Building only custom map server

UncleCrunch · July 2014

(@admin i cant' find the Squad5 forum anymore)

I'm willing to finance a server for one year. It will be only with custom maps (& No combat). So it needs a set of custom maps that can be played. This will be different from the SCC stuff where i see many player that clearly aren't rookies.

Can someone point me the right direction for providers and/or price/ergonomic interface (good stuff) ? I believe in Europe the right place would be London. Oh and what would be the basic mod set (etc.)?

If you want your map to be on the map cycle, subscribe here.

Your map must be in an advanced stage like 75%, no total "grey box" stuff right ! If you know a good map (but the author left) just tell.

I'll try to get stats on maps. The thing will probably be helpful to see what's going on with public play and custom map.

Depending on subscription, i will tell if it's a GO or not.

lotnik190 · July 2014

UncleCrunch wrote: »

I believe in Europe the right place would be London.

Wouldn't France be better?

UncleCrunch wrote: »

Oh and what would be the basic mod set (etc.)?

Shine Administration, NS2+, Badges+, Pregame Plus, NS2 Stats and probably more.

I hope that it won't fail, because it's hard to find community made maps on pubs, so this can make a change. How many slots will have the server? I think that 20-22 is good, there won't be much chaos and server should stay alive.

I wish my map could be there but it is probably impossible. it is only 20% made (rest is basically textured)

Anyway good luck

DaanVanYperen · July 2014

Might want to clarify your intention. Do you want to playtest maps or have a server for people to play custom maps? Seems similar but you'll have to put a big effort in to actually make a server populated, as opposed to having the occasional playtest. Mixing rookies with grey-boxed maps is going to be a giant seeding effort! Doubt you mean green rookies? Are you talking perhaps pub players below a clan / competitive level? Or are you talking totally disorganized teams?

You can go rent a service or rent a whole server. There's many benefits going dedicated server, but I'd go for renting a service if your tech level isn't all there and you want to get a feel for it. SCC rents a service because it frees up time for us to spend elsewhere. There are whole forums that can help you find a good gaming service. http://www.webhostingtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=155
A typical service will set you back 25-30 pounds/month, which gets you a reasonably stable service that occasionally will have issues. Dedicated servers start at a factor of that but will cost you a lot of time to set up and maintain.

You'll be constantly changing the mod list, and service hoster will occasionally just wipe and move your instance, so best to keep the mod list small to avoid issues. For the SCC we typically stick to a basic administration mod and that's about it. Edit: mind you that's for a playtesting setup.

Stats on a playtesting server hasn't been very helpful for us, the maps just change too often to get any reliable information from it. Player stats might be nice though.

Good luck!

GhoulofGSG9 · July 2014

DaanVanYperen wrote: »

Might want to clarify your intention. Do you want to playtest maps or have a server for people to play custom maps? Seems similar but you'll have to put a big effort in to actually make a server populated, as opposed to having the occasional playtest. Mixing rookies with grey-boxed maps is going to be a giant seeding effort! Doubt you mean green rookies? Are you talking perhaps pub players below a clan / competitive level? Or are you talking totally disorganized teams?

You can go rent a service or rent a whole server. There's many benefits going dedicated server, but I'd go for renting a service if your tech level isn't all there and you want to get a feel for it. SCC rents a service because it frees up time for us to spend elsewhere. There are whole forums that can help you find a good gaming service. http://www.webhostingtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=155
A typical service will set you back 25-30 pounds/month, which gets you a reasonably stable service that occasionally will have issues. Dedicated servers start at a factor of that but will cost you a lot of time to set up and maintain.

You'll be constantly changing the mod list, and service hoster will occasionally just wipe and move your instance, so best to keep the mod list small to avoid issues. For the SCC we typically stick to a basic administration mod and that's about it.

Stats on a playtesting server hasn't been very helpful for us, the maps just change too often to get any reliable information from it. Player stats might be nice though.

Good luck!

Ok a little tip from my site (seems like noone knows this ) about a great ns2 hoster:

g-portal the main esl premium server hoster in eu is also offering ns2 server hosting here: http://www.g-portal.de/en/game-server/rent-ns2-server/ ( costs 1 € per slot / month abit less if ypu use prepayment (3.5 -15 %) ).

All g-portal ns2 servers have a i7 cpu (i7 2600k to 3770k), at least 4 GB reserved ram, run at a ssd and a min reserved bandwidth of 1000 mbit/s .

You get full ftp access so hosting custom maps etc. won't be a issue. Also they give you access to the start param file

Instance will be kept at one server module if the server module doesn't die etc. and not more than 2 ns2 server instances will be running at one module at the same time.

