Would a handicap system benefit player retention?

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  • RaZDaZRaZDaZ Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167331Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 465 Fully active user
    edited August 2014
    @dePARA But isn't that something to do with the quick join feature especially before the revamp? How many rookies actually used it? Agreed though. Modern gamers are unbelievably impatient, not willing to put effort in to get satisfaction, just obsessed with gimicks (goat simulator and DayZ) and fast food gaming.

    Most people haven't bothered with dedicated server lists for years, everything has matchmaking nowadays, people just want to click "Play" and go.
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  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    RaZDaZ wrote: »
    A proper tutorial that is FORCED. I don't care what anyone thinks about convenience but most rookies dont care about it, get owned and never come back. Force them to complete a basic tutorial THEN allow them to use the server browser. Following this, expand the current tutorial into advanced gameplay and eventually challenges like reach A-B in X time. Unfortunately, because the AI bots haven't been expanded upon, it's difficult to create tutorials that cover everything this game has to offer.

    Which is why that a rookie/casual mode is not a bad idea tbh for new players. Default off for most servers. Rookie friendly servers have it enabled, rename "Rookie Friendly" to "Rookie Mode".

    CS:GO uses a rookie mode. Cash is earned much more, intermission times are lowered, you always have armor and everyone on CT has disarming tools. Just a few small changes like this from the vanilla game would be much better than changing certain values like damage and hp.

    I propose "Rookie Mode" with just a few examples on what would be good to change imo although bare in mind, it's not a model that even I would consider "balanced, just throwing it out there, this is not 50/50 balance I'm trying to suggest but a mod that would limit the downtime when losing resources:

    - Respawn rates are increased by 50%
    - PRes costs for items/upgrades/lifeforms lowered overall but not all with resource rates increased maybe 25%
    - Welders reduced to 1Pres or even free (maybe spawn with one?)
    - Mines reduced to 12Pres, lowering them too much becomes dangerous
    - Grenades increased to 6Pres but has 3 grenades in total instead of 2
    - Shotgun reduced to 12Pres (cheapest of the options but most difficult to use)
    - Grenade Launcher reduced to 18Pres
    - Flamethrowers reduced to 15Pres
    - Jetpacks reduced to 5 or 10Pres
    - Exosuits reduced to 30Pres, dual weapon reduced to 10Pres
    - Gorges reduced to 5Pres
    - Lerks reduced 18Pres (marines already have +1+1 at the start so wouldn't be too alarming)
    - Fades reduced to 25-30Pres
    - Onos reduced to 40-45Pres
    - Evolve traits reduced overall as well, 2 for lerks 3 for fades and 5 for onos
    - Fade Eggs can be dropped at 6 biomass for 60TRes
    - Onos Eggs can be dropped at 8 biomass for 80TRes
    - Minigun Exosuits can be dropped, requires 3 CCs for 80TRes

    - TRes costs for some structures lowered like RTs and IPs, respawning eggs is free
    - TRes costs for some structures like Whips and Sentries increased, less PvESelection 2 is better
    - Game at the start, both teams have a set amount of prebuilt structures and research already completed
    - Aliens have 2 biomass researched, shift hive researched, 3 spurs down near the hive, a drifter, 1 whip and 1 crag
    - Marines have arms lab with +1 armor and +1 weapon researched, an extra IP, an observatory and an armory
    - When you've invested into resources such as paying for a JP SHOTGUN WELDER, about 38 res in the normal game, if you die then you're refunded 25% of what you lost

    Changing the indirect mechanics like res rate and costs and starting tech I think will help the most. Keep people playing the big guns like fades and onos or exosuit, shotguns rather than flashing their lifeform or investment and being back down to rifle marine or skulk for another 15 minutes. I will boldly state that is why so many people can't last long in this game because at least with weapons like GLs or shotguns or fades and onos, they have a shot at killing even a good player with their well earned rest investment. Lowering costs keeps the player playing with higher tech for longer which is a good thing for rookies because atm, at best, they have a glimpse of a new lifeform and then flash and dont get it back for 20 mins.

    TL;DR - A mod that favors an early game kickstart, some initial tech given and a few extra structures. This is the catalyst that propells people into a stable game that allows them to get their lifeforms/equipment and tech quickly. It also attempts to fix the problem of downtime, spending less time as a skulk or rifle marine by lowering costs of most upgrades and research. Weapons and lifeforms cost less by a small amount with a slight boost to res rates makes it easier to get back into JP, exos, fades and onos. Doesn't buff or nerf weapon and hp values or even handicapps different players.

    I pulled all this together in 15 mins but I think that an NS2 Rookie Mode Mod would be interesting to say the least.

    Res adjustments definitely seem like a good idea. A suggestion though, for lifeforms it would be possible to give rookies a "second chance" without making lerk/fade/onos actually come out onto the field too much earlier by reducing the cost to RE-buy a lifeform. Alternatively, a portion of the res cost could be refunded either when you buy the lifeform (so you still need 20 res to buy lerk, but you only actually spend 10), when you die with that lifeform, or when you die TOO FAST with that lifeform.

