Votekick/Voteban

MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 724 Advanced user
edited September 2014 in NS2 General Discussion
I'm sure we've all had to put up with them at one time or another. A troll on a server who instead of playing the game, makes it their mission in life to be as annoying/troublesome as possible. Screaming into the mic, spamming text with nonsense, sitting around base for a chance to hop into the hive/chair and blow all the res/recycle the ip's, etc...

Of course in most cases an admin is present and they can be swiftly removed, however what happens when there is no admins online? Well we have to turn to the vote kick feature. Oh but wait, they can instantly rejoin the server (especially with an SSD) and continue their trolling until they are kicked again. In some cases (like a game I played yesterday) they are kicked 20+ times before they FINALLY grow tired of rejoining and give up.

Which brings me to the reason I made this thread... What are the chances of either adding a temporary ban to vote kick, or adding in a vote ban feature? That way when players vote to remove a problematic individual, it would actually keep them out for at least the rest of that game. Yes it has a slight potential to be abused (when enough trolls are in one server) but for the most part I think it would be a welcome addition for those times when an admin isn't online or can't be reached.

Agree or Disagree? Thoughts?
2coughPelargirVetinarisoccerguy243cooliticBeigeAlertAconitWarforce17d4rkAlfArthurDentCarNagE1
«13

Comments

  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,024 Advanced user
    Wonder if we played with the same guy recently... I think it was last night even...
  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Posts: 1,197 mod
    Decoy wrote: »
    I've actually requested this. First kick would be just a kick. Second like a 10-15 minute ban? Not a huge thing, but enough that most trolls would move on to other servers. It wasn't on the wishlist (oops), but it is now

    I've noticed that on the Trello Board. Excellent idea to make sure trolls cannot come back instantly. Personally, this kind of issue is pretty rare but still exists.
    Roobubba wrote: »
    @Decoy also can the log out or eject from cc move a player a little away from the current position?

    Agreed, that would be awesome too. So many boring people stay near the CC after being ejected and of course, it most of time prevents the player that really wants to command to get access to the chair.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


  • RaZDaZRaZDaZ Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167331Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 465 Fully active user
    Roobubba wrote: »
    @Decoy also can the log out or eject from cc move a player a little away from the current position?

    This needs to happen. So many times either a troll or rookie takes the chair after I hop out to defend base or build something and if they get ejected, they just stand there waiting. You can still get access to the chair currently but sometimes it can be hit or miss which can be a huge problem.
    NS2 ID: RaZDaZ
    Old School AvP2 Vet
  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members Posts: 323 Fully active user
    edited September 2014
    Had a similar problem with a troll a while ago that was griefing nonstop on a bunch of servers. We would kick him and he would rejoin instantly and continue trolling as if nothing happened because the votekick system is worthless. He eventually cleared out a bunch of servers with people just quitting because we couldn't do anything. I actually had a post here about him that was eventually closed because I pointed out his name. I also got this reply from IronHorse in an exchange of PMs where I made the suggestion to put a cooldown from rejoining after you get kicked:

    "If a server is getting players who are trolling then contact that server owner. If it's official servers you can contact me or Hugh.
    Like ANY multiplayer game with community ran servers it is entirely up to those server owners to do something about it - not game developers."

    "Take this issue for instance.. what is your solution beyond a better votekick? Anything you'd suggest wouldn't work because there are no resources available to dedicate to NS2 development, let alone micro issues like individual users. As a customer you just want things to work and probably don't understand why you can't post info about a bad user to be handled"


    So if you want to get something done, contact a server owner is his suggestion. Track down the server owner, plead your case, and show some evidence that you've surely gathered, right? Waste of time and completely illogical.
    Post edited by ns2isgood on
  • soccerguy243soccerguy243 Join Date: 2012-12-22 Member: 175920Members, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 515 Advanced user
    literally no reason, now that we have a CDT, that a temporary voteban isn't added. This allows the good community we always heard about on here to handle business for ourselves.