Datacenter location of ns2 servers is Frankfurt in Germany. The support is really fast and friendly ( the main server maintainer is basically sleeping in the head datacenter

)

You can easily reset, restart, stop and start (also on a timetable based rules ) the server from the hoster web gui and get access to the webadmin interface of your server.

BTW you get a free 10 slot ts3 or mumble server with each game server.

Want to test performance just check my server

Disclaimer: This post just represents my own opinion and is not posted in my function as CDT dev

BeigeAlert · July 2014

I'd love to see ns2_temple on there.

I'll also throw out a vote for ns2_caged, ns2_light, and ns2_uplift.

Mouse · July 2014

ns2_fusion plz

Pelargir · July 2014

That's a good idea. If the community was more aware of this kind of things and also bigger.

I just want to give my opinion here, SCC server & playtests are definitely the only current solution to test maps publicly. Competition is out of subject here despite my last attempt, and official Maptesters are dead as well. That's why I love the idea, except, that people, I mean, competitive, public & rookie players do not really care about maps unfinished. Stupid it is, but true.

Like any popular server, you need to show it everywhere & make it by yourself famous, to have players on it. In general, it works like this, you need the good performances, mods, host & MAPS. And here is the problem, if people don't want to play new or in progress maps, what do you want to do? SCC can do it because they know enough people to gather them on their server & Mumble & it's also because they want to improve their maps.

What's the purpose of your server except show the maps?

I'd like the idea if the community was more concerned about maps. They already hate Descent, Eclipse & Kodiak that are officials now. What's their mind about uncompleted maps?

If you can succeed to make it real, active & people are happy to discover new maps from the community mappers, then, good job. I hope it will be the case. But personally, I even won't try to give money for a such public server when you know unofficial maps aren't the concern of the overall community.

PS: it's not a criticism about SCC or your idea, only the mentality about the maps.

SamusDroid · July 2014

UWE had modbox servers for a few months, and they were almost never full. Seeding and keeping the server full would take quite a bit of effort.

Vetinari · July 2014

As the others said, you'd have to seed that server almost constantly. The idea of raising awareness of community maps is not bad, though.

@Pelargir in my experience, Descent has been accepted by now. At least in Europe. (I think quite some people actually consider refinery worse)

Pelargir · July 2014

F0rdPrefect wrote: »

As the others said, you'd have to seed that server almost constantly. The idea of raising awareness of community maps is not bad, though.

@Pelargir in my experience, Descent has been accepted by now. At least in Europe. (I think quite some people actually consider refinery worse)

I know competitive players prefer to play on Descent yeah. But, even if I didn't play too much on public servers lately, I often played on Refinery & not Descent. Anyway, Descent was just an example.

UncleCrunch · July 2014

Pelargir wrote: »

What's the purpose of your server except show the maps?

The SCC is only opened on WE. It's no full time. We need something like full time up.
I have the budget for one year. It's not gonna kill me, unless something cataclysmic happens but we're not there for now.

Also:
There is one trait about humans like you describe. New = bad (The Croods philosophy).

But in the mean time : Have you ever played a map (stayed connected) that you don't like much waiting for the next map in the cycle ? Not every time but probably yes. Everyone does.

A lot depends on how maps are completed. Fully or close to fully completed is not different than any other. Just open the editor and load an official map... sometimes it's a mess.

It's doesn't have to be written on the tittle that it's full custom. And on that point i'm still thinking on it. Like adding 1 or 2 official maps.

Once they are in the cycle maybe some admin of other servers would add the ones they find interesting. Though IMO i think they should have done that sooner. Plus it's a really good validation system for mapper. We will see it's it works.

But for sure (as mentioned) if nobody show the maps, these maps will never get any attention. Communication works also like that. Why do you think Movie industry make teaser ? To only advertise ? Nope, it's also to make ppl used to the new movies (even they didn't see yet). It's like a climate. You're in it, you gonna deal with it because it's this or leave earth. So you probably gonna go watch "Transformer 4" and "Galaxy guardians".

lotnik190 wrote: »

Wouldn't France be better?

Prices are higher due to many legal reasons. And also because of world network shape (if i can explain it like that). London (LIX) or Amsterdam (AMS-IX) are quite good for pings across all Europe. These two locations are quite crowed by ISP of all kind. So it won't be far from me and not far from other players in Europe.

What i'm planning on:
*Having ppl play these maps.
*Having mappers finish their maps (my rant on Ns_Hera is quite justified IMO but also we have to do something to stimulate things up).
*Improve map quality (by extension)
*Having in the end a bigger map set on servers (even if not official) on all servers. As long as they are good ppl will play.
*Late September or October would be a good target.

Tittle : "A Tex's lair - A lot of maps !!! and more" (something like that who cares anyway)
Throw some ideas.
"Custom" shouldn't show up in the tittle.

Pelargir · July 2014

SCC server works because as you said, it just needs to be full one day per week.