    Marines can get away with flat cost reductions or Pres increases because the stuff still has to be unlocked by the commander, so it won't be fielded any earlier.
  • RaZDaZRaZDaZ Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167331Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 465 Fully active user
    edited August 2014
    @sotanaht My suggestion is more of a proof of concept, an idea to contemplate rather than a strict list of adjustments. I don't know if it could work but I find it better than adjusting damage and health values. CS:GO gives you a huge amount of money in rookie mode, you can buy whatever you want and apart from the first eco round, there's never another one which gives you time to play with different weapons without having to worry about the cost-investment or whether you lose it.

    The main point behind it? Less downtime in everything. Respawning is faster, getting res is faster, buying weapons is faster, teching up is faster. As experienced players and as competitive players, we understand that downtime is important. Capitalizing on an advantage, taking out lifeforms/weapons and res are important, reducing the team to the basic lifeform and roles are important. We get this and its an important part of winning but a rookie won't understand this.

    This isn't a mode that I particularly like. Getting a fade kill with a shotgun solo is so awesome to feel and seeing him back a minute later with another is a ballbreaker to me but I honestly think that less downtime for rookies is good. Gives them more time to learn, more time to play with big guns and big lifeforms which makes for a more enjoyable game while still keeping some loose strategy.

    Your idea is interesting. I've also thought about just drastically increasing res flow rather than adjusting res costs which might be a better idea.

    Some people say that combat mod is the Rookie Mode and I do agree with you. However, combat mod within the main NS2 is currently bug ridden, bad maps overall and balanced poorly. The combat standalone is a different game with different weapons and rules. Not really an option IF devs are considering a rookie mode/handicap system.
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  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members Posts: 323 Fully active user
    No, a handicap wouldn't help and it's a dumb suggestion. You want this game to get a larger player base? You need to dumb down the gameplay mechanics. It's as simple as that. Everything down to the map layouts are just too overwhelming for the average gamer, let alone trying to play something like the Lerk. It's just too complex of a game for the average gamer. The Marine side isn't so bad, as some mechanics carry over from other FPS games, but the skill curve to play Alien is absolutely absurd.
  • KungFuJVKungFuJV Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15167Members Posts: 148 Fully active user
    Sounds like a mix between combat and classic...which sounds like a good idea to me.. they get the strategy part of classic, and they get the forgiving part of combat.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,829 admin
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    No, a handicap wouldn't help and it's a dumb suggestion. You want this game to get a larger player base? You need to dumb down the gameplay mechanics. It's as simple as that. Everything down to the map layouts are just too overwhelming for the average gamer, let alone trying to play something like the Lerk. It's just too complex of a game for the average gamer. The Marine side isn't so bad, as some mechanics carry over from other FPS games, but the skill curve to play Alien is absolutely absurd.

    If we're going to dumb down the game mechanics, then what's the point? Go play CoD if the game is too complicated for you. (Not YOU you, just saying in general.)
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    No, a handicap wouldn't help and it's a dumb suggestion. You want this game to get a larger player base? You need to dumb down the gameplay mechanics. It's as simple as that. Everything down to the map layouts are just too overwhelming for the average gamer, let alone trying to play something like the Lerk. It's just too complex of a game for the average gamer. The Marine side isn't so bad, as some mechanics carry over from other FPS games, but the skill curve to play Alien is absolutely absurd.

    If we're going to dumb down the game mechanics, then what's the point? Go play CoD if the game is too complicated for you. (Not YOU you, just saying in general.)

    Making a game less complicated != dumbing it down. There's quite a profound difference between depth and complexity. You want depth in a game, not complexity.

    Depth is the set of possibillities with every piece of knowledge you have of the game - as such depth is limited to your own imagination and skill to execute it.

    Complexity is the amount of 'stuff' that is in the game that you need to learn before you can even start learning the basics. This includes, wtf are babbler-eggs and webs and welders?
    Depth can often be bought with complexity, which is what UWE have done with NS2 by adding more and more useless content - but at a terrible price, which is what you see now.

    Some of the most in-depth strategy games in history are simple as fuck. Chess being the prime example, only a handful of different pieces, simple board layout and a limited amount of rules.

    There's quite a sufficient amount of depth in just learning the basics of how to get the optimal position in NS2 to maximize your damage output in combat. We don't need any more useless content in this game to supply the game with depth. That being said, it's too late to remove any of it now. Best just learn from this mistake and try not to commit it again when they make NS3.
    d4rkAlf
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,829 admin
    edited September 2014
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    No, a handicap wouldn't help and it's a dumb suggestion. You want this game to get a larger player base? You need to dumb down the gameplay mechanics. It's as simple as that. Everything down to the map layouts are just too overwhelming for the average gamer, let alone trying to play something like the Lerk. It's just too complex of a game for the average gamer. The Marine side isn't so bad, as some mechanics carry over from other FPS games, but the skill curve to play Alien is absolutely absurd.

