Helping Marine Comebacks
moultano
Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Bilebomb is the perfect comeback tool, both in its advantages and disadvantages.
- it's devastatingly effective.
- it requires a marine response.
- the gorge has low mobility.
- the gorge is weak in combat.
All of these characteristics combine to make what I feel is the single most dramatic element of the game. Marines in a winning position can't rest on their laurels, they have to push through and win the game. Furthermore, they can't stop doing things like lane blocking and getting map visibility, because any lapse is an opportunity for a gorge to slip through. A gorge slipping through can counter marine pushes without attacking head on. It adds a huge amount of tension to the game that is extremely fun for both sides.
I think the game could benefit from giving marines a tool with a similar effect on the game. Ninja phase gates are the closest equivalent, but they aren't devastating enough. Marines just can't melt bases nearly fast enough, so the aliens have plenty of time to respond. The phase gate is a significant time investment and requires the whole team's involvement to use adequately. Late game losing marines just get locked in their base with no realistic options. Grenade launchers don't do enough damage to be an equivalent. With a JP the argument could be made, but this is top tier tech, not available to a losing team.
For this reason, winning as aliens is a boring experience. There's just nothing else to worry about anymore. It's just a slow grind to finally take the main base down.
My proposal is to make the flamethrower disable egg spawning when the hive is on fire.
This has many of the characteristics already that make bilebomb work. A marine with a flamer is a slow easy target with limited PvP ability. They are easy to lane block and easy to pick off in the field. The goal is to make a flamethrower in the hive room a scary thing that requires an alien response, but not so powerful that it immediately causes permanent damage. This would also make advanced armory before upgrades a more viable but risky tech path.
- it's devastatingly effective.
- it requires a marine response.
- the gorge has low mobility.
- the gorge is weak in combat.
All of these characteristics combine to make what I feel is the single most dramatic element of the game. Marines in a winning position can't rest on their laurels, they have to push through and win the game. Furthermore, they can't stop doing things like lane blocking and getting map visibility, because any lapse is an opportunity for a gorge to slip through. A gorge slipping through can counter marine pushes without attacking head on. It adds a huge amount of tension to the game that is extremely fun for both sides.
I think the game could benefit from giving marines a tool with a similar effect on the game. Ninja phase gates are the closest equivalent, but they aren't devastating enough. Marines just can't melt bases nearly fast enough, so the aliens have plenty of time to respond. The phase gate is a significant time investment and requires the whole team's involvement to use adequately. Late game losing marines just get locked in their base with no realistic options. Grenade launchers don't do enough damage to be an equivalent. With a JP the argument could be made, but this is top tier tech, not available to a losing team.
For this reason, winning as aliens is a boring experience. There's just nothing else to worry about anymore. It's just a slow grind to finally take the main base down.
My proposal is to make the flamethrower disable egg spawning when the hive is on fire.
This has many of the characteristics already that make bilebomb work. A marine with a flamer is a slow easy target with limited PvP ability. They are easy to lane block and easy to pick off in the field. The goal is to make a flamethrower in the hive room a scary thing that requires an alien response, but not so powerful that it immediately causes permanent damage. This would also make advanced armory before upgrades a more viable but risky tech path.
Comments
I've been Compiling arguments for this thread / idea for weeks now lol
Where the talks of making the flamethrower more like BB come from is a chart I made :
http://www.lucidchart.com/invitations/accept/52a92a2c-00c3-4ba6-896d-7fc9125d4a75
Or without the notes / explanations :
http://imgur.com/FRZa0Yv
I would not make that egg suppression the only change though..
I would modify the FT to be much more geared towards PvE in all aspects , be detached from AA (so its timing more matches BB), diminish its player dmg, prevent tunnel usage for 3 seconds etc etc..
You jumped the gun on my whole presentation though! *shakes fist*
There's so many more reasons to go over why this should occur..
So basically the marine (at least the potent ones) have :
-The early-game. Having the 2 natural RTs outside the hive with these opponents is noticeable. And if they don't kill it 1 or 2 times; you're lucky.
-They also have a good portion of the middle game even if they can't kill Lerks and Fades fast enough. Not to mention they know what will happen next when they see 2 or 3 lerks. Say "2 lerks" to that marine, he will answer "2 fades and maybe a Onos".
You want to give them this ? Stop me if I'm wrong.
FT is already powerful (even though it's not used in comp)
-It removes adrenaline (good bye fades),
-It burns spore, umbra (not sure), and bile.
