Allowing removed view-models

FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,479 Advanced user
Someone please explain why it's okay to remove something that is supposed to completely black out your screen for a set time period of time.

I won't accept any explanations personally, as this is without sense, but I want to understand the decision-making behind why it's allowed.
mattji104
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Comments

  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 581 Advanced user
    edited November 2014
    why does the skulk even have a viewmodel? correct me if i'm wrong but I don't think its eyes on the model are in the mouth. that breaks my immersion.
    Kouji_SanGibs
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 1,296 Advanced user
    I think hes saying he wants to know why some think this is OK, but is clearly stating that he does not and will not think the same way.
    If we are to be damned, let us be damned for what we really are. - Capt. Jean Luc Picard
  • CalegoCalego Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 763 Advanced user
    The reasoning is that since everyone can do it, it's no unfair advantage.
    Gibs
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,479 Advanced user
    Calego wrote: »
    The reasoning is that since everyone can do it, it's no unfair advantage.

    But why should anyone have access to something contrary to the game design?
    mattji104
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    mattji104 wrote: »
    Calego wrote: »
    The reasoning is that since everyone can do it, it's no unfair advantage.

    But why should anyone have access to something contrary to the game design?

    Define what you mean by game design please.

    Wouldn't any modification, however small, be "contrary to the game design"? Including, crosshairs, nsl lights, huds, av's etc.
    Decoy
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,479 Advanced user
    Customizing those things doesn't remove or change functionality. Crosshairs still aim, lights still light, huds still inform, and alien-vision still informs as well.

    Removing view-models makes it easier to see what you're doing, especially for skulks and lerks. I understand it's available to everyone, but it's game-changing and an "everybody's doing it" is a mentality that doesn't fit this situation. Does the screen turn black for a second to replace the model intrusion?

    At least there's friendly fire I guess
    mattji104
    swalk
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    Pretty much against this, I didn't even have any idea that this was allowed in official matches.
    Everybody who uses it should be ashamed of themselves, even more so the ones that allowed this to happen. The skulk/lerk bite animations and even marines guns are intentional vision blockers by game design. Part of the skill of playing aliens is to encount for this mechanism and lets be honest, it's already pretty easy to handle the alien movement etc.

    Whats next? Allowing scripts and macros?

    Also this mechanic is pretty much the only thing the marines can utilize to survive once the aliens get in melee range. And on the wider scale, the marines is the side that are having the most trouble winning both engagements and rounds.

    This should get prohibited in officials again, asap.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
    caperpKouji_SanvartijaFrozen
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    Timed biting and muzzle flash, both are quite the gameplay changer if removed

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

    swalkFrozenwooza
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Posts: 1,493 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    It does remove visual obscurity, yes. But it also removes all visual cues: swing timers, ammo counters, parasite graphics, scan and cloak graphics, etc... all which must be replaced and accounted for elsewhere on the UI to make up for it.

    Personally I didn't like playing with no viewmodels because of this (mostly the swing timers being absent) - but again it's largely personal preference.

    There was also an option on NS2+ previously to remove muzzle flash from guns, this is not new.
    image
    ZeframbonageDecoy
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    mattji104 wrote: »
    but it's game-changing and an "everybody's doing it" is a mentality that doesn't fit this situation.

    As somebody who doesn't use it, largely for the same reasons rant expressed, I don't care if other people use it. If it makes them better competitors - I think that's positive to the scene, so I say; more power to them.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,904 Advanced user
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Timed biting and muzzle flash, both are quite the gameplay changer if removed
    So true. When/where was it announced that this was not prohibited anymore?
    Seems like a very poor decision to please a few people and let them get advantage over others. So shameful.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
    2coughcaperp
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 581 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    rantology wrote: »
    It does remove visual obscurity, yes. But it also removes all visual cues: swing timers, ammo counters, parasite graphics, scan and cloak graphics, etc... all which must be replaced and accounted for elsewhere on the UI to make up for it.

    Personally I didn't like playing with no viewmodels because of this (mostly the swing timers being absent) - but again it's largely personal preference.