    If we're going to dumb down the game mechanics, then what's the point? Go play CoD if the game is too complicated for you. (Not YOU you, just saying in general.)

    Making a game less complicated != dumbing it down. There's quite a profound difference between depth and complexity. You want depth in a game, not complexity.

    Depth is the set of possibillities with every piece of knowledge you have of the game - as such depth is limited to your own imagination and skill to execute it.

    Complexity is the amount of 'stuff' that is in the game that you need to learn before you can even start learning the basics. This includes, wtf are babbler-eggs and webs and welders?
    Depth can often be bought with complexity, which is what UWE have done with NS2 by adding more and more useless content - but at a terrible price, which is what you see now.

    Some of the most in-depth strategy games in history are simple as fuck. Chess being the prime example, only a handful of different pieces, simple board layout and a limited amount of rules.

    There's quite a sufficient amount of depth in just learning the basics of how to get the optimal position in NS2 to maximize your damage output in combat. We don't need any more useless content in this game to supply the game with depth. That being said, it's too late to remove any of it now. Best just learn from this mistake and try not to commit it again when they make NS3.

    HE said dumbing it down, not me... ;)

    EDIT: Oh I see what you're saying. But on the whole, NS2 ISN'T that complicated. I mean... no more than Starcraft 2, and that's absurdly popular, so we can't really pin it on that.
    d4rkAlf
  • d4rkAlfd4rkAlf Sweden Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189309Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 170 Advanced user
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    HE said dumbing it down, not me... ;)

    EDIT: Oh I see what you're saying. But on the whole, NS2 ISN'T that complicated. I mean... no more than Starcraft 2, and that's absurdly popular, so we can't really pin it on that.

    Yeah, I agree with you Starcraft 2 and NS2 are about the same complexity, however the target market is wildly different. In order to enjoy NS2, not only do you have to understand the strategy and decision-making behind a RTS, you also need the aim and reflexes of a FPS. It is this combination that makes NS2 such a hard nut to crack.

    An excellent video on the subject "Depth vs. Complexity" has been made by Extra Credit:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL4st0blGU
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    Starcraft 2 is actually suffering from player retention as well atm.

    But it's apples and oranges, because SC2 had the benefit of combining not just the two major rts franchises SC:BW and War3 - but every competetive rts player gathered in the hype for the game that would eventually spark the e-sports movement. SC2 had a monopoly on e-sports for a long ass time and they had the money to support that shit. So there was no competition, meaning that they could educate their viewers despite the relatively high level of complexity.
  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members Posts: 323 Fully active user
    edited September 2014
    Really? We're comparing an indie game that probably had little to no advertising budget to a Blizzard game and comparing player base? LOL

    Take a minute to realize Blizzard spends millions on advertising their games. They had national TV commercials and huge web advertising campaigns for Starcraft 2 for months and months.
  • RaZDaZRaZDaZ Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167331Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 465 Fully active user
    edited September 2014
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    Really? We're comparing an indie game that probably had little to no advertising budget to a Blizzard game and comparing player base? LOL

    Take a minute to realize Blizzard spends millions on advertising their games. They had national TV commercials and huge web advertising campaigns for Starcraft 2 for months and months.

    Yes but there are parallels. Starcraft is flat out, the hardest game out there, nothing comes close, not even DOTA or CS. The level of skill to play it is so enormous that even B-team korean pros very rarely can stand against the top korean pros yet the B-teamers would do very well in a foreign (outside korea) tournament. NS2 for a shooter is also a hard game or at least, one with a tough learning curve same as SC2. Premier division pros can stomp even division 1 pros. SC2 has advertising, an already established playerbase/fanbase and a legacy yet it still can't even come close to matching the player numbers of LoL or DOTA2, even CS is taking it over quickly.

    SC2 suffers from player retention because:
    - Costs money to play
    - Has an enormous learning curve (terran especially is much harder to play than the other two)
    - Focused on solo play and balance
    - Cheesefest play
    - Has an enormous skill-cap
    - Doesn't have customization except for portraits and 1 or 2 skins per race
    - Has a lack of game modes
    - No power progression
    - Focus on macro play which doesn't appeal to everyone (long periods of maintaining economy and infrastructure)
    - Balance and design problems

    NS2 has some of these issues.
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  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    Really? We're comparing an indie game that probably had little to no advertising budget to a Blizzard game and comparing player base? LOL

    Take a minute to realize Blizzard spends millions on advertising their games. They had national TV commercials and huge web advertising campaigns for Starcraft 2 for months and months.

