The vote balance system is not working. As has been said, people can change the team after a vote - what makes the vote redundant. And the vote is just working if enough people with the same skill range are on a server. (And then you most likely don't need a vote.) As soon as one very high skilled person joins, the system teams that person up with less skilled persons and puts the medium players on the other team. That results in a nice and balanced team skill number, but in the end the teams are very unbalanced. Especially if that high skill player goes commander or if that person joins the other team, because - big surprise - he/she doesn't want to play with "skill-less" people all day long.
why oh why is it a strict average team balance?
couldn't they refactor it so that the current server average is taken, and the teams are balanced around weighting around that.
like if the server average is something like 1000, an you've got a 2000, and a couple green players, with the rest falling between.
the further you get from 1000, the less your score gets added to the team average.
change the weighting until it gives you something you like.
like, is a 2000 player worth 2 1000 players? or more like 1.5?
why does it seem like the system is just going
"oh um... that 2500 player is worth... ummmm 2.5 average players?
let's put him with 2 parapalegic coma patients against 3 regular players. that's an even and balanced game."
For ~1700 and above hive skill valued players, all you really see is double down arrows on every server. @amoral, it looks like the quickjoin button tries to assign players based on skill.
The vote balance system is not working. As has been said, people can change the team after a vote - what makes the vote redundant. And the vote is just working if enough people with the same skill range are on a server. (And then you most likely don't need a vote.) As soon as one very high skilled person joins, the system teams that person up with less skilled persons and puts the medium players on the other team. That results in a nice and balanced team skill number, but in the end the teams are very unbalanced. Especially if that high skill player goes commander or if that person joins the other team, because - big surprise - he/she doesn't want to play with "skill-less" people all day long.
why oh why is it a strict average team balance?
couldn't they refactor it so that the current server average is taken, and the teams are balanced around weighting around that.
like if the server average is something like 1000, an you've got a 2000, and a couple green players, with the rest falling between.
the further you get from 1000, the less your score gets added to the team average.
change the weighting until it gives you something you like.
like, is a 2000 player worth 2 1000 players? or more like 1.5?
why does it seem like the system is just going
"oh um... that 2500 player is worth... ummmm 2.5 average players?
let's put him with 2 parapalegic coma patients against 3 regular players. that's an even and balanced game."
why does it feel like that's how it works now?
I'm not really following what you are suggesting, but a 2500 player is worth like 8 1000s, or at least 3 coma patients. If you have one really good player, a com who knows the fundamentals, and at least 2-3 guys who can build and kill the one skulk attacking the phase gate, you are pretty much set against an "average" team.
Aliens are harder to carry though. Usually the hero player is a really good fade, but in order to carry the team he has to actually get to fade first, by which time the marines will probably have significant money and territory. A good marine can shut down the alien team from the first minute.
There is also the "problem" that people are weighted against the players they fight. That means if you always play on the same two servers, your rank symbolises the ability to win or lose against a small pool of players. If you change the server suddenly, your rank is losing significance.
If you don't force all players to fight and rank up in a global scenario (and I am happy about that, cause server communities beat matchmaking any time), then you just get a localized ranking number that means nothing in another weight system aka another server. The ranking and matchmaking system in ns2 is not working, because you don't have enough players and because the players are not weighted correctly, nor placed correctly in balanced teams due to several reasons (no seperated rank for alien and rine skill, doesn't consider who is going comm, doesn't consider team composition - only composed team skill number, or team switches etc.).
There is also the "problem" that people are weighted against the players they fight. That means if you always play on the same two servers, your rank symbolises the ability to win or lose against a small pool of players. If you change the server suddenly, your rank is losing significance.
If you don't force all players to fight and rank up in a global scenario (and I am happy about that, cause server communities beat matchmaking any time), then you just get a localized ranking number that means nothing in another weight system aka another server. The ranking and matchmaking system in ns2 is not working, because you don't have enough players and because the players are not weighted correctly, nor placed correctly in balanced teams due to several reasons (no seperated rank for alien and rine skill, doesn't consider who is going comm, doesn't consider team composition - only composed team skill number, or team switches etc.).
So what is your suggestion? One possibility would be to say, we can't get a good skill value anyway, so lets just use playtime as the skill value. I'm not convinced thats better though.
