the game future regarding the topic at hand and the long list of events before it. Maybe NOT every month would be safer.
    IronHorse wrote: »
    In the case of 278, some 40 individuals did not notice any difference in hitreg, save for one PT who mentioned it once, and was told it must've been a fluke because none of us noticed anything for months.
    if no one notice anything maybe they're not fit for the task at hand. Or maybe they have config that can't help them find that kind of bug (which is still hard to swallow even if I try to make it look better). Meaning they aren't related to the regular players anymore. Maybe they should reset their NS2 installation and use it more like regular people...



    I did apply for PT one day. I had time at the moment. But soon after I had some info from the inside. Even if somebody would ask me to enroll : thank you but no thank you. I don't want to loose my time with fanboys who only want to see the latest development of the game before anyone else. Or people full of themselves. I think I was right considering the result we see now.


    All this is included in the usual PT tactic. It's not me, it's not us, it's nobody's fault, nobody could see it, there's no problem etc... All this look pathetic to say the least. Because we see all officials and CDT included trying to extinguish the fires all other the place. Not to mention the internal disputes brought to light lately.

    One can really be concerned with what the future will reveal. If UWE decide to be back at developing the game in hope of getting more players (old and new), this means change. But ultimately it raises many more questions than answers, I'm afraid.


  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    if no one notice anything maybe they're not fit for the task at hand.
    You're still not understanding what I am saying.

    I have been collecting, documenting and reporting various hit reg issues for the better part of a year now and can spot / reproduce them on demand.
    As a result I now see them more than most players I know. There is no issue with being "fit for the task". Like I said the moment I joined a public server on the live build I immediately could tell the difference.

    The heightened degree of issues were not present in our testing. Again... even after we knew there was a problem, reproducing those symptoms required certain individuals because it is not present on everyone, and it is not present in every network condition.

    You can test this yourself - 278 is still on the Beta branch, fire up a vanilla server and fill it with at least 12. You'll notice you can reproduce it on some people but not others. Latency and packet loss seem to impact it in some way, but from our testing I can tell you that high latency vs high latency, or low vs low makes no difference. Conversely, high versus low will show NO ISSUES for the high latency player, but the low latency player will experience them.

    That's what we call edge case, something that is not apparent through our previously typical means of testing.
    Again... as a result we've adjusted our testing procedures to try to account for future bugs that may be reproduced the same way. So yes, again, it is true that we messed up and this slipped by.. I have no qualms with blame being taken (I dont think anyone does?) but it was a new parameter for us to account for that we've never had to before!

    If you have magic powers and can predict every single future parameter and scenario that should be tested- while still completing everything in a reasonable time - please by all means, we would love to have a psychic on board our team, it would save us a lot of head aches ;)



    As for the rest of your post, you just seem like you're looking to incite.
    I've explained everything twice now, so unless you have something to say other than insulting those who give their free time to improve something that you enjoy, I am done with this conversation and will ask that if you wish to resume it we can do so in private messages. Thanks
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    @IronHorse could it have anything to do with the changes to hydras and macs getting damage?
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