Here we go again! [Siege Update]
KKyle
Michigan Join Date: 2005-07-01 Member: 55067Members
Michigan Join Date: 2005-07-01 Member: 55067Members
So, this time. It's not IBIS. But DMD. Well, if that's the way it's gonna be then. Then I'm no longer collaborating. The state of siege as it is is hereby dangling between that of two people and two people only. Myself and Rusty. Some may state that I stole from others and placed into siege. That's fine argument, I can't deny it. It's the truth. But for anyone aside from myself, IT's a little hard to explain that's apart of the process. You may use this fact against me, but once again, I cannot deny it.
Siege contains X and Y for it to work. That's the truth. Without the X and Y, there's no Z. However, as of 9 months I do not have said skill to originally write Z., I cannot play Jimi Hendrix just by wanting to. You see, my approach to Siege is that of music. I first begin by covering my favorites, by playing it note for note, and slowly over time learning the formula that makes the song the song. How it works, what makes it tick. Why it's so great.
That's the process I am using. If you want to use the argument that I steal from other mods, and therefore you can steal Siege, just listen a little more, okay? First of all it's not like that. Every single day and every single night for the past nine months I have been working on this mod, and on the maps that make it what it is. And not to float my own ego, but it's what it is because of myself and MCG for giving me complete creative freedom with this.
And it works. And it only works because the process is unravling. My desired lifespan of Siege is 2 years, and it's only at 9 months. By the end of the two years, I'd like all 100% entirely original writings not stolen from but inspired by. So if DMD wants to have this whole debate start off because I steal mods from others and place them into siege (which by the way is a better approach than running 50 mods entirely), then so be it. I can live with siege dying at 9 months in.
But if these two men want to continue to bicker and fight over eachother and not focus on what the intended goal of the project is, which only I know, and continue allowing myself full creative control, then all the players will be more appreciative. Siege will continue to grow this way.
So I'm going away from June 25th - July 15th, and I fully expect either A) MCG to go down because of CDT publishing the next update which breaks siege.
MCG going down because im out of town and cant manage it. C) DMD continues to thrive and mis-represent the potential that is siege, and continue to give players a bad idea as to what siege is and can be. All of which I'm okay with.
So I guess a TL;DR statement is this: Here we go again.
Siege contains X and Y for it to work. That's the truth. Without the X and Y, there's no Z. However, as of 9 months I do not have said skill to originally write Z., I cannot play Jimi Hendrix just by wanting to. You see, my approach to Siege is that of music. I first begin by covering my favorites, by playing it note for note, and slowly over time learning the formula that makes the song the song. How it works, what makes it tick. Why it's so great.
That's the process I am using. If you want to use the argument that I steal from other mods, and therefore you can steal Siege, just listen a little more, okay? First of all it's not like that. Every single day and every single night for the past nine months I have been working on this mod, and on the maps that make it what it is. And not to float my own ego, but it's what it is because of myself and MCG for giving me complete creative freedom with this.
And it works. And it only works because the process is unravling. My desired lifespan of Siege is 2 years, and it's only at 9 months. By the end of the two years, I'd like all 100% entirely original writings not stolen from but inspired by. So if DMD wants to have this whole debate start off because I steal mods from others and place them into siege (which by the way is a better approach than running 50 mods entirely), then so be it. I can live with siege dying at 9 months in.
But if these two men want to continue to bicker and fight over eachother and not focus on what the intended goal of the project is, which only I know, and continue allowing myself full creative control, then all the players will be more appreciative. Siege will continue to grow this way.
So I'm going away from June 25th - July 15th, and I fully expect either A) MCG to go down because of CDT publishing the next update which breaks siege.
MCG going down because im out of town and cant manage it. C) DMD continues to thrive and mis-represent the potential that is siege, and continue to give players a bad idea as to what siege is and can be. All of which I'm okay with.So I guess a TL;DR statement is this: Here we go again.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
For those who dis-believe me or feel to prove otherwise.. Time will tell. As I am hereby letting go up until July 15th. So by then lets see who's right or wrong. The guy who made Siege successful in ns2 for 9 months straight or some blokes who have no idea what they're talking about.
Thanks.
This is it then as far as forum posts, flawed or not. Make up your own meaning. Emailing myself copies just incase CDT or whoever decides to delete this for whatever reason.
I am wondering why none else can fine-tune a server as everything in both ns2 and mods is written in lua. They can just see what it does and finetune accordingly.