The vote balance system is not working. As has been said, people can change the team after a vote - what makes the vote redundant. And the vote is just working if enough people with the same skill range are on a server. (And then you most likely don't need a vote.) As soon as one very high skilled person joins, the system teams that person up with less skilled persons and puts the medium players on the other team. That results in a nice and balanced team skill number, but in the end the teams are very unbalanced. Especially if that high skill player goes commander or if that person joins the other team, because - big surprise - he/she doesn't want to play with "skill-less" people all day long.
why oh why is it a strict average team balance?
couldn't they refactor it so that the current server average is taken, and the teams are balanced around weighting around that.
like if the server average is something like 1000, an you've got a 2000, and a couple green players, with the rest falling between.
the further you get from 1000, the less your score gets added to the team average.
change the weighting until it gives you something you like.
like, is a 2000 player worth 2 1000 players? or more like 1.5?
why does it seem like the system is just going
"oh um... that 2500 player is worth... ummmm 2.5 average players?
let's put him with 2 parapalegic coma patients against 3 regular players. that's an even and balanced game."
why does it feel like that's how it works now?
I'm not really following what you are suggesting, but a 2500 player is worth like 8 1000s, or at least 3 coma patients. If you have one really good player, a com who knows the fundamentals, and at least 2-3 guys who can build and kill the one skulk attacking the phase gate, you are pretty much set against an "average" team.
Aliens are harder to carry though. Usually the hero player is a really good fade, but in order to carry the team he has to actually get to fade first, by which time the marines will probably have significant money and territory. A good marine can shut down the alien team from the first minute.
Idk what game you're playing where it's easier to carry marines. That requires a medpack.
There is also the "problem" that people are weighted against the players they fight. That means if you always play on the same two servers, your rank symbolises the ability to win or lose against a small pool of players. If you change the server suddenly, your rank is losing significance.
If you don't force all players to fight and rank up in a global scenario (and I am happy about that, cause server communities beat matchmaking any time), then you just get a localized ranking number that means nothing in another weight system aka another server. The ranking and matchmaking system in ns2 is not working, because you don't have enough players and because the players are not weighted correctly, nor placed correctly in balanced teams due to several reasons (no seperated rank for alien and rine skill, doesn't consider who is going comm, doesn't consider team composition - only composed team skill number, or team switches etc.).
So what is your suggestion? One possibility would be to say, we can't get a good skill value anyway, so lets just use playtime as the skill value. I'm not convinced thats better though.
I mean he's definitely right. I have 2600, but I went from 1000-->2600 on the 350+ captain servers and gathers, almost exclusively. Been suggesting a server only hive score on top of the regular one. I think it'd be easily trackable but who knows. My scores definitely not representative of other servers.
There is also the "problem" that people are weighted against the players they fight. That means if you always play on the same two servers, your rank symbolises the ability to win or lose against a small pool of players. If you change the server suddenly, your rank is losing significance.
If you don't force all players to fight and rank up in a global scenario (and I am happy about that, cause server communities beat matchmaking any time), then you just get a localized ranking number that means nothing in another weight system aka another server. The ranking and matchmaking system in ns2 is not working, because you don't have enough players and because the players are not weighted correctly, nor placed correctly in balanced teams due to several reasons (no seperated rank for alien and rine skill, doesn't consider who is going comm, doesn't consider team composition - only composed team skill number, or team switches etc.).
So what is your suggestion? One possibility would be to say, we can't get a good skill value anyway, so lets just use playtime as the skill value. I'm not convinced thats better though.
Correct, that won't work as there is no direct correlation between playtime and skill.
There is also the "problem" that people are weighted against the players they fight. That means if you always play on the same two servers, your rank symbolises the ability to win or lose against a small pool of players. If you change the server suddenly, your rank is losing significance.
If you don't force all players to fight and rank up in a global scenario (and I am happy about that, cause server communities beat matchmaking any time), then you just get a localized ranking number that means nothing in another weight system aka another server. The ranking and matchmaking system in ns2 is not working, because you don't have enough players and because the players are not weighted correctly, nor placed correctly in balanced teams due to several reasons (no separated rank for alien and rine skill, doesn't consider who is going comm, doesn't consider team composition - only composed team skill number, or team switches etc.).
I agree that hive scores are relativistic, but I do not think they are entirely uncomparable. 3000 > 2500 > 2000 > 1500 > 1000
As long as there is some mixing, maybe 20% of the people each player regularly plays with, then it should be pretty close.
I have a hive score of ~2000. If I go onto the NA captains server, my hive score is a bit inflated relative to those players, but still comparable. I would guesstimate if I played there regularly my hive score would fall to about ~1800. If a captain chooses me for my hiveskill, will they be disappointed? Maybe, but they wont' get some rookie who can't do anything.