    Votekick then if the player rejoins within 15 minutes its a voteban option. make it 75% yes to pass.
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff Posts: 2,130 mod
    ...there should be no bans at all with votekick.
    Send me a private message if you need me to kill someone "help" with anything.

    The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, “You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I’m just not close enough to get the job done.” - George Carlin.

    Youtube Channel for Sydney Music
    RapGod
  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Posts: 1,197 mod
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    ...there should be no bans at all with votekick.

    Change the designation then.

    The first kick should be a simple kick as Decoy has mentioned. And if that guy keeps joining and trolling the server, the second kick should ban 10-15 minutes.

    You cannot create a voteban anyway if you want to make sure nobody in your server is going to abuse with that. So let's modify the current votekick.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


  • zoljazolja Join Date: 2003-06-06 Member: 17057Members Posts: 48 Advanced user
    It doesnt matter, if they leave the votekick doesn't count. Then they rejoin. Exploit has been around forever.
  • ATFATF Join Date: 2014-05-09 Member: 195944Members Posts: 261
    There's actually a lot of potential for abuse. It is going to prove itself ineffective and an annoyance.
    The need for this emerges from a low number of instances, yet even now there's abuse and random calling of the votekick just as much as there's trolling.
    It doesn't really help create a friendly atmosphere either.

    There's a need to come up with better ideas to solve the problem.

    A smart voteban. It needs all the advantages without all of the disadvantages.

    Can voteban be a double vote, meaning the first confirms intention (with some sort of anti random calling mechanism) and the second is one where every positive vote adds 5 minutes to the ban?
    Can you use the hive skill data to determine someone's vote calling/voting worthyness?
    Can there be a database of how many times someone was votekicked?
    Back in the days, chat output of a server was routed into an IRC channel and there admins had their clients sound an alarm when certain words were typed, such as "admin" or "troll".

    That still leaves the mini trolls where votekick/ban never succeed. Thought they are usually well known by the respective administrators.

    Please don't hide a voteban behind votekick. It needs to be clear as day that you are voting to ban someone.

    That being said, the effect of a full/popular server where someone getting kicked is instantly (or on the second try!) replaced by another person trying to get a slot is quite powerful.
    First they get 15+ yes votes slapped in their face, then cannot rejoin because their slot got taken.
    It's like a temp ban but not issued by a single person where the offender can be mad at the admin. Instead the offender is moved to actually re-evaluate their actions.

    It'd be nice if we can take as much negativity out of votekick/ban as possible, while having it still be a harsh weapon precisely when it's needed.
  • ATFATF Join Date: 2014-05-09 Member: 195944Members Posts: 261
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Don't even call it a "voteban". Just make it so if someone is kicked from the server, they cannot rejoin for x number of minutes. Simple. Not the end of the world if the rare troll-kick succeeds.

    Also, there needs to be a better way to identify players on the vote kick menu. A while ago, some guy was trolling, AND changing his name to other people's name. In the vote kick menu, those names show up exactly the same, and we don't know who to kick. Show their steam name on the votekick menu if they have changed their names in the middle of a round.

    A while ago it was still possible to make names visibly the same, as some chars were hidden. That's fixed afaik.

  • soccerguy243soccerguy243 Join Date: 2012-12-22 Member: 175920Members, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 515 Advanced user
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Don't even call it a "voteban". Just make it so if someone is kicked from the server, they cannot rejoin for x number of minutes. Simple. Not the end of the world if the rare troll-kick succeeds...

    QFT. /thread
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    @ns2isgood‌
    Nice job taking sentences out of context to serve your post, as well as not posting your own words or the multiple reasons why your thread was closed, or even the part where I said
    "I do agree however that votekick is useless. There is something that is in the works to address this. Similar to the examples you gave."

    OR Most importantly when this occurred : That was my response before the CDT was formed - when we actually didn't have resources do develop NS2.