    There was also an option on NS2+ previously to remove muzzle flash from guns, this is not new.

    good no-viewmodels do not remove ammo/parasite/scan graphics/reload animation.

    highly suggest anybody who likes no view models to stop using the NS2+ version and move to these they will work in any server that has ns2+. and I don't think the comp scene is in any position to ban such petty personal preferences.
  • vartijavartija Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60193Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 99 Advanced user
    In NS1 it felt more like a gentlemen agreement not to allow such thing to save the little there was left of the atmospheric feeling of the game and rising the skill bar a bit. As long as this is allowed anyone who feels himself like a serious competitive player has no reason not to use it. It's comparable to not playing with pistol script if that was allowed.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    swalk wrote: »
    Pretty much against this, I didn't even have any idea that this was allowed in official matches.
    Everybody who uses it should be ashamed of themselves, even more so the ones that allowed this to happen. The skulk/lerk bite animations and even marines guns are intentional vision blockers by game design. Part of the skill of playing aliens is to encount for this mechanism and lets be honest, it's already pretty easy to handle the alien movement etc.

    I don't think the viewmodels were originally intended to be there to block your view. I would assume they are there so you can see what you're doing and it makes the game look better. Oh there is the gun I'm using to fire and so on. Many other fps games have the gun model in the base game. The alien viewmodel also shows you what you are doing. I haven't used the alien no viewmodel lately because it messes up my timing of my swipes/bites with it off. I like the visual indicator. So yes you may be able to see more, but it's a trade off on aliens. Perhaps some players use it, but I think the trade off makes it a personal preference.

    The marine viewmodel is more of a debate. Removing it does allow you to see a more, maybe an advantage at close range? I have tried marine viewmodels on and off, not sure what I'll settle on for marines. If you're better with them off, you'll probably remove them but does that make you all of a sudden able to track aliens and become a great player? You still have to do all the other things that makes this game difficult. So I would think allowing removed viewmodels makes certain players better/more comfortable. I would assume there are other players with high skill level that keep them on because that is what makes them comfortable in an engagement and/or they like the visual indicator.

    If all highly skilled players used them and the gap was wide between players that used them and players that didn't, then maybe it would hurt the game. I don't have any specifics to show that being the case. You could also make the argument that learning to play without viewmodels takes time and isn't an easy boost for your gameplay.
    Post edited by Deck_ on
    Sebd4rkAlf
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,479 Advanced user
    This shouldn't be a decision. It should be forced in either direction.

    Maybe this is the same as me thinking that allowing draw damage is ridiculous
    mattji104
  • bonagebonage Join Date: 2012-10-13 Member: 162230Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 119 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    View model difference is absolutely fine - i don't care if someone else has them on/off because it is a personal preference, not an advantage like a pistol script. It is not going to magically make someone aim/bite better or improve their game awareness by any significant margin.

    Are you guys gonna campaign for everyone to use normal lights and not low lights too? Or everyone to have the same alien vision or crosshairs or skins on? All of these have exactly the same effect on a player's visual experience as view models.

    There is nothing 'shameful' about allowing it, and i know that we will continue to allow users the choice to use it or not in our league because it is not a tangible advantage.

    Next item of drama pls.
    Captain of Hello/Hungry Together, AusNS2 Caster and AusNS2 Admin
    herakl3sSebSantaClawsDecoy
  • herakl3sherakl3s Join Date: 2010-12-22 Member: 75852Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 61 Advanced user
    lol what a joke, i did whine to zefram for months for this to be included and exactly like i explained in ns2 it doesnt change anything.
    Ppl hitting 20% will still hit 20, those hitting evilbot% will still hit that too.

    It's mainly a preference issue, half my mates keep using tracers so it looks more like the lg in quake and it helps their aim.
    Same thing.

    We tried it on and off it didn't change shit.
    It's always better to have more choice than less.

    bonageSeb
  • herakl3sherakl3s Join Date: 2010-12-22 Member: 75852Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 61 Advanced user
    edited December 2014
    The biggest shit atm is not this but bite para bite macros on skulks.

    Edit:
    And exactly like bonage said skins, gamma, digital vibrance settings etc... Give much more of a visual advantage than this.

    Now to the guys argueing about those visual advantages.
    Ns2 is 3x more about the sound cues than the visual ones, a good sound system gives you wallhack habilities in this game since you can hear your enemies from 2 rooms away, like the passive sound on non moving lerks etc... This is far more broken.