    But advertising has NOTHING to do with player retention (percentage). We aren't trying to get 4 million players when I'm not even sure NS2 has sold a million copies, but if we had even 10% of the people who have actually bought the game still playing it from time to time we would probably have 10 times as many concurrent players as we do now.
    d4rkAlf
  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members Posts: 323 Fully active user
    edited September 2014
    RaZDaZ wrote: »
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    Really? We're comparing an indie game that probably had little to no advertising budget to a Blizzard game and comparing player base? LOL

    Take a minute to realize Blizzard spends millions on advertising their games. They had national TV commercials and huge web advertising campaigns for Starcraft 2 for months and months.

    Yes but there are parallels. Starcraft is flat out, the hardest game out there, nothing comes close, not even DOTA or CS. The level of skill to play it is so enormous that even B-team korean pros very rarely can stand against the top korean pros yet the B-teamers would do very well in a foreign (outside korea) tournament. NS2 for a shooter is also a hard game or at least, one with a tough learning curve same as SC2. Premier division pros can stomp even division 1 pros. SC2 has advertising, an already established playerbase/fanbase and a legacy yet it still can't even come close to matching the player numbers of LoL or DOTA2, even CS is taking it over quickly.

    It doesn't matter if it's "the hardest game ever". It had matchmaking and a large player pool. No one who buys the game on sale is going to be pitted against "B-team korean pros", lol. A casual could buy the game and have fun because they were matched against someone who has a similar skill level.

    Imagine if people that bought the game and were constantly thrown in the Diamond and Master League against people using advanced strategies? How long do you think they would keep playing? The amount of people that stick around would be so low. That's essentially what happens on NS2 sales.

    There is just way too much to learn and learning it isn't fun when you're repeatedly getting stomped round after round by some guys with 800hrs.

    TLDR; my overall point from my posts: Get over the player count. NS2 is a niche game for a niche audience. Unless the game goes F2P , you won't do much at this point in the games life to grow the playerbase.
    Post edited by ns2isgood on
    DCMAKER
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members Posts: 799 Fully active user
    This thread is nearly pointless. You can't bring that many people into the game. The players that stick around are a lot better than the greens. Team stacking hasn't changed. The game is complicated (and continues to be with new features) and not newbie friendly. This game won't make any more significant sales. Not hatin', just sayin'.

    Giving the greens any handicap will screw them when they try a real game. Tutorials are the only way to help new people. Sadly, uwe found no time for such an important thing. At this point, even a tutorial will probably fail to get and retain players. It doesn't fix the problems above, though.
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  • MuckyMcFlyMuckyMcFly Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 616 Fully active user
    Would a handicap system benefit player retention?

    No.


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  • DCMAKERDCMAKER Join Date: 2014-09-02 Member: 198219Members Posts: 52 Fully active user
    edited September 2014
    [/quote]It doesn't matter if it's "the hardest game ever". It had matchmaking and a large player pool. No one who buys the game on sale is going to be pitted against "B-team korean pros", lol. A casual could buy the game and have fun because they were matched against someone who has a similar skill level.

    Imagine if people that bought the game and were constantly thrown in the Diamond and Master League against people using advanced strategies? How long do you think they would keep playing? The amount of people that stick around would be so low. That's essentially what happens on NS2 sales.

    There is just way too much to learn and learning it isn't fun when you're repeatedly getting stomped round after round by some guys with 800hrs.

    TLDR; my overall point from my posts: Get over the player count. NS2 is a niche game for a niche audience. Unless the game goes F2P , you won't do much at this point in the games life to grow the playerbase.[/quote]

    Something that helps i think is the new menu for ranking on a server...that would have helped more a long time ago. Also i think these suggestions below would help soften the skill issue and make newbs stick around longer. I remember when i first started i got smacked like no tomorrow...well still do at times but not so badly since i have gotten a bit better. The suggestions below should give newbs better time in various classes to practice and feel like they are getting something out of the game and dying isn't completely the end of the game. Don't get me wrong you should focus on not dying but if your a newb its going to happen a lot.

    Also i do think it would be a good idea to make a server option to limit max player rank! This would create a newb haven and allow them to have a more fair game and keep vets from smashing.
    RapGod wrote: »
    This thread is nearly pointless. You can't bring that many people into the game. The players that stick around are a lot better than the greens. Team stacking hasn't changed. The game is complicated (and continues to be with new features) and not newbie friendly. This game won't make any more significant sales. Not hatin', just sayin'.

    Giving the greens any handicap will screw them when they try a real game. Tutorials are the only way to help new people. Sadly, uwe found no time for such an important thing. At this point, even a tutorial will probably fail to get and retain players. It doesn't fix the problems above, though.

    This should solve that problem.