    So why are you bringing it up now exactly like it's relevant?... I am assuming it's a disgruntled attempt at denigration, so cease your attempt at derailing a thread with a personal issue you have. (Angry at me because UWE did not have resources at the time to develop a certain feature you wanted..)
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    BeigeAlertcooliticsoccerguy243
  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members Posts: 323 Fully active user
    edited September 2014
    *snip*
    You were warned.
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members Posts: 799 Fully active user
    I see too much abuse from this. People already click yes or no without a clue as to why the person is being kicked/ban. It's usually from other players telling them that so and so is trolling (in their perspective). Then people assume that person is a troll to ban. I've seen people spam to kick others saying they were trolling when, in fact, the person calling the vote was a troll.

    A lot of admins will just ban or kick you without warning, anyway.
    Don't ever ''get ban''.

    Respect - Justice

    If my posts don't make sense, blame it on my bipolar and carry on. It happens.
    Stark
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff Posts: 2,130 mod
    Voteban is a votekick with a timed ban involved.
    Votekick should NOT have a ban entailed. EVER. If you want someone out for several games, use voteban. urgh.
    Send me a private message if you need me to kill someone "help" with anything.

    The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, “You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I’m just not close enough to get the job done.” - George Carlin.

    Youtube Channel for Sydney Music
    Decoy
  • DecoyDecoy Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159037Members, Super Administrators, Playtest Lead, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer Posts: 400 vanilla
    Okay, so we should just have a voteban option available. I'll revise trello
    UWE Playtest Co-Lead
    coolitic
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members Posts: 799 Fully active user
    So then it's decided that people can be banned by vote? Lol I foresee only bad things.
    Don't ever ''get ban''.

    Respect - Justice

    If my posts don't make sense, blame it on my bipolar and carry on. It happens.
    PelargirAurOn2
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,024 Advanced user
    edited September 2014
    Any way to implement something like if you're kicked say 3 times from the same server in x amount of time (maybe keep that undisclosed to prevent some kind of abuse) then you're automatically banned from server for a day or two?

    Keeps it simple w/ vote kicks as only the only necessary vote and ban takes effect automatically if repeat offenders are detected.

    Similar to @Decoy's idea, but the first 2 kicks do not carry a ban, however the 3rd kick is a more severe ban.
    AurOn2
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members Posts: 799 Fully active user
    2cough wrote: »
    Any way to implement something like if you're kicked say 3 times from the same server in x amount of time (maybe keep that undisclosed to prevent some kind of abuse) then you're automatically banned from server for a day or two?

    Keeps it simple w/ vote kicks as only the only necessary vote and ban takes effect automatically if repeat offenders are detected.

    Similar to @Decoy's idea, but the first 2 kicks do not carry a ban, however the 3rd kick is a more severe ban.

    The same people that vote-kicked them will revote if the person rejoins, usually. So it'd just force people to vote a bunch of times to get a ban.

    If you want a vote-ban then avoid sugar-coating it.

    Either way, I see people banning others because they simply...can. if this goes on the trello list and moves to an update... well, I see nothing good of it. There are admins for a reason...
    Don't ever ''get ban''.

    Respect - Justice

    If my posts don't make sense, blame it on my bipolar and carry on. It happens.
    AurOn2
  • ATFATF Join Date: 2014-05-09 Member: 195944Members Posts: 261
    Too bad an overwhelming number of 'admins' are actually kids with priviledges: Kidmins.

    I have found it to be far more effective to let everything minor slip. Someone wants to spectate on a full server, LET HIM. He'll leave or join up eventually. Someone wants to bite a wall, LET HIM. Once a marine passes he is likely to stop and bite the marine, passively getting involved back into the game and forgetting about biting the wall. You've just turned a troll into a normal player.
    If a kidmin warns and pushes him around, negative thoughts emerge.

    Sorry, just wanted to get this out there because it is a real problem in NS2: Restrictive server settings and kidmins.

