Should there be a hardcap on Observatories?

heopheopheopheop asd Join Date: 2015-08-11 Member: 207026Members
edited August 2015 in NS2 General Discussion
Late game, when Aliens are cornered (GL spam, exo's etc.) practically their only option is the sneak a tunnel by and rush a base with gorges to either kill that base or distract the marines from the front and take out those forward bases. However, once in a while, a smart Marine Commander comes along and places observatories down everywhere (for only 10 res a pop) and shuts down any sneaking by.

This is smart of the Commander, but it gives the Aliens zero incentive to play on as there is nothing they can do at all and mostly these games end in a premature concede. Should there be a hardcap on obs (maybe 2 per CC or X amount per map), to give Aliens a fighting chance late game when cornered?

Comments

  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Since when are obs 10 res? Last time I checked it was 15 for the obs, 10 for PG research.

    Either way, if the marine team has enough res AND enough time to get all the upgrades, and then cover the map in observatories, your optimum chance for a lone sneaky GT comeback has long passed.

    A comeback in this situation would be well-deserved, for surely it would require the coordination of skulks biting obs down to make blind spots for gorgie to get through, or at the very least parasiting all the obs so the blind spots are evident on the map. Its quite possible to pull this off (ignoring the fact your team has been outplayed to the point where they're stuckered in base).

    If you're going to declare a hard cap on observatories, may as well hard cap crags, shifts etc. "How are marines meant to comeback when the entire alien team has fully upgraded onosseseses and cloaked heal/energy/whipdeath stations at every corner?" The answer is, they're not meant to comeback from that. Which makes it all the more impressive when it does happen.

    A further point- obs or no obs, a bad team will miss stray aliens; a good marine team will make life very hard for the stray aliens, but they are by no means unbeatable.
  • unrenderedunrendered Finland Join Date: 2013-11-07 Member: 189137Members, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter
  • SupaFredSupaFred Join Date: 2013-03-03 Member: 183652Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Since when are obs 10 res? Last time I checked it was 15 for the obs, 10 for PG research.

    It's been 10 for both for as long as I can remember. Apart from that I agree with you.
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    Hmmm.

    Better make an incentive for the marines to build a second base. It may help the Aliens delay some specific upgrades on the Marine side. Actually there is close to no incentive on that.

    It's equivalent to create obs everywhere (price).

    I often (if not always) see myself (as commander) not able to build a 2nd base. Usually it's already too late for the aliens. I still do like to have a backup. Especially when the Marines I have are god like aim but not really the smartest guys in the room.

    Also :
    • It would eventually make the aliens less eager to Tunnel/base rush. Marines rant about it.
    • It would eventually make the marines more careful and play smarter. Like "care for all the bases" instead of only look behind (when they do) to avoid being "tricked" by a tunnel.
    • It would probably allow to play larger games (more slots) without changing much. Right now more player with good Marines means a colonoscopy with a shotgun for the aliens.

  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited August 2015
    Wheeee wrote: »
    letting the marines get obs all over the map + cornered in own base = time for the concede

    Don't think so. Time for wasting 10 minutes+ playing a depressing loss because someone on the alien team hopes that some pubnub is in the com chair and won't see a rush, or for some miraculous comeback. Over and over and over.

    Because "dude, I've come back from worse than this."
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    Wheeee wrote: »
    letting the marines get obs all over the map + cornered in own base = time for the concede

    Yeah it's not nearly as fun to turtle as aliens than it is with marines.
  • LamboLambo Iceland Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154915Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Pretty sure you're past your chance of victory at that point.
  • MaxAmusMaxAmus UK Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24779Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    There is a cap on how many both teams can build, but if its at a point in the game where marines have the entire map, 2nd CC and Multi obs about. Then it maybe time to concede or just try and all in rush to at least take back some of the map
  • HoeloeHoeloe Switzerland Join Date: 2014-03-02 Member: 194487Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    To be honest, never saw randomly placed observatories survive longer than some minutes when there is no marine to defend it. Sure there are observatories placed at the forwardbases, but normaly you should find a way around. I also see alot of "stacked" games finished by a counterrush cause marines didn't pay attention. And if the battle starts to stagnite because of even teams then it's even cooler that there is no easy way to finish the game.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    MaxAmus wrote: »
    There is a cap on how many both teams can build, but if its at a point in the game where marines have the entire map, 2nd CC and Multi obs about. Then it maybe time to concede or just try and all in rush to at least take back some of the map

    Observatories aren't on the unit cap for marines. Armories, Factories, Macs, Arcs, and Sentries/batteries are, but not obs.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited August 2015
    Im sure the thread opener is playing on wooza most of the time.
    What he describes is the only chance for aliens to win there in 80% of the games:
    "Sneaky tunnel near base, 14 gorges into the base and its gg"

    Looks like the coms there have react to this, congrats.