The problem with relative hive scores is when you have a premier level ns2 player with a ~1200 hive score. To my knowledge, a lot of comp players have entirely uncomparable hive scores like that.
Separating hive scores for alien and marine is one thing Moultano has said he would do.
So what is your suggestion? One possibility would be to say, we can't get a good skill value anyway, so lets just use playtime as the skill value. I'm not convinced thats better though.
I afraid everyone thinks in absolute while it shouldn't be.
The ELO skill system is a bad implementation as it give a personal score based on the team results. Results isn't performances. You can't perform close to flawlessly but ultimately loose the game.
I just lost last Week End 200 points by being stacked with the wrong team. From +2K to +1800 (more or less). I play only on the week end. Even if I wanted I'll never get back to the previous number unless I win all games for at least 5 times the time it took to loose it. My aim didn't change, I'm the same cunning bastard skulk. The careless/pusher Marine is still me, etc...
It seriously need to be based on anything than a lottery number. Rookies with 1000 are the same as rookies starting at 0... Wait... oh yes it's really like that. It's going to a point you don't know if a "500 player" started from 0 and win it all, or started from 1K and lost all games.
I suggested weeks ago a mix between several great perimeters.
Aim and K/D. This tells a lot about the player ability to make something out of what he has. It can be 2 scores for helping the balance. You still can be a good marine and a crappy skulk.
Build and weld. Eventually the time passed as a Lifeform (offensive/defensive). This tells a lot about a player. Rush+shoot or moderate (build and defend). The distance from critical structures like PG/hive when the kill occurs gives clues about how the player level of care. But this last one, I'm not sure if it's already possible (calculation on distances) but it won't take huge wall of code to get it i think. One vector (PG-marine)... Also cover/assist, structure destroyed etc. There are many things recorded in there.
Knowledge of maps. It would require some more development to track where the player went (especially vents etc.), and some special entities but nothing impossible. Let's say it's not possible and we replace it with Steam hours. I doubt that a 2000hrs player is clueless about navigation. Of course customs and new maps are getting in, but again i doubt that this kind of player wouldn't explore on its own the map to find his way around easier the next online game he gets into.
This 'perimeters' are clearly providing a strong base. Nothing prevent to add in the 'mixture' the team results.
Some will say there is a endless debate on how we give a weight to one of the 4 previous numbers. I say it's the wrong question. You need all of them and the perfect mix between all is usually the key to success and a good game. And BTW why there should be only one number/bar/pie chart share in the first place ?
Alien (at least more often in public games) need a decent gorge and people defending it when needed. Marine needs a defender and not only pistoleros that play like pest control agents. I won so many game by just taking care of the PGs while the others (clearly under 2k) did push. It's organization and not K/D or whatever team results ratio you can imagine.
This at least allow to see if you have enough pistoleros as other roles before the game starts. Fade, Lerk name it. This would help. I don't mind having 3 total rookie in my team as long as the other team have the same. Same goes for NS gods...
And i don't think it would "jail" someone into only one role as you will one day or another change for something else. Playing the same over and over would bore anyone (with a normal constitution). Also the greatest players would be good at everything (All bars at top). Lets tickle a little the ELO... wait... ego? elo?...No definitely ego.
Let's get back to realitieszzzs.
PS: i deliberately keep the commander skill aside for the sake of simplicity but thought about it.
I am not sure if this systems does this already but it would be great if people were also judged by the side they are playing on. I know a lot of good aliens who are bad as marines but they have crazy high scores. They are then shuffled to marine and are not able to perform according to the score.
Its just a minor thing I believe but I dont know if this was mentioned already.
I am not sure if this systems does this already but it would be great if people were also judged by the side they are playing on. I know a lot of good aliens who are bad as marines but they have crazy high scores. They are then shuffled to marine and are not able to perform according to the score.
Its just a minor thing I believe but I dont know if this was mentioned already.
It does not do it already, but I did just say Moultano was going to do that.
Comments
why oh why is it a strict average team balance?
couldn't they refactor it so that the current server average is taken, and the teams are balanced around weighting around that.
like if the server average is something like 1000, an you've got a 2000, and a couple green players, with the rest falling between.
the further you get from 1000, the less your score gets added to the team average.
change the weighting until it gives you something you like.
like, is a 2000 player worth 2 1000 players? or more like 1.5?
why does it seem like the system is just going
"oh um... that 2500 player is worth... ummmm 2.5 average players?
let's put him with 2 parapalegic coma patients against 3 regular players. that's an even and balanced game."
why does it feel like that's how it works now?
