IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited October 2014
I see a potential issue with this idea:
"Pay $20 to play with people who aren't rookies!" Isn't much of an incentive, especially to people who just want to stomp all day.
Why is playing with better players better when they feel good about dominating every round?
.. Just look at how many happily played the MP demo for BF2 for YEARS.
I think something that is more immediately incentivizing, like only 1 or 2 maps at the most with no community maps or mods allowed, would do it.
"Pay $20 to play with people who aren't rookies!" Isn't much of an incentive, especially to people who just want to stomp all day.
Why is playing with better players better when they feel good about dominating every round?
.. Just look at how many happily played the MP demo for BF2 for YEARS.
I think something that is more immediately incentivizing, like only 1 or 2 maps at the most with no community maps or mods allowed, would do it.
I really like this idea. Free game is tram only, official rookie servers only. Upgrade to play on all maps and all servers.
Nono, force the rookies on a rotation of eclipse, refinery, mineshaft and docking. All of them gorgeous maps, and rookies don't have the expertise to tell a good map from a bad anyway. Summit is not a very aesthetically beautiful maps, in spite of the atrium plant.
I like the pseudo F2P idea with only 1 or 2 maps and no mods.
But I need to say it one more time: We still have the problem that we loose all those new players, so everything we do is worthless.
In my opinion we still need a better tutorial or a "tutorial mod" to explain the game. @duster: It's not the players skill that matters. Normally both teams have less better players. But when they know what to do it's much easier for everyone.
Just change the business model to "pay what you want" with a profitable minimum and sell through the website, assuming that Steam would allow it. Alternatively, significantly bring the price down. You still have that pay wall you wanted and make the game accessible outside of sales. These days people will hardly ever buy a product that isn't on sale, unless its terribly cheap or brand spanking new and riding the hype train. As it is, NS2 is way too expensive to bring in new players outside of any discounts.
Mineshaft would need to basically be completely redone to be viable for comp lol. I remember discussing it in map testing once and we all said nope.
Is it the spacing between tech points, paths around Repair, the openness of Drilling, and Central in particular? I like Mineshaft, but I can see how a decent team can easily hold certain points and give the other team no chance to counterplay.
If you can put a good case together as to a specific prolblem area and why it needs fixing. I can bring it up in our cdt meetings etc.
I think the problem area lies in the Repair/Cavern/Crusher/Cave area... It's just too easy for Marines to take Crusher if they start in Repair. I'd be curious to see how that map would play out if Marines started in Deposit and Aliens started Repair. Also Cave should either be moved in closer somehow, or eliminated as a starting point for Aliens. (maybe try starting Marines in Cave?)
and since this thread has somehow derailed into a conversation about fixing maps...
Gorge tunnel placements could still use some "fixing" also as it still feels like there are hundreds of viable spots where they can't be placed. Snake pass in Mineshaft is one example... There are several areas around Water pumps where we should be able to drop them also but can't. (like below/beside the walkway for one) Also on one of the custom maps (forgotten I think is the name) the entire lower left corner of the map is ridiculously hard to find a spot for a tunnel...
It would certainly be nice if Tunnels were once again useful beyond acting as infestation for RT's...
If you can put a good case together as to a specific prolblem area and why it needs fixing. I can bring it up in our cdt meetings etc.
Crusher is one of the naturals for both cave and sorting, but it is too exposed to marine pressure, and quite far from both hives. Also, there are essentially 3 hive locations in a row with no extra resource points in between them: deposit - sorting - cave (crusher and central drilling both occupy very much more central positions on the map.
Conversely, for marines in operations, water pumps is too far from base, and gap, while close enough, is very close to deposit, so requires that you also hold deposit (a good idea as it's very hard for aliens to assault deposit). If marines have deposit, and they can deny central drilling, they have a very easy time pushing sorting, crusher and cavern, and can effectively deny all non-hive harvesters and the pressure on sorting hive is pretty massive.
On pubs, I see a lot of alien wins because pub marines constantly go water pumps and deposit but don't put nearly enough pressure on crusher. If they DO get in to crusher, it's usually because there are a few decent players on marines, and it then very rapidly turns into a marine steamroller because aliens simply cannot expand.