    ***My opinion on the only way to keep core game play intact with providing newbs a good learning experience. Making a repurchase cheaper and an incentive to stick to a single weapon/class for a longer period will keep it as balanced as possible and be conductive of learning. Also allowing a server option to cap max rank allowed to join would be crucial.***

    i personally like the idea of giving the rookie more armor and health but it causes more problems then it solves. If you reduce the amount of damage they take or increase the damage they do or affect other players stuff that will ruin their ability to learn the game, which doesn't benefit anyone. If they get bit for 75 health from a skulk they still feel and see it. It is easy to understand the change from 150 health/150 armor to 100 health/90 armor. Also these bonuses....if possible would only exist when facing none newbs because this gets all merky when a newb hits a newb and doesn't get why it now takes 5 bites instead of 2 but this adds some confusing also when he goes from fighting a newb and vet because his health keeps changing or whatever.

    I like the health/armor idea but it really makes stuff merky. I do think adding a res boost would be a good idea and possibly the best idea. OR maybe a better idea is just reducing the cost of items instead of res boost.

    This is what i would recommend that would not dramatically alter game play and help newbs learn and retain players.

    Do not change health or armor (because of what was stated above newb vs newb issue)
    do not increase res gen
    change item cost/evol cost
    make the starting out cost the same. removes the issue of early onos/exo and all that.
    make repurchase of the exact same item half or something but!!! If you switch items you loose the reduced costs. The reason for this is that you want to keep the newbs from having a huge advantage and you want them to learn. You learn better by using the same weapon or unit over and over. If you go from onos to lerk to skulk to fade, you never spend enough consecutive time in a single unit. The continuous time in a single unit/weapon is crucial for learning.

    Also i would recommend setting some sort of limits or restrictions so newbs can't give weapons away or spam grenades/mines.

    I would say don't allow newbs to be able to drop weapons by using g or by dying.
    Also make repurchase of weapons 50% of normal cost but first cost being standard and savings disappears if they get different item in that class. (you buy flame but then buy a shot gun..savings lost. jet pack and exo this doesn't apply (after first purchase it is 50% for rest of round and doesn't change if you switch jet/exo/exo)
    Allow mines/grenades to be 80% of standard cost after first purchase. It allows them to use them more often but not able to spam them.

    ***Also allowing a server option to cap max player rank would be good. Having a dedicated server for ranks 1-8 would do wonders.***

    ***
    I think these reduced cost structures with the incentive to stick to a certain weapon/class allows for the best balancing, retention, and learning experience possible. It might have room to be refined more but messing with anything else will affect gameplay in a negative way. You want the newbs to get experience without affecting other players and core gameplay.

    Making a repurchase cheaper and an incentive to stick to a single weapon/class for a longer period will keep it as balanced as possible and be conductive of learning.

    If these things were done before the next sale it would probably get a lot more players to stick around. Every steam sale gets NS2 a huge flood of new players but that lasts only for a month tops before it goes back to normal. I also think if the NS2 did a sale/free weekend after these newb features were added it would help a lot but NS2 needs to market that these new balancing features were added! you might get some people to come back and try the game knowing these options are available.
    ***
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members Posts: 799 Fully active user
    DCMAKER wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if it's "the hardest game ever". It had matchmaking and a large player pool. No one who buys the game on sale is going to be pitted against "B-team korean pros", lol. A casual could buy the game and have fun because they were matched against someone who has a similar skill level.

    Imagine if people that bought the game and were constantly thrown in the Diamond and Master League against people using advanced strategies? How long do you think they would keep playing? The amount of people that stick around would be so low. That's essentially what happens on NS2 sales.

    There is just way too much to learn and learning it isn't fun when you're repeatedly getting stomped round after round by some guys with 800hrs.

    TLDR; my overall point from my posts: Get over the player count. NS2 is a niche game for a niche audience. Unless the game goes F2P , you won't do much at this point in the games life to grow the playerbase.[/quote]

    Something that helps i think is the new menu for ranking on a server...that would have helped more a long time ago. Also i think these suggestions below would help soften the skill issue and make newbs stick around longer. I remember when i first started i got smacked like no tomorrow...well still do at times but not so badly since i have gotten a bit better. The suggestions below should give newbs better time in various classes to practice and feel like they are getting something out of the game and dying isn't completely the end of the game. Don't get me wrong you should focus on not dying but if your a newb its going to happen a lot.

    Also i do think it would be a good idea to make a server option to limit max player rank! This would create a newb haven and allow them to have a more fair game and keep vets from smashing.
    RapGod wrote: »
    This thread is nearly pointless. You can't bring that many people into the game. The players that stick around are a lot better than the greens. Team stacking hasn't changed. The game is complicated (and continues to be with new features) and not newbie friendly. This game won't make any more significant sales. Not hatin', just sayin'.

    Giving the greens any handicap will screw them when they try a real game. Tutorials are the only way to help new people. Sadly, uwe found no time for such an important thing. At this point, even a tutorial will probably fail to get and retain players. It doesn't fix the problems above, though.

    This should solve that problem.