As for the whole other wall of text. I understand you reasoning but it does not make the end result correct.
You stealing does not grant others to steal from you, true.. But at the end of the day will others care if you yourself also steal?
just my 2 cents, personally dont give a damn if siege survives or not.
DMD runs a classic server which was requiring new maps. Kyle and I spoke and decided to collaborate on making new maps as we both enjoy classic mod. I'd help with the balancing changes, and he'd import the map (Thank you BeigeAlert!) and do the wiring.
What you may not know is Classic mod is written by Dragon. Dragon spent 1000’s of hours writing this. This is the base for Siege
Using Classic mod, Kyle and myself completed Hera and Kyle did an excellent job in wiring the weldable doors, elevators, and other entities. He got used to the idea of collaborating. Shortly after I put up a siege server. Kyle gave me the json files that I needed to run the credits system, and everything was ok. He would snap at me on occasion if I asked him to make a change. He would then apologize afterwards.
I feel that Kyle is overworked and that's because of his obsession with Siege. I sent him a donation for a few pizzas and to get some guitar strings after he told me how stressed he was. I told him I'd start texturing the next map ( ns_nancy ) which is where I'm at now- and he could take time away.
Today I noticed five people on my siege server. A few minutes later- the map changed and they were gone. I connected to my server and noticed Siegemod had been updated. As soon as I hit the DMD readyroom, I was redirected to the MCG Siege server. I felt badly treated by this, and wondered why all the modders that helped him would sanction this.
Kyle never once told me this would be happening.
My Fork ...
So I was already aware that the core features of siege are actually provided by code of two other mods. EEM and NS2 Classic. Neither of these were written by Kyle.
After getting permission from those two mod authors to reuse their code in my siege fork; I started to recreate siege.
The goal was not to just plainly copy siege over but to provide a cleanly written and powerful siege mod without limitations of usage and have it freely available for everyone to take part in it’s development process.
Furthermore I intend to replace every bit of Kyle’s code in my feature. I did however publish the mod already as a “private fork” so people who liked to play Siege on my server can continue to play and avoid any downtime.
The private fork in which is published has been cleaned up. I still have some code to completed, however I have already removed all mods from other authors( e.g. Badges+ and Modular Exo's), which were included beside EEM and Dragons source code.
I am going to continue development of both. NS1 map remakes (to scale), and Siege. I do ask you for your support, and I’ve got a Public Trello board put up to address issues and take feature requests.
For me the NS Community was always about gaining and sharing. And I'm doing my part in sharing my vision of siege with everyone else. I am hoping this sparks a new flame of creativity inside this community. In the end, the Fork is not about Kyle. It's about giving people a vision of siege and opening it up to everyone!
https://trello.com/b/z6AYSOpe/siegemod
Thanks!
~Rusty
More drama like this and 80% of ensl.org community will be over for lunch.
Regardless, I don't give a damn about what kind of goals or vision you have for the mod when you're using that as justification for breaking the rules. I do not want any of my work a part of something that is going to be restricted to being controlled by one user.
This is where I can see what KKyle is thinking, maybe. But the problem is that if he's collaborating as such, he CANNOT have 100% stake in the server. 'Cause monopolies are bad for everyone, no? But having two servers and not enough players to get a quality fill on either server is also bad for everyone.
I don't at all agree with the restrictions, but I also don't care outside of how much I do care about that I know Dragon has coded so much for the game to this point that I do care about.
I guess he changed his mind about being open...
Fortunately it is not and I refuse to let it be anymore than a 10 minute distraction from normal ns2 or other any other mods while it is still under supervision of this guy.
This isn't a personal attack yet again but I'm getting tired of seeing these self serving bull**** threads being created, do us a favour stick to one thread, keep it in mods where it truly belongs and regularly justify to yourself how much important work you're doing there.
Good on you @Rusty_1 for taking your own interpretation of what siege should be, you seem to have a clear idea already, maybe I'll join your server one day without seeing an siege author shrink, enlarge, slay players on a whim to feed his all powerful ego.
Well I am not much of a writer and don't really enjoy writing, but I felt like I wanted to say something. My goal is to try to make this sound touching, but it will probably sound corny and worth a few laughs. I am very serious.