    And btw, no matter on what server:
    The situation you described is just gg, marines win.
    Aliens didnt deserve to win only by placing lucky tunnels again and again.

    To answer your question:
    NO

    @sotanaht
    Thats not true, the is a global number wich indicates the max ammount of structures, obs incl.
    If you reach this number and its red, you cant build structures anymore.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    He is not wrong. The obs and arms labs do not count towards the 200 structure limit.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Is that by design or an overlooked bug? Seems like poor design if it's on purpose.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Wheeee wrote: »
    Is that by design or an overlooked bug? Seems like poor design if it's on purpose.

    I personally like it. I have had times, not many, that I have hit 200 res as marines. You can argue all you want, that you should never be in that scenario, but I have been before. I have built extra obs and arms labs, just to bank res. Then recycle them when I need to. I have only seen this happen in crazy long stale mate games.

    It honestly has always bothered me that aliens don't have something equivalent. When you get to that res cap, your just at that res cap and can't do anything about it. At least it is asymmetric.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    Nordic wrote: »
    Wheeee wrote: »
    Is that by design or an overlooked bug? Seems like poor design if it's on purpose.

    I personally like it. I have had times, not many, that I have hit 200 res as marines. You can argue all you want, that you should never be in that scenario, but I have been before. I have built extra obs and arms labs, just to bank res. Then recycle them when I need to. I have only seen this happen in crazy long stale mate games.

    It honestly has always bothered me that aliens don't have something equivalent. When you get to that res cap, your just at that res cap and can't do anything about it. At least it is asymmetric.

    Drop weapons, drop lifeform eggs, do something remotely useful. I have a hard time believing you could sit at 200 when all the marines have every weapon they need/want, jetpacks, med/ammo/catpack support, arcs/macs where appropriate, and you STILL haven't won yet.
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members
    wooza's does seem to just build obs, and i'm not terribly sure why. maybe because marines don't call stuff out?
  • LamboLambo Iceland Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154915Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    amoral wrote: »
    wooza's does seem to just build obs, and i'm not terribly sure why. maybe because marines don't call stuff out?
    or because it's 24vs24...
  • RaZDaZRaZDaZ Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167331Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2015
    Not really needed. If you're team has the coordination, you can just get 3 gorges together and push a base, usually you can trade and get more out of that trade as the 3 gorges. Unless there's an exo at the front, most marines can't even hit a gorge anyway so np.

    If you got into that position to begin with, you should lose. It meant your fades and onos didn't do their job properly but gorges are gorges on higher pop servers.
  • woozawooza Switzerland Join Date: 2013-11-21 Member: 189496Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited August 2015
    I personally rarely use any obs, maybe in midgame / lategame when there is enough of res to waste. The reason why i dont use obs is that i also rarely use phasegates. With phasegates marines getting lazy, overlook rooms for potential rushes and don't defend rt's as much as they would without. Marines simply beginn to lose the mapcontrol. There is alot of tears and eject votes when i command


    edit:
    Lamb wrote: »
    amoral wrote: »
    wooza's does seem to just build obs, and i'm not terribly sure why. maybe because marines don't call stuff out?
    or because it's 24vs24...

    it's 21vs21
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    RaZDaZ wrote: »
    Not really needed. If you're team has the coordination, you can just get 3 gorges together and push a base, usually you can trade and get more out of that trade as the 3 gorges. Unless there's an exo at the front, most marines can't even hit a gorge anyway so np.

    If you got into that position to begin with, you should lose. It meant your fades and onos didn't do their job properly but gorges are gorges on higher pop servers.

    Correct, the amount of times I've gathered 2 like minded skilled gorges to do a rush with me is innumerable, the amount of times we've changed the outcome of a "certain" loss is laughable at best!
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    RaZDaZ wrote: »
    Not really needed. If you're team has the coordination, you can just get 3 gorges together and push a base, usually you can trade and get more out of that trade as the 3 gorges. Unless there's an exo at the front, most marines can't even hit a gorge anyway so np.

    If you got into that position to begin with, you should lose. It meant your fades and onos didn't do their job properly but gorges are gorges on higher pop servers.

    Correct, the amount of times I've gathered 2 like minded skilled gorges to do a rush with me is innumerable, the amount of times we've changed the outcome of a "certain" loss is laughable at best!

    Gorge rush ftw!
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