    ***My opinion on the only way to keep core game play intact with providing newbs a good learning experience. Making a repurchase cheaper and an incentive to stick to a single weapon/class for a longer period will keep it as balanced as possible and be conductive of learning. Also allowing a server option to cap max rank allowed to join would be crucial.***

    i personally like the idea of giving the rookie more armor and health but it causes more problems then it solves. If you reduce the amount of damage they take or increase the damage they do or affect other players stuff that will ruin their ability to learn the game, which doesn't benefit anyone. If they get bit for 75 health from a skulk they still feel and see it. It is easy to understand the change from 150 health/150 armor to 100 health/90 armor. Also these bonuses....if possible would only exist when facing none newbs because this gets all merky when a newb hits a newb and doesn't get why it now takes 5 bites instead of 2 but this adds some confusing also when he goes from fighting a newb and vet because his health keeps changing or whatever.

    I like the health/armor idea but it really makes stuff merky. I do think adding a res boost would be a good idea and possibly the best idea. OR maybe a better idea is just reducing the cost of items instead of res boost.

    This is what i would recommend that would not dramatically alter game play and help newbs learn and retain players.

    Do not change health or armor (because of what was stated above newb vs newb issue)
    do not increase res gen
    change item cost/evol cost
    make the starting out cost the same. removes the issue of early onos/exo and all that.
    make repurchase of the exact same item half or something but!!! If you switch items you loose the reduced costs. The reason for this is that you want to keep the newbs from having a huge advantage and you want them to learn. You learn better by using the same weapon or unit over and over. If you go from onos to lerk to skulk to fade, you never spend enough consecutive time in a single unit. The continuous time in a single unit/weapon is crucial for learning.

    Also i would recommend setting some sort of limits or restrictions so newbs can't give weapons away or spam grenades/mines.

    I would say don't allow newbs to be able to drop weapons by using g or by dying.
    Also make repurchase of weapons 50% of normal cost but first cost being standard and savings disappears if they get different item in that class. (you buy flame but then buy a shot gun..savings lost. jet pack and exo this doesn't apply (after first purchase it is 50% for rest of round and doesn't change if you switch jet/exo/exo)
    Allow mines/grenades to be 80% of standard cost after first purchase. It allows them to use them more often but not able to spam them.

    ***Also allowing a server option to cap max player rank would be good. Having a dedicated server for ranks 1-8 would do wonders.***

    ***
    I think these reduced cost structures with the incentive to stick to a certain weapon/class allows for the best balancing, retention, and learning experience possible. It might have room to be refined more but messing with anything else will affect gameplay in a negative way. You want the newbs to get experience without affecting other players and core gameplay.

    Making a repurchase cheaper and an incentive to stick to a single weapon/class for a longer period will keep it as balanced as possible and be conductive of learning.

    If these things were done before the next sale it would probably get a lot more players to stick around. Every steam sale gets NS2 a huge flood of new players but that lasts only for a month tops before it goes back to normal. I also think if the NS2 did a sale/free weekend after these newb features were added it would help a lot but NS2 needs to market that these new balancing features were added! you might get some people to come back and try the game knowing these options are available.
    ***[/quote]

    That'd have to be a mod to test. Personally, I still think it will do more harm than good. It will still give new people a different version of the game. They'd get destroyed in a pub.

    If you're talking about an ns2:evolution™®© game to make that helps people learn ns2, id agree. Im so tired.
    Don't ever ''get ban''.

    Respect - Justice

    If my posts don't make sense, blame it on my bipolar and carry on. It happens.
  • DCMAKERDCMAKER Join Date: 2014-09-02 Member: 198219Members Posts: 52 Fully active user
    @RapGod‌ How does it change the game to give newbs a chance to be able to rebuy something more easily? All the core components are the same just that they can regain what they lost when they died more easily. It also reinforces learning my giving them an incentive to retry their last load again. It won't affect core play either by marines getting exact weapons (buy drop give to teammate) because newb weapons can't get dropped because they are reduced value. Though you could have 1 out of 2 be dropped since that would equal 1 original value weapon if that would be an issue.

    Also aliens can't get early onos because first evol costs the same. They may have more frequent Onoses but that doesn't really matter. A good player doesn't die...newb does so it doesn't really matter. A player can't spawn more Onos for teammates. I don't see how this affects gameplay at all let alone CORE gameplay besides for the newb. I would welcome a newb being able to access good stuff more often because it would give vets higher lifeforms, better uses to kill, which means more of a challenge without affecting the basics. It just gives the newb more play time in a certain class to gain skill. Once X rank is broken/X time or whatever it disappears.
  • RaZDaZRaZDaZ Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167331Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 465 Fully active user
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    RaZDaZ wrote: »
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    Really? We're comparing an indie game that probably had little to no advertising budget to a Blizzard game and comparing player base? LOL

    Take a minute to realize Blizzard spends millions on advertising their games. They had national TV commercials and huge web advertising campaigns for Starcraft 2 for months and months.