To all concerned, mainly Rusty, Kyle, Dragon, and all developers that have their code in this mess,
I have a few words to say. This is not planned to be a judgment or choosing of who is right/wrong. I am here to just put it all simply what the real goal is with NS2 developers. I have heard most of the in's-and-out's in this "beef" as people call it and I think it is rather ridiculous. This isn't street rap, it is video game developers all (hopefully) working toward a common goal of making beautiful loved mods/maps that the public love and enjoy. I understand the qualms on all sides, but you are all smart people. I am not going to point out any specific issues for either side, because I feel they are all obvious and listed on this page already. So let's see where this goes.
I have played NS2 since the beginning of December 2014. Previously I was involved for a few years with the game 'Tremulous' which a few of you may have heard of. A month or so later I discovered the siege mod and grew very fond of it. I probably put 70 hours into siege which to some of you may be a lot and others very little. I liked all the active development and this true sense of connection between YOU (all addressed in greeting) and the great development of NS2 mods. It truly felt like a family working together to make beautiful things. I felt like my suggestions and time were of value to the community and that I was not just another number in a game yelling one of a million ideas that get thrown in the waste basket. It was the great ideas from everyone creating the masterpiece we call NS2. For a couple months this all seemed great and I was unaware of any "beefs" going on between developers (didn't know about the 'IBIS' one). Last night I heard all about it the issues started from both parties and so the "Developer Spat began".
Again I have heard from both sides back and forth so I will not hit on details, because they are all self apparent ton all involved. People's feeling are hurt, their hard work not used as they wanted it to be, angry words have been pass around, but is it really worth it? What is the end product from this? Who is going to take the biggest hit? Kyle? Rusty? Dragon? Either server? No, it will be a hit on everyone. It is going to damage and disrupt the development of siege mods, it will shrink siege players and make a full games hard to come by, eventually either one or both servers will slip away, and all this is turn will hurt the face of siege and all its works. Again addressing YOU, this is hurts much more then just each other, it hurts the whole community. You are all brilliant video game developers and a whole lot smarter then I am, isn't there some way things can be worked out? Some may see this as a fail on the end of community developers and I see it as an opportunity to create a strong bond of siege developers that work together making many people young and old happy. On the other hand, YOU can all continue this 'beef' break each other down and hurt the whole community.
In conclusion, there really isn't much to conclude. Maybe this was all too blunt, maybe its all just worth a few laughs, maybe my lack of writing skill ruined what needs to be said, and maybe, just maybe, this is all just a waste of time, but I truly mean all this from the bottom of my heart and wish others will understand and see it how I do. I await with hope and faith that you will listen and solve this just like a piece of bugged code or a glitch.
Sincerely and most truthfully,
Neck Snapper ~A common fellow member ~
Yeah most people are just a set a simple text and a photo with very little leading to their personal life. Not much to have a personal attack on. Kyle on the other hand has shown more of himself then he probably should have online. Yeah there are a lot of personal attacks you can throw at him now.
If you are part of the developer community (large or small), you are a developer.
If you were so okay w/ it, why come here to publicly rant and rave and spill your emotions all over the forums again? MCG was much better (and populated) w/ 2 22 - 24 slot servers IMO. Now I never see it in the browser. This helped?
Anyways, all I can say is that siege, IMHO is not helping to grow ns2.... At all. In fact if I were a nooby, saw that the only server w/ slots open happened to be a 42 slot siege mod server (imagine I didn't know it was a mod, i'm expecting to hop into my first game of ns2), and joined up.. only to have a clusterfk of a game mode that is NOT what I saw in the trailers.. I'd get the impression that this was all that's left or at least that I didn't want to be a part of it, and I'd probably drop the game.
(Salty bit)
Siege is not fun in my opinion, and doesn't help people to learn the ACTUAL game.. Sure you can flash your lifeforms like crazy if you want because you've got the res to do it, but is this going to help me to actually learn to play ns2? And the repeated outbursts from certain members here draw my interest further from it. You take a full 42 man siege server (or any high pop server really
Sorry if feelings are hurt, but maybe keep them of the internet?
That's a shame you feel so negative to siege, but that is also how I feel about NS2 combat.
There wasn't anything wrong with combat per se, I always viewed it as a warmup for the NS2 experience, where rookies could improve their skills or get the basics down without getting punished too much for it. But that's another discussion entirely.