-It blocks the alien view. Defending inside a hive is a nightmare.
-It inflict damage several seconds after getting far away.
-It removes the crag ability to heal. And since a long time you can't have 3 crags under the hive for 3 times the heal.
this change would be too powerful in the reverted situation where the marine are dominant. No chance of coming back for the aliens and game killer. I've seen that in combat already. JP+FT is just too powerful. The egg mechanic is the only thing that can unlock the home invasion (if it can be described like that). That's why i asked for egg removal long ago.
Another thing. What's the point of killing a hive when the aliens team has 3 to 4 hives while your base is on the verge of being demolished or is demolished ? It is especially true with 4 TPs maps. At best you relocate but we know it won't happen.
With this, the alien behavior would change a bit. Making sure all hives are covered with crags and they would make sure the upgrades are in a safe place before attacking. It won't change the end but how it would happen.
Before that point i call it mid-game. Alien have 2 hives and marines can still do a lot. No need for a super weapon like free candy.
Then there is the bad start. Usually the bad start isn't because of bad tech tree or something like that. It's just because there's a bunch of morons in your team. When a field commander say "don't touch anything" and the first action of these guys is to shoot at anything that looks alien... Sorry but it's not a flame thrower that will save them.
I don't believe another weapon buff or a new weapon would do. The marine team needs new abilities that will change the tech tree. FT buff isn't one of them.
Also, you can use it with a JP. Heck, i never use it without. Otherwise you die in seconds. This would make mid-game AA-JP rushes even deadlier. Give aliens free leap and spores with a second hive and we can talk about that idea again
You expect a single, sneaky marine with a FT to make the aliens panic in order to create a situation that takes pressure away from the front line if aliens dominate. But if aliens dominate and have 2-3 hives, they wouldn't care about a single player frying one hive. But if the changes are in function when the marine team is coordinated or winning, it gives them a big advantage over a weak alien team.
Bilebomb is nice because it damages the whole base, a gorge isn't expansive and you can't ignore that attack for long. A gorge is easy to kill and easy to block since it can't ride a Lerk anymore. It can even be countered by a FT marine and rendered useless. Now imagine a gorge doesn't have bile, but an acid area attack that only stops the IPs to work!? That would be mega OP, as OP as vortex was as it could disable IPs and observatories. Hindering the other team to spawn is a death sentence and not a nice comeback mechanic.
For a personal note, I don't find the constant threat of a bilebomb rush on base particularly enjoyable. It is certainly preferable to feel some sense of vulnerability, but bilebomb rushes have become an extremely predictable and stale expectation IMO.
Capable individuals such as yourself who are unwilling to participate in the actual discussion at hand (and instead defend your design by calling discussion of it "not smart") only exaggerates this further.
Does that mean the remaining players can't or should not engage in discussions? No, that's a ridiculous presumption...
No one has ever made clear decisions about the intended strength of the RTS mechanics (except for Flayra stating that it should be an FPS primarily) - and no one is going to magically step in now to provide this.
Yet it has never stopped you from offering balance or design suggestions that were implemented and directly effected said strength of RTS elements, so why is it suddenly a prerequisite now??
I think it provides the tension that many people enjoy, providing back and forth games, close calls, balancing offense with defense, requiring coordination as well as scouting, and more than likely the only reason you have come to find it predictable is because it is the only mechanic in the game that does this, like moultano and I have pointed out. (sneaky PGs aren't remotely as effective or possible)
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What I've noticed is that some individuals like yourself enjoy an NS2 that has a hidden round timer and rather rely on conceding a round than allowing mechanics which add variety to what otherwise is often a predictable outcome.
The issue I take with this approach is that while it works for competitive games, which are small and have someone who speaks for the whole team, it falls apart with higher playercounts that all vary in opinion and skill... often turning into a shitshow where the end drags on forever and leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouths. And that is ignoring the fact that I consider being able to predict the outcome so soon and so frequently as being absolutely terrible design.
In other words, slippery slopes don't effect competitive games to the same degree that they do to public games.. not even remotely.
So why would anyone in that community care if changes were made to lessen them? People like yourself will eventually come to just find it an "extremely predictable and stale expectation" anyways, so you might as well let everyone else enjoy more varied rounds, diminish the dreaded PvE scenarios, fix the FT role, encourage team composition, and diminish the poisonous demotivation that comes from slippery slopes. Why is providing a hopeful chance at winning until the very last second such a bad thing?