    Then the fight advantage hahahah biggest laugh ever guys we just found how to even the rine/alien win rates in lower divs.

    The gathered stats i have show that lower div players lose track and get ambushed 90% of the time by skulk on the lower right of their screen.
    Enabling this will allow them to win those early engagements.

    And to finish hilarious from ns1 players argueing about this when pistol macroing was allowed wich is 10x more broken.

    Bitch pls.
    Post edited by herakl3s on
    bonageSamusDroid
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    Why is this a thread now? Didn't we allow the viewmodel change before this season even started?

    wtf lol
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,479 Advanced user
    joshhh wrote: »
    Why is this a thread now? Didn't we allow the viewmodel change before this season even started?

    wtf lol

    It's a thread because I made a thread about it, was that a real question?
    mattji104
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,479 Advanced user
    bonage wrote: »
    View model difference is absolutely fine - i don't care if someone else has them on/off because it is a personal preference, not an advantage like a pistol script. It is not going to magically make someone aim/bite better or improve their game awareness by any significant margin.

    Are you guys gonna campaign for everyone to use normal lights and not low lights too? Or everyone to have the same alien vision or crosshairs or skins on? All of these have exactly the same effect on a player's visual experience as view models.

    There is nothing 'shameful' about allowing it, and i know that we will continue to allow users the choice to use it or not in our league because it is not a tangible advantage.

    Next item of drama pls.

    Consider the fact that a pistol script enables you to do something already available to you.

    Now consider the fact that disabling view-models enables you to make a choice between two very different things. (reference Rantology's post)

    Now consider the idea that a choice is a class.

    Now consider that the game is not meant to have classes based on the options menu.

    Now continue to go off-topic anyway
    mattji104
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,479 Advanced user
    bonage wrote: »
    View model difference is absolutely fine - i don't care if someone else has them on/off because it is a personal preference, not an advantage like a pistol script. It is not going to magically make someone aim/bite better or improve their game awareness by any significant margin.

    Are you guys gonna campaign for everyone to use normal lights and not low lights too? Or everyone to have the same alien vision or crosshairs or skins on? All of these have exactly the same effect on a player's visual experience as view models.

    There is nothing 'shameful' about allowing it, and i know that we will continue to allow users the choice to use it or not in our league because it is not a tangible advantage.

    Next item of drama pls.

    You're word isn't law and contributes little to nothing to the actual topic
    mattji104
  • DecoyDecoy Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159037Members, Super Administrators, Playtest Lead, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer Posts: 400 vanilla
    Removing Rich Infestation makes it easier to see what you're doing, especially for skulks and lerks. I understand it's available to everyone, but it's game-changing and an "everybody's doing it" is a mentality that doesn't fit this situation. We should force everyone to use rich infestation and remove minimal infestation. This should not be a decision. It should be forced in either direction. @Zefram pls ban minimal infestation in the NSL next season
    UWE Playtest Co-Lead
    herakl3sSamusDroid
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    joshhh wrote: »
    Dear Herr Fuhrer Zefram,

    For the next season I would really like to see:
    -No draw damage
    -Forced max NS2 settings (for immersion purposes of course)
    -No crosshair (do you get a crosshair irl??? No. duhhh)
    -More babblers (because herakles likes those)
    -Forced viewmodels with enlarged guns
    -More immersive viewmodels (including gun smoke clouds)

    -And more pies we can stick our fingers in.

    Thanks,
    joshhhy
    You totally forgot realistic gun jamming, so you have to go back to base and disassemble>clean>reassemble your weapon using Surgeon simulator physics!

    And to keep things fair vs both teams, aliens will get muscle spasms in their jaws and have to see a masseuse!

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

    Decoyvartija
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    ^^

    And I would like the skulk model changed to accurately represent eyes inside your mouth.
    DecoyYojimbo
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    Hmm reflecting on mah comment there and the word "fair"... Marines have to work and aliens get a massage... Something's off there in the fairness department, me thinks :-?

    Also I'm sorry, off-topic is off-topic... I'm just sad that off-topic on this here forum is no long the topic, when it used to be such a lively place of awesomeness

    *wind gust sound, random tumbleweed rolls past*

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

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