Should the CSGO modders care that you stole that XP mod idea to buy stuff in-game? i don't think so. It's pretty cool you are slowly learning to mod in the way you are, At the end of the day, you are your own worst enemy by trying to strangle the people helping you, many respectable people call you trash behind your back simply because you bark up the wrong leashes constantly, why are you so annoying? Hell the top server owners dislike interacting with you because of your narcissism an it's sort of getting to me now.
People can host siege-mod on there own server
People can use siege-mod code
People can use the code from most of the steam-workshop mods to create or re-create there own packs and or mods, litterlly no-one cares till you abuse the freedom you get to strangle people.
you're deluded at times and i wonder if anyone actually cares for anything other then the constant retardation and interaction with you.
If it rustles your jimmies that much stop your coding of siegemod, you're only holding yourself at bay by being a complete child in these situations. Even Rusty of all people whom sucks completely yet is adored by FLG and some of the CDT seems to have a point this time around, you're just a loose cannon buddy.
What i get from my own experiences with siege, it's enjoyable abeit very fucking buggy, features half-implemented and broken, game-modes constantly changed, i don't think people who first started ns2 then joined the siege server would think it was the vanilla ns2 game-mode, it's clearly a siege-map and people would ask. The game-mode itself isn't yours as it was an NS1 mod, the maps and the parts of code used in your mods were ported from NS1 mostly not by you but other helpful hands in the community.
note:Also to those people trying to find out how he is redirecting, just do a recursive search for it with notepad++, i wouldn't be surprised if there's a gaping backdoor too, so many times we crash (two of us) the memory leak on that mod due to the base mods never being updated by original authors to whom i say you can't cry if your mod is butchered when you never update the thing.
After seeing the code with my own eyes all I can say from what's been said is that was a very immature move to make, the situation could've been handled much better than it currently is now.
that I speak to personally. I don't consent, I don't forgive you.
If you don't care what anyone thinks why do you feel the need to air your dirty laundry on a public internet forum? I think that you do care, you just didn't get the answer you were hoping for.
Problem is KKyle is that you paint yourself to be the savior of siege mod which wasn't even your idea to begin with. You've pulled code left, right and center from various other mods without their permission but you're unwilling to share your own mod with other server operators? And the idea that siege can only be fine tuned to one server is a load of rubbish to be honest. What makes said server so special? I think the issue here is one of control and power. You refuse to allow your mod to be used on any server as not all mod authors are given administrative access to the server AFAIK but is that really an issue? (I bet this was the case with IBIS). @ZEROibis can you verify that please correct me if I am wrong.
Everything I've witnessed of siege mod so far when you are present is some form of control going on, shrinking players, enlarging players, the odd slay every now and then. The hidden context in all your posts claiming its not to float your own ego in reality is not really true is it. This isn't the KKyle show.
Take the time off KKyle, get a job, get a dog or get a girlfriend? (Just don't confuse the two though). Do something positive with your life as it appears this mod is changing you for the worse.
I can understand why LeBron James is cocky, he has savant-like talent. Some people, on the other hand, need to eat their humble pie and stop rampaging on like anybody gives a damn.
I don't care what anyone says about you. That is a hilariously mellow reaction to the accusations that you face.
I have no knowledge of the actual topic so I won't comment on that. Carry on.
Today No more naming and shaming Kyle. -Decoy was filled. But It's running old and outdated maps with the entities and plugins not in sync. So basically, form what I hear, the timers did not diplay. And suddendeath triggered without warning. Players had no idea what was going on.
Here's a quote from someone that was there
Also, No more naming and shaming Kyle. -Decoy is running ns_Siege007. Which is outdated, I made ns2_siege007 that's in sync. IT's the small details like these that I can't even begin to describe that running the server requires. There's so many fine tuned details that are very server specific. Any other server will have the wrong setting and I do not have the energy to synchronize more than one server. So this is why I say more than 1 server is more harmful than it is helping.
Thanks to No more naming and shaming Kyle. -Decoy , Siege now has giving approximately 30 people the wrong impression of what the mod is. And given how out of tune Zero is, that wont change.
P.s - i'd like to do ns_herosiege_remade just like ns_chucksiege_Remade.
You need to knock off the name calling. You have dug yourself into this hole. Getting upset, making these accusatory posts, then claiming you aren't reading anything anyone else posts really isn't doing anything to solve the situation. It's just making it worse. Please keep your posts respectful or keep them off of the forums. That goes for everyone.
And for the record, for someone who openly admits to stealing code from other people, did you really expect your opinion would be trusted without explanation and rationalization? No way.