    Yes but there are parallels. Starcraft is flat out, the hardest game out there, nothing comes close, not even DOTA or CS. The level of skill to play it is so enormous that even B-team korean pros very rarely can stand against the top korean pros yet the B-teamers would do very well in a foreign (outside korea) tournament. NS2 for a shooter is also a hard game or at least, one with a tough learning curve same as SC2. Premier division pros can stomp even division 1 pros. SC2 has advertising, an already established playerbase/fanbase and a legacy yet it still can't even come close to matching the player numbers of LoL or DOTA2, even CS is taking it over quickly.

    It doesn't matter if it's "the hardest game ever". It had matchmaking and a large player pool. No one who buys the game on sale is going to be pitted against "B-team korean pros", lol. A casual could buy the game and have fun because they were matched against someone who has a similar skill level.

    Imagine if people that bought the game and were constantly thrown in the Diamond and Master League against people using advanced strategies? How long do you think they would keep playing? The amount of people that stick around would be so low. That's essentially what happens on NS2 sales.

    There is just way too much to learn and learning it isn't fun when you're repeatedly getting stomped round after round by some guys with 800hrs.

    TLDR; my overall point from my posts: Get over the player count. NS2 is a niche game for a niche audience. Unless the game goes F2P , you won't do much at this point in the games life to grow the playerbase.

    Yes but in NS2 you have a choice of which servers you go to, that's not the same as SC2 but you are right, matchmaking in NS2 would be amazing. I play on KKG which has captains mode and in that mode, you have a much higher chance of getting an even game (pseudo matchmaking kinda) which makes NS2 amazing to play and witness.

    My point mainly was that even with matchmaking, SC2 is struggling to retain a solid playerbase compared to other games with matchmaking which indicates to me that matchmaking is not the only problem in player retention.
    NS2 ID: RaZDaZ
    Old School AvP2 Vet
  • DCMAKERDCMAKER Join Date: 2014-09-02 Member: 198219Members Posts: 52 Fully active user
    edited September 2014
    RaZDaZ wrote: »
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    RaZDaZ wrote: »
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    Really? We're comparing an indie game that probably had little to no advertising budget to a Blizzard game and comparing player base? LOL

    Take a minute to realize Blizzard spends millions on advertising their games. They had national TV commercials and huge web advertising campaigns for Starcraft 2 for months and months.

    Yes but there are parallels. Starcraft is flat out, the hardest game out there, nothing comes close, not even DOTA or CS. The level of skill to play it is so enormous that even B-team korean pros very rarely can stand against the top korean pros yet the B-teamers would do very well in a foreign (outside korea) tournament. NS2 for a shooter is also a hard game or at least, one with a tough learning curve same as SC2. Premier division pros can stomp even division 1 pros. SC2 has advertising, an already established playerbase/fanbase and a legacy yet it still can't even come close to matching the player numbers of LoL or DOTA2, even CS is taking it over quickly.

    It doesn't matter if it's "the hardest game ever". It had matchmaking and a large player pool. No one who buys the game on sale is going to be pitted against "B-team korean pros", lol. A casual could buy the game and have fun because they were matched against someone who has a similar skill level.

    Imagine if people that bought the game and were constantly thrown in the Diamond and Master League against people using advanced strategies? How long do you think they would keep playing? The amount of people that stick around would be so low. That's essentially what happens on NS2 sales.

    There is just way too much to learn and learning it isn't fun when you're repeatedly getting stomped round after round by some guys with 800hrs.

    TLDR; my overall point from my posts: Get over the player count. NS2 is a niche game for a niche audience. Unless the game goes F2P , you won't do much at this point in the games life to grow the playerbase.

    Yes but in NS2 you have a choice of which servers you go to, that's not the same as SC2 but you are right, matchmaking in NS2 would be amazing. I play on KKG which has captains mode and in that mode, you have a much higher chance of getting an even game (pseudo matchmaking kinda) which makes NS2 amazing to play and witness.

    My point mainly was that even with matchmaking, SC2 is struggling to retain a solid playerbase compared to other games with matchmaking which indicates to me that matchmaking is not the only problem in player retention.

    you pair the option for servers to set rank limits with the options for servers to offer a newb repurchase reduced price rate and i bet we can retain players better. I remember the first NS when i was really young. I barely stuck with it because i died like no tomorrow and was so pissed. I was probably like 12 back then when i first played. There was no the tutorial like now back then and i was clueless. I get why people quit so fast. Thats why i think givign the option to get their last gear/life form back cheaper would help but also not affect gameplay in any meaningful way. A newb re buying an Onos at half price doesn't really change game mechanics or the time frame they can get an onos because first purchase is full price. They also understand the real cost of units from the get go too. With marines the only issue is them dropping and giving weapons away...thats solved by not allowing them to drop or only 1 in 2/3 can be dropped. This negates the potential unbalancing from that. You can also have a rebuy cost 50% but if they die again it foes to 75% cost then 100% cost. They loose a little discount each death. This can help with the potential problem of them not getting the idea of dying and loosing stuff is bad.

    on a side note i looked at that chart and i will say a nice 1000 player base is perfect for keeping servers filled 24/7...this 500 player count sucks. Woozas is never filled anymore :/
  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members Posts: 323 Fully active user
    RaZDaZ wrote: »
    My point mainly was that even with matchmaking, SC2 is struggling to retain a solid playerbase compared to other games with matchmaking which indicates to me that matchmaking is not the only problem in player retention.