I guess we all agree to confirm maps need more communication to make them more active, more played, whatever, that is currently not the case. But this is not the only thing I noticed, communication around Kodiak was massively huge compared to other custom maps and, did you see so many servers running this map, I mean, games on this map?

To be honest, I cannot even say if I like that map or not, I know it's not balanced enough for now but @Loki is working on this to improve that aspect. I only played a few games on Kodiak since its official release some months ago... and that's disappointing because like all the map made by UWE or community mappers, creating a map needs time, and having a community with people that don't approve your work is just too bad. Of course, I was not alone to support the mappers purchasing the Kodiak's Pack but it's mainly always the same guys who decide to support the others.

Your idea is fair enough but I doubt about the players reactions. Personally, I'm bored to play 90% of my time on Summit, Veil & Tram, interesting, balanced & excellent maps to be played but I know them by heart now, it's not attractive anymore.

Nevertheless, good luck & I hope it will work!

DaanVanYperen · July 2014

The SCC typically seeds fine without relatively little effort, because of the fixed weekly schedule that is easy to commit to, the solid core that shows up almost every week, and the benefit of constructive feedback and advice. Besides each of us being hilariously funny and entertaining of course.

Ran as a tech for a big american gaming community for a while, who venture into a variety of games. Typically, to populate servers the game either needed to be currently hyped, have a sufficiently distinctive and attractive server gimmick, or be rigorously seeded by the community. (Besides the obvious steps , like cultivating your pbase instead of terrorizing them. Admin abuuuus!)

New maps add hours of play towards the end of a players lifetime on NS2, not the beginning. Rookies typically aren't done with the main maps yet, or sick of the predictability, to need custom maps. So while it might be fun for them to play custom maps, it's insufficient of a gimmick to attract your target audience with just that. NS2 has been off the hype train for a while now, so you're left with rigorously seeding.

And by rigorously I mean each game required a minimum number of seeders to get started, seeding for hours if needed. For NS2 this is requires a pretty big number of seeders. Attracting some people who wish to seed with you, even when they get sick of it, and possibly running a warmup gamemode, is going to help you out a lot. It'll become easier over time as you pick up some regulars. This might run contrary of running pub style gameplay though, regulars do not typically stay rookies.

DaanVanYperen · July 2014

@GhoulofGSG9 great tip! I'll discuss it with the rest.

MauvaisVitrier · August 2014

Pelargir said:

I just want to give my opinion here, SCC server & playtests are definitely the only current solution to test maps publicly. Competition is out of subject here despite my last attempt, and official Maptesters are dead as well. That's why I love the idea, except, that people, I mean, competitive, public & rookie players do not really care about maps unfinished. Stupid it is, but true.

Amen !

Yeah, I fully agree with this statement. And Tex I think that would be a great idea to rent a server and play only custom maps on it.
As bad as the Wooza is, it is running a lot of custom maps, and that's great. We played your map too Tex, it was epic (server wasn't full, only 12 vs 13).
Anyway, yea that might be hard to find people to populated your server, but the idea is good. I'm also sick of playing only summit/tram/veil. I want to try new maps ( even during gathers, or other comp games ) like fracture, triad, fusion and shit. But people don't even try them, although Fusion is strating to be acknowledge as a good and quite balanced map.

Pelargir · August 2014

This topic should be moved into Squad 5 section if Tex wrote it as a project. @Decoy please.

or @GhoulofGSG9.

UncleCrunch · August 2014

Hi,

I've been reviewing your suggestions and thanks for the tips.

I think I'll stick with G-portal. The target is mid September for subscription to the service.

If you're a mapper and want to have the map in map cycle (i can understand that you don't); read the next rules and get ready for mid-September. I think it's better to provide a "as good as we can" quality for the first months.

In order to populate the server, i think that maps should meet some minimum standards.

Required
-Respected game standards like PN in TP. Mario 64 maps port are not qualified, right?
-No grey box / texture in map - unless it's a testing session. Even if you select all faces and set only one texture, it'll be better than grey. You can do it under 10 clicks usually.
-Tell me if you have an update, so i can check that updates work smoothly on the server. I'm not used to the g-portal interface and stuff, so I'm being careful.

Appreciated
The philosophy behind is : "No rush, it's better to do things the right way than messing up fast"

-Occlusion helps optimize rendering time. So take a day to do that. It'll better for player experience.
-Props are bound to the mappers appreciation. If the a mapper wants a prop free map; so be it.
-Try to test with bots your layout. It helps debugging path and many other things.

The name will probably be
"Tex's Lair : Welcome to the next level (got ballz ?)" (<- i couldn't resist)

MOTD in a HTML page
"Whoever adapts, survives. Will you ?