I'm not really following what you are suggesting, but a 2500 player is worth like 8 1000s, or at least 3 coma patients. If you have one really good player, a com who knows the fundamentals, and at least 2-3 guys who can build and kill the one skulk attacking the phase gate, you are pretty much set against an "average" team.
Aliens are harder to carry though. Usually the hero player is a really good fade, but in order to carry the team he has to actually get to fade first, by which time the marines will probably have significant money and territory. A good marine can shut down the alien team from the first minute.
If you don't force all players to fight and rank up in a global scenario (and I am happy about that, cause server communities beat matchmaking any time), then you just get a localized ranking number that means nothing in another weight system aka another server. The ranking and matchmaking system in ns2 is not working, because you don't have enough players and because the players are not weighted correctly, nor placed correctly in balanced teams due to several reasons (no seperated rank for alien and rine skill, doesn't consider who is going comm, doesn't consider team composition - only composed team skill number, or team switches etc.).
So what is your suggestion? One possibility would be to say, we can't get a good skill value anyway, so lets just use playtime as the skill value. I'm not convinced thats better though.
Idk what game you're playing where it's easier to carry marines. That requires a medpack.
I mean he's definitely right. I have 2600, but I went from 1000-->2600 on the 350+ captain servers and gathers, almost exclusively. Been suggesting a server only hive score on top of the regular one. I think it'd be easily trackable but who knows. My scores definitely not representative of other servers.
Correct, that won't work as there is no direct correlation between playtime and skill.
Heavily moderate all servers.
As long as there is some mixing, maybe 20% of the people each player regularly plays with, then it should be pretty close.
I have a hive score of ~2000. If I go onto the NA captains server, my hive score is a bit inflated relative to those players, but still comparable. I would guesstimate if I played there regularly my hive score would fall to about ~1800. If a captain chooses me for my hiveskill, will they be disappointed? Maybe, but they wont' get some rookie who can't do anything.
The problem with relative hive scores is when you have a premier level ns2 player with a ~1200 hive score. To my knowledge, a lot of comp players have entirely uncomparable hive scores like that.
Separating hive scores for alien and marine is one thing Moultano has said he would do.
I afraid everyone thinks in absolute while it shouldn't be.
The ELO skill system is a bad implementation as it give a personal score based on the team results. Results isn't performances. You can't perform close to flawlessly but ultimately loose the game.
I just lost last Week End 200 points by being stacked with the wrong team. From +2K to +1800 (more or less). I play only on the week end. Even if I wanted I'll never get back to the previous number unless I win all games for at least 5 times the time it took to loose it. My aim didn't change, I'm the same cunning bastard skulk. The careless/pusher Marine is still me, etc...
It seriously need to be based on anything than a lottery number. Rookies with 1000 are the same as rookies starting at 0... Wait... oh yes it's really like that. It's going to a point you don't know if a "500 player" started from 0 and win it all, or started from 1K and lost all games.
I suggested weeks ago a mix between several great perimeters.
This 'perimeters' are clearly providing a strong base. Nothing prevent to add in the 'mixture' the team results.
Some will say there is a endless debate on how we give a weight to one of the 4 previous numbers. I say it's the wrong question. You need all of them and the perfect mix between all is usually the key to success and a good game. And BTW why there should be only one number/bar/pie chart share in the first place ?
Alien (at least more often in public games) need a decent gorge and people defending it when needed. Marine needs a defender and not only pistoleros that play like pest control agents. I won so many game by just taking care of the PGs while the others (clearly under 2k) did push. It's organization and not K/D or whatever team results ratio you can imagine.
This at least allow to see if you have enough pistoleros as other roles before the game starts. Fade, Lerk name it. This would help. I don't mind having 3 total rookie in my team as long as the other team have the same. Same goes for NS gods...
And i don't think it would "jail" someone into only one role as you will one day or another change for something else. Playing the same over and over would bore anyone (with a normal constitution). Also the greatest players would be good at everything (All bars at top). Lets tickle a little the ELO... wait... ego? elo?...No definitely ego.
Let's get back to realitieszzzs.
PS: i deliberately keep the commander skill aside for the sake of simplicity but thought about it.
Its just a minor thing I believe but I dont know if this was mentioned already.