Aliens have good economy. Disrupting their spawn pattern can be a viable balancing option, if done correctly.
If there is no such information available, probably you should implement match statistics gathering and aggregation before you do any balance changes. Your opinion could change to the opposite when you look at the exact data.
Looking at the list Uncle said, it is crazy. At this point a buff needs to be tied to a new ability, not tacking another feature to the Flamethrower.
The problem with this game is everything is OP to some extent. You're battling OP technology against OP technology. Once one side gets a foothold, things deteriorate rather rapidly. How many times to marines play better and than 6 Onos appear and it's all over. Limiting technology seems to be the answer. Buffing single Exo slightly and nerfing the dual slightly.
To attempt to explain simply (very simply) say a hive is being burned:
1 flamer = 100% damage
2 flamer = +70% damage
3 flamer = +40% & you get the idea...
This way, the flamethrower also remains a support weapon, you don't take too many because of that reduced effectiveness... Only I'm not sure if the engine could handle that sadly
EDIT: Now I think about it, does tick damage from 2 different weapons count separately? I shouldn't have opened me mouth on this :V
I already think FTs are very powerful in this respect, and direct entity damage could be removed and they would still retain this utility, so I dont think its about the damage or at all the risk of multiple marines with FT, its that a single one of these buggers in a coordinated push can make a big difference.
Disabling egg spawning could be absolutely brutally OP - things can be hard enough on an alien team in the face of 1-2 skilled marines already, lots of games seeing a couple dudes egglocking a hive by themselves with W0 rifles over and over again. Bring along Joe the flamethrower with these two to be the skulk magnet, and you have insta-GG (unless the aliens spend like 69 res on eggs to come back from the spawn queue).
Marine teams in pubs falling short of W2A2 upgrades will probably struggle to push a hive down if its under cover of fades/lerks/gorges/onos, but a FT in the mix can make a huge difference- suddenly nothing can heal behind the hive, or regenerate energy, or anything, unless that FT dies. Indeed, the FT is almost always the first target for aliens in a group of marines, and is rarely able to survive the attack. I'm still very much for altering the survivability of FT dudes by reducing its weight allowing the marine to make himself as hard to hit as his shotgun buddies.
Woah woah woah, slow down. The problem with this game is that nothing is OP enough. This was explicitly decided during design, for some reason that people like to reiterate that I won't, because I don't
And your reasoning why it's ill thought out ??
Not that I think the egg idea specifically is infallible, but generally assisting marines more in the hated PvE areas that plague pubs would not just provide more enjoyable PvP gameplay, but might help nudge that alien win rate off its throne, especially in the long games where they pretty much just PvE you to death.
I can't imagine a more PvE role for the FT (even if that means severely diminishing its player dmg and other roles) somehow securing "stomps" for marines..
I would not stop the Hive from spawning eggs, but having it shut down things like Gorge Tunnels would be a very nice addition.
Cost 10 res to research and is tied on the Robo Facility. Enables constructions of Null Field Generators. Costs 20 res to build, and is a slow moving thing that has an orb on top of treads. About 4k health. Null Field is an ability that the NFG can activate. It can only be used once every minute, and shares its cooldown globally. It has a range that is slightly less than an Arc range. For the next 60 seconds, all Alien units entering/leaving the NFG range is instantly slowed by 40%. While in the area, Aliens are slowed 20%.
There, new tech that is is designed to drastically enable more aggressive plays and if you make it constructed on the field instead of by a Robo Facility, enables some massively powerful pushes. Research it before Bilebomb and you have a new Marine All-In.
60 seconds is absolutely out of the question imo, that is far too long for any ability tbh.
But tell us why this suggestion is necessary and what it is you'd like it to solve. Do you just want an all-in tech or is there a deeper reason why you want this?
btw, I'm against this for many reasons, but I just want you to make a full case before dismantling this idea.
All Marines really have for Commanders to use for aggression is Macs and Catpacks. I don't want something attached to a Marine directly, and there is already Catpacks in the game. I'm sick of the Flamethrower as it is used as well, so no secondary weapon. So I want a new thing that is not attached to a Marine. So no upgraded Cat-Packs or the like. I want it more to be along the likes of the Aliens, an ability the commander can use that does not determine exactly on a Marine using it. That means I would want an ability or building. Considering I don't want to suggest a total rework on the Marine tree, it has to tie onto existing devices. Honestly what the NFG is tied into is not a huge thing, but I want a possibility to give the Marines a viable all in.