    150,000+ people participated in a ladder 3 months ago. That doesn't even account for ranked and unranked pub players. Those numbers surpass a solid playerbase.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/254uj2/ladder_so_far_in_numbers/
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members Posts: 799 Fully active user
    edited September 2014
    DCMAKER wrote: »
    @RapGod‌ How does it change the game to give newbs a chance to be able to rebuy something more easily? All the core components are the same just that they can regain what they lost when they died more easily. It also reinforces learning my giving them an incentive to retry their last load again. It won't affect core play either by marines getting exact weapons (buy drop give to teammate) because newb weapons can't get dropped because they are reduced value. Though you could have 1 out of 2 be dropped since that would equal 1 original value weapon if that would be an issue.

    Also aliens can't get early onos because first evol costs the same. They may have more frequent Onoses but that doesn't really matter. A good player doesn't die...newb does so it doesn't really matter. A player can't spawn more Onos for teammates. I don't see how this affects gameplay at all let alone CORE gameplay besides for the newb. I would welcome a newb being able to access good stuff more often because it would give vets higher lifeforms, better uses to kill, which means more of a challenge without affecting the basics. It just gives the newb more play time in a certain class to gain skill. Once X rank is broken/X time or whatever it disappears.

    I won't argue that those changes are, in fact, changing the core game (although, I believe it is).

    Either way, you're introducing people to an 'easy mode', which will teach them bad strategy in the 'normal' game. I believe that would actually hurt retention; people learn to play one way then get overwhelmed and destroyed in pubs. I foresee new buyers to rage.

    I mean, maybe it'll increase the player base for a little while, that's the problem (little retention).

    Hopefully the combat standalone will increase players (and maybe the retention)- but I doubt it will for ns2 original.

    All my opinion, I could be (and often am) entirely wrong. I don't have a degree in marketing :p .

    Edit - grammer. Probably a lot more typos - iPad.
    Don't ever ''get ban''.

    Respect - Justice

    If my posts don't make sense, blame it on my bipolar and carry on. It happens.
  • DCMAKERDCMAKER Join Date: 2014-09-02 Member: 198219Members Posts: 52 Fully active user
    not trying to be difficult but seriously how does it change core game mechanics...or what do you define as core game mechanics?

    Also how does it teach bad strategy besides they get to rebuy/evole at a slight less cost. They still understand the real cost.
    -Sorry i just dont see how that teaches bad strategy...At least to me it doesn't seem hard to discern that once the newb stage is done...i dont get cheaper repurchases.

    Also you can say it wont affect retention but why do you actually believe that?

    I think it will because it reduces the frustration of a newb always being stuck at a skulk because he dies in 30 seconds because he hasn't mastered the class yet. I think it'll help also retain because it gives newbs a chance to spent more time in a class. Before i would require 50 games to test out the Onos 10 times. Now they get to test it out 20 times. This allows them more time for practice and have fun.

    This will help retention problems IF retention issues are from, lack on time in high life forms/lack of time building experience, learning curve, and lack of "fun" (we all know higher forms are more fun then a skulk...especially when you skulk 90% of the time.)

    Servers that allow capped ranks solves the retention problem of newbs never having a game to play in without getting murdered.

    Please in all seriousness explain your point because i dont see it and i would like to know.
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members Posts: 799 Fully active user
    I said everything I wanted to say. We clearly won't agree.

    Just run a server with cheats on.
    Don't ever ''get ban''.

    Respect - Justice

    If my posts don't make sense, blame it on my bipolar and carry on. It happens.
  • DCMAKERDCMAKER Join Date: 2014-09-02 Member: 198219Members Posts: 52 Fully active user
    you concede then in failure. Good day.
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members Posts: 799 Fully active user
    ^^lol.. must.. resist.... the bait
    Don't ever ''get ban''.

    Respect - Justice

    If my posts don't make sense, blame it on my bipolar and carry on. It happens.
    SaltlickBeigeAlertd4rkAlf
  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Members Posts: 782 Advanced user
    DCMAKER wrote: »
    you concede then in failure. Good day.

    Confirmed: Troll

    BeigeAlertHobocopcaperpd4rkAlf
  • DCMAKERDCMAKER Join Date: 2014-09-02 Member: 198219Members Posts: 52 Fully active user
    edited September 2014
    RapGod wrote: »
    ^^lol.. must.. resist.... the bait

    I said Good DAY! :P

    *Snip* This is not an image board -Ironhorse
    Post edited by IronHorse on
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