    Regarding the voteban, agreed with Rapgod. In general the (non-adolescent) server operators are a much better judge for a temp ban than a crowd of players. However it's a fact that even they need sleep and have a life, well most of them.. and won't always be around. Letting those really bad trolls have their way is no good.

    Random shower thought: Someone who massively disrupts the game and empties servers... if it's a cheater they get VAC banned by steam globally. So a troll that effectively does the same damage, may need to be dealt with in a similar global manner ?
    RapGod
  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Posts: 1,197 mod
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    Voteban is a votekick with a timed ban involved.
    Votekick should NOT have a ban entailed. EVER. If you want someone out for several games, use voteban. urgh.


    It's a really bad idea. It has already been stated in the messages above but adding a voteban on the vanilla game cannot be a good thing. There are already people abusing with the votekick. Remember the ton of people that vote F1 just 'cause this is a vote, those that don't care and so vote F1/F2 randomly. + if there are people not so smart that have no idea what's happening on the server and decide to vote YES. It is already obvious to find out plenty of abuses from players with the votekick, quite rare of course but that's definitely why a voteban is going to be worse.

    I think this is the reason UWE didn't allow voteban on the servers. I suppose the admins can if needed disable this option (like the other votes) or even fit the time/delay that occurs after being banned through that vote. But let's be honest, people will abuse of this, depending of the community or the servers I guess.

    There's no good solution in my opinion, people can abuse using votekick (if a ban delay is added) and voteban. That's why votekick is the perfect option 'cause even if it was a mistake, it was a troll from the one who started the vote, that said guy can join again the server though. But if I have to choose, be sure the votekick changes are really better regarding the various abuses with that voteban.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


    RapGod
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,024 Advanced user
    edited September 2014
    RapGod wrote: »

    The same people that vote-kicked them will revote if the person rejoins, usually. So it'd just force people to vote a bunch of times to get a ban.

    If you want a vote-ban then avoid sugar-coating it.

    Either way, I see people banning others because they simply...can. if this goes on the trello list and moves to an update... well, I see nothing good of it. There are admins for a reason...

    I never said I wanted a vote ban. And yes, I said enough vote kicks should equal a ban that's not just a slap on the wrist like 15 min. It would indeed force people to vote a few times, that's the whole point. I'd rather do it 3 times than like 20 over and over.

    The other day I was on a server, this troll was getting kicked CONSTANTLY and rejoining over and over. Everybody else on the server was playing legit and there wasn't a time the vote didn't pass. Had to have been at least 10+ kicks. If this were in effect, we wouldn't have to vote ban him. Just kick him 3 times, and he cant come back for a day or 2. He's done it to himself really. There's other servers he can go mess with. Seems fair to me.

    To abuse someone into ban in this way would really take a whole server full of trolls/idiots to revote to kick successfully 3 times. Wouldn't be "just because they simply can" in this manner because it would take time, and by the 2nd kick, if the victim has a brain, and wants to actually play (i.e. serious player w/ different opinions who enflames team and gets kicked) he won't go back to the server where he's not welcome, he'd find another. Not extraordinarily simple IMO, unless the player is actually a troll, in which case, it should be an easy decision for the rest of the server.

    I see far less potential for abuse this way.
    Post edited by 2cough on
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff Posts: 2,130 mod
    Well if it says "vote kick and ban " after the third votekick, i don't see any reason why it shouldn't happen.
    i still dislike the whole votekick bans people though (on account i've been votekicked for un-things, before)
    Send me a private message if you need me to kill someone "help" with anything.

    The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, “You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I’m just not close enough to get the job done.” - George Carlin.

    Youtube Channel for Sydney Music
  • Warforce17Warforce17 Join Date: 2013-09-12 Member: 188154Members Posts: 87 Fully active user
    edited September 2014
    You should limit voteban maybe to a reasonable amount of players or let the ban vote timer run out like it used to be.
  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Posts: 1,197 mod
    Anyway, there's no perfect solution but there's something to be done.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


Sign In or Register to comment.