Then what should the tech do? ARCs and turrets exist, so it can't overlap with that role. ARCs are a good method for building up into a push, and while they are designed to be able to move around, a more mobile device could be used. Considering PvE is not the point, it should be something that changes fights themselves, the same way a Shade/Crag can. Something that does not overlap with any grenade, Exo, GL, Flamethrower, ARCs, or turrets is something that counters a major ability of the Aliens. The ability to quickly get around the map. The stronger slow when traversing the radius is designed to harm that. The much weaker slow on the inside is to make combat still fair and fun for the Aliens.
The long cooldown and use time is to make the NFG a major target, and killing it quickly will stop the Marines from just using another right away. It also enables the Aliens to ignore it, or bait out its use like people can with the beacons. It also enables aggressive but slower play with a Robos rush. If the Marines get away with the setup, they can entrench aggressively amazing fast and NFG with Turrets will be a viable early game option besides the Arms Lab every game. This will force Bile and the gameplay can be changed a fair deal. Admitly this kind of overlaps with the ARC rush, but that is fair enough.
I mean hurr durr I didn't think about it dismantle my idea nad prove me stuiupid.
Everything is "OP" when used well, that's what skill is.
Also, beacons can be to the aliens advantage almost as much as marines. It's just a central game mechanic that both teams can use in their own ways.
The flamethrower doesn't need a huge boost for combat viability. Right now a lerk, a fade, an sometimes even a skulk can fly by and miss the damage tick. Compare the lmg vs the flamethrower with hit sounds. LMG is bobobobobob, the shotgun is BOOOOOM, and then the flamethrower is boop.......boop.......boop. The flamethrower's damage tick is too slow. A 15 pres ft should be able to have a strong chance of winning against a free skulk in a 1v1 assuming equal skill. This requires engine changes, but has the benefit of little potential ripple effects in balance.
Flamethrower is designed to be a support weapon and does a pretty good job of that right now. It is just so situational. It is hard to justify a flamethrower over a shotgun in anything other than a hive push. So I would suggest emphasizing the flamethrowers support role and basically remove its combat viability. There are many ways this could be done.
I would make the flamethrower do 400% damage to just player armor, and adjust the damage to non armor health low enough where it is not a problem. So an FT would melt player armor away and drains energy. This would make it more supportive and non combative in a combat scenario. I beleive comp mod added the HMG to counter onos. A flamethrower that melts armor and drains energy would be a nice way to counter onos but only possible with support. If you are a fade, and you see that a flamethrower is in a group of lmg's you will be scared. Flamethrowers will be picked off first still, if possible, but you will have to think twice about it. Maybe make eggs a flammable structure, like clogs and hydras too.
Flamethrower would do the same structure damage as it does now.
This would put the FT in a bilebomb like role but on marines. A biling gorge is helpful in group engagments, a lone gorge in a base is scary. It is this support role I would try to push a flamethrower into.
I dislike taking flamethrower out of the advanced armory. If you did that AA would only get you a grenade launchers and a pathway to jetpacks. Maybe if grenade launchers, hand grenades, catpacks, and nanosheild were attached to researching advanced armory to make up for no flamethrowers.
I like this idea much more than the OP. I'm not sure I'm on board w/ the gorge tunnel bit, but I think making structures take extra dmg when on fire is a great idea. I look at it like this:
If this buff is to make gameplay more dynamic for marines in the same way that a gorge rush can happen any time during a game to turn tide for aliens, then I think that would be an optimal way to do it for marines. When you've got one or two skulks in base, it's not a huge threat and usually one marine can take care of it. If 2 gorges and a skulk are in your base, the threat is much more serious.
On the other hand, if one or two marines make a push into an alien hive, the threat is not huge. The comm can hop out usually and take care of them, lerks or whoever can respond quickly, they make take out an egg or two, but not a big deal. A competent comm will save upgrades. Now if one flame thrower and 2 lmgs come into your hive w/ this proposed buff ( @Zavaro's proposed buff, not OP), the threat suddenly becomes much more real. To me, this is much more like the panic that can take place when you've suddenly got 2 gorges biling your power. Power can go down in seconds with a gorge rush, so would upgrades, maybe even the hive if you added this dmg increasing flamethrower. This, IMHO, would really give marines that last push option, making comebacks more viable. Disabling eggs when hive is on fire? as a comeback strategy? I don't think I see how that's going to help a marine team win, especially if they're on their heels and the aliens probably have another hive up (comebacks are what the OP is referring to, right? wouldn't be a comeback if they weren't in the hole.)