Moving the crusher extractor to north tunnels, and shortening the distance along the path: operations -> water pumps -> repair would be a start, but I think there may be bigger issues that a few small changes wouldn't address. It probably needs to go under a few rounds of optimisation, tbh.
Comments
The same way TF2 does it.
You get everything in the game, but no blueprints until you spend some ammount of money.
for NS2: you get to play on Academy Servers, untill you've played enough to graduate, or buy your "diploma"
P.S. maybe the "demo" should be called "training mode" with a description that indicates "full game on limited servers"
"Pay $20 to play with people who aren't rookies!" Isn't much of an incentive, especially to people who just want to stomp all day.
Why is playing with better players better when they feel good about dominating every round?
.. Just look at how many happily played the MP demo for BF2 for YEARS.
I think something that is more immediately incentivizing, like only 1 or 2 maps at the most with no community maps or mods allowed, would do it.
Thank you sir.
I really like this idea. Free game is tram only, official rookie servers only. Upgrade to play on all maps and all servers.
But... I like Summit. :-<
Bizarre.
But I need to say it one more time: We still have the problem that we loose all those new players, so everything we do is worthless.
In my opinion we still need a better tutorial or a "tutorial mod" to explain the game.
@duster: It's not the players skill that matters. Normally both teams have less better players. But when they know what to do it's much easier for everyone.
Hence the incentive to BUY THE GAME!
Yeah I have no idea how the comp scene does it
OOOOOOOOOOOOOO SUCK IT COMP SCENE gurgle gurgle
Current map pool for AusNS2:
ns2_summit
ns2_tram
ns2_biodome
ns2_descent
ns2_caged
ns2_jambi
ns2_veil
ns2_kodiak
k m8
Whoa! The NSL's map rotation is the same.
Yeah, funny that...
gg wp glhf
wtb comp mineshaft. T.T
We tried it. Never again.
Is it the spacing between tech points, paths around Repair, the openness of Drilling, and Central in particular? I like Mineshaft, but I can see how a decent team can easily hold certain points and give the other team no chance to counterplay.
Too easy for marines to run straight through to a very open hive (repair to cave)
Too easy for aliens to rush and lock it down early (cave to repair)
What does the CDT think?
I think the problem area lies in the Repair/Cavern/Crusher/Cave area... It's just too easy for Marines to take Crusher if they start in Repair. I'd be curious to see how that map would play out if Marines started in Deposit and Aliens started Repair. Also Cave should either be moved in closer somehow, or eliminated as a starting point for Aliens. (maybe try starting Marines in Cave?)
and since this thread has somehow derailed into a conversation about fixing maps...
Gorge tunnel placements could still use some "fixing" also as it still feels like there are hundreds of viable spots where they can't be placed. Snake pass in Mineshaft is one example... There are several areas around Water pumps where we should be able to drop them also but can't. (like below/beside the walkway for one) Also on one of the custom maps (forgotten I think is the name) the entire lower left corner of the map is ridiculously hard to find a spot for a tunnel...
It would certainly be nice if Tunnels were once again useful beyond acting as infestation for RT's...
Crusher is one of the naturals for both cave and sorting, but it is too exposed to marine pressure, and quite far from both hives. Also, there are essentially 3 hive locations in a row with no extra resource points in between them: deposit - sorting - cave (crusher and central drilling both occupy very much more central positions on the map.
Conversely, for marines in operations, water pumps is too far from base, and gap, while close enough, is very close to deposit, so requires that you also hold deposit (a good idea as it's very hard for aliens to assault deposit). If marines have deposit, and they can deny central drilling, they have a very easy time pushing sorting, crusher and cavern, and can effectively deny all non-hive harvesters and the pressure on sorting hive is pretty massive.
On pubs, I see a lot of alien wins because pub marines constantly go water pumps and deposit but don't put nearly enough pressure on crusher. If they DO get in to crusher, it's usually because there are a few decent players on marines, and it then very rapidly turns into a marine steamroller because aliens simply cannot expand.
Moving the crusher extractor to north tunnels, and shortening the distance along the path: operations -> water pumps -> repair would be a start, but I think there may be bigger issues that a few small changes wouldn't address. It probably needs to go under a few rounds of optimisation, tbh.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/135759/map-issues-want-them-fixed-submit-requests-in-here
just so I dont derail the thread anymore