Welcome to this server which run many custom maps.
Custom maps are generously made by passionate people spending a lot of hours doing it.
Constructive feedback is deeply appreciated. So if you have comments, post them on the (as web link) Mapping NS2 forum section."
... Something like that.

Map Cycle
I removed recently all mod to recover from game crashes. I have to verify if all the listed maps meet the requirements. The order (A/B) is what I remember about the % completed. It is subject to change.

1st Map cycle candidates

A/ (seems ok with rules)
NS2_outerrimark (of course)
NS2_Veil 5
NS2_Kodiak 5
NS2_fusion
NS2_Derelict
ns2_cradle
ns2_prison
ns2_light
ns2_caged
ns2_nothing
Ns2_Stratos
NS2_orbital_beta

B/ (WIP)
ns2_docking2
NS2_Penta
ns2_relic
ns2_hera

There are many as you can see, but it'll be reduced as some won't meet the requirements before deadline. Don't worry once you're ok with the requirement it'll be a formality to include your map in the mapcycle.

Official maps to help seeding:
Tram, Descent, Summit, Mineshaft (Mostly 5 TP maps)

excluding:
-Refinery (lava controversy)
-Docking (still many balance issue)
-Biodome (i had to choose between Bio and Decent)

NB: All NS1 map adaptation are excluded from map cycle. Yes i mean it, there are plenty of servers that run Veil / eclipse.

It will be 1 to 2 custom map then 1 official and so on. Vote will be on but i expect fast victory on custom map as ppl have to learn the layout and get used to it. So map will change fast.

Loki · August 2014

derelict is still over 75% greybox

lotnik190 · August 2014

Even though Beige said that he won't be mapping, you should put ns2_temple on the list

It's great map and it is ok with rules.

UncleCrunch · August 2014

Hi again,
Here is the list of map that will be in the map cycle.

Name			Steam Workshop	qualified
NS2_outerrimark 	ok		Yes
NS2_Veil 5		ok		Yes
NS2_Kodiak 5		ok		No
NS2_fusion		ok		Yes
NS2_Derelict		ok		No
ns2_cradle		not found	No
ns2_prison		ok		Yes
ns2_light		ok		No
ns2_caged		ok		Yes (but...)
ns2_nothing		ok		Yes
Ns2_Stratos		ok		Yes
NS2_orbital_beta	ok		Yes
ns2_docking2		ok		Yes
NS2_Penta		not found	No
ns2_relic		ok		No
ns2_hera		not found	No
ns2_temple		ok		Yes
ns2_fracture		ok		Yes
ns2_mineral		ok		Yes

So 12 custom maps + 4 official makes a 16 maps rotation.

Pending
Caged
There is one room (shipping) that is half grey box. It should be easy to fix. It's a one hour job. It still on, i expect to see this fixed or it will be removed. It wouldn't be fair for other map i discarded to keep this like that.

Why it is discarded ? (for the moment)
Kodiak5
It has a hole on the floor and you fall in space... Will get in when it's fixed. 1 hour job it seems.

Relic
Ready room not working (maybe the entity issue discovered recently). Grey box.

Derelict reboot
Grey box on one complete section. Easy to fix. We'll see. Until then...

Light
Grey box here and there. lower the atmospheric, it'll be fine.

I was impressed by some maps. Keep up the good work guys.
Oh my... i must be ill. i made compliments.

Edit: map numbers

Flaterectomy · August 2014

Hah, you should see the ton of greybox textures in my local build of Caged. xD I am pushing the build I wanted to publish last night to this coming weekend, I might take the time to throw textures on it. It's a silly rule for wip areas, but I'll agree that players will probably complain over these things.

BeigeAlert · August 2014

lotnik190 wrote: »

Even though Beige said that he won't be mapping, you should put ns2_temple on the list It's great map and it is ok with rules.

I'll elaborate on that and say I'm taking a break.

lotnik190 · August 2014

I will release update for light soon that will eliminate all graybox as well as lower atmospherics

KKyle · August 2014

I've experience with both managing custom servers and seeding them. It's really not that difficult, and is actually quite rewarding. Having a map cycle that promotes experimentation that is. It yields loyal client base/client tell. Even dedication from mappers that share their talent. The servers I am referencing are "[IAM-Clan] School of Darwinism" & "[IAM-Clan] Proving Grounds". The first one for natural selection 1, and the second for TF2.

I think the key is to build a community, slowly. Having regulars be in sync with knowing what the server is about. Offering some service, some type of interactive-ness. These two servers from my past I am referencing were probably maybe about 90% custom maps and people loved them. There's a reason why they (custom maps) are made, and it's a mystery why a majority remain underplayed.

Here's an alternate server name suggestion: "Archaic Lair: Evolve & Upgrade".

UncleCrunch · August 2014