tl;dr: plz consider @Zavaro's suggestion!
also a sneaky pg hive rush can have a dramatic effect
I don't know why people enjoy the alien "comback" mechanics. I would not even call them that way, because it is not a real comeback due to good plays, but rather the abuse of the fact that mistakes made by single marine players can lead to the end of the round within 10 seconds. Be it the commander not being able to beacon or drop another chair in time or the one player who after respawn didn't go on the lane he needed to be (or even going there just to die after spotting a gorge tunnel without telling the team). I feel no enjoyment winning a game due to such a rush (because I know it was lost and the other team simply played better) and it feels even worse to be on the winning marine team (who maybe fought a hard way trapping and killing lifeforms to reach that advantages) and lose within seconds because a single player slept.
Can we please not add a similar meachanics for marine "comebacks"???
What's not a "good play" about it? It's a bit 'elitist' to blame it on the rookies now, really. It's not like the poor veterans couldn't actually walk to the naturals if they notice that all the clueless players just phase out. Also, It's not like you can drop a sneaky tunnel (or PG) anywhere and get away with it - you need to find an open lane first. If you lose a game in clear favor of your marine team to a bile rush, the aliens' map awareness and teamwork was quite apparently superior to yours (including your commander).
One of the big problems with a lot of comeback mechanics like this is that the correct response of the team in lead is to play extra safe, which then shuts down the possibility of comeback and ends up prolonging the already decided round.
For example in Starcraft 2 (WoL era at the very least) often the correct play after taking a lead was to fall back, milk the advantage for 5 minutes and then finish things carefully. That leads to very uneventful rounds that go longer than they should and end up with very one sided finishing attack. Even if there is a comeback, it usually feels like the player having advantage fumbled badly more than the other player making the comeback happen.
I disagree that the fact that it leads to 'playing extra safe' is somehow a problem. I don't think that doing the sweeping technique, where you skip the phase gates and just clear the lanes for gorge tunnels etc., would prolong the match that much in NS2. Because you're not really doing a lot of "macroing", like you are in SC2 when you were massing that final army.
So I think the analogy is unfair in that respect.
To use SC2 again. I think the gorge tunnel is more akin to drops (or perhaps nydus worms in some sense). Imagine SC2 with no drops.. It'd just be incredibly sad to lose that aspect of the game. It's exciting, it's complicated to guard against and it makes the game far more thrilling imo. Sure it's frustrating to lose a game to a well timed drop, but at the end of the day the other player played better than you.
If I'm understanding this right, Anzestral is eluding to the frustration of losing the match on the basis of a teammates incompetence. The frustration I sympathize with, but this is the nature of a team game, I don't know if this is a valid complaint to be honest. In team games you will also win games in spite of your own incompetence. Nothing will ever change this fact - we can remedy it of course, but I'm not convinced at this time that we should.
I'm on the fence here. I throw this out extemporaneously. Would it make sense to have gorge tunnels, that are finished outside infestation, make a global cry-out (like a beacon, or a nydus worm)?
He's not blaming it on rookies, he's blaming it on everyone who phases out of base when they see no one zoning the other routes of the map.
Being a veteran does not make you immune to being clueless. Anzestral didn't say rookie or veteran, he said bad players.
In theory this an incredibly difficult skill on servers greater than 6v6, but alas too many bad marines don't think about the bigger picture and just phase --> die even if they see a skulk run through the map. Thus it is an incredibly easy thing to do.
Backs to the wall --> 10 second rush win is exhilarating for those 10 seconds, but any half decent commander would have scanned the hive for open tunnels and then maybe naturals for the GT, and any half decent marine will not spawn and leave his naturals unscouted in a back-to-the-wall scenario for aliens. It's not hard for marines to do, and it's dumb for them not to do.
Also it's sooooooooo amusing that public players can do this when they're often stuck in their hive having basically lost the game, instead of doing it to res bite to win the game earlier! This is a really good example of how misunderstood the game is supposed to be played by the majority of the community.
That is so false. You can grind a win away as marines and be in a position to kill the game off through 10-15 minutes of hard work, and then a gorge rush happens. Doesn't mean alien team had better teamwork or map awareness in total, just for those last few minutes.
And no one is disputing that that is not a valid win for aliens, Anzestral was just saying how cheap, boring it is for aliens and how frustrating it is to be a marine playing with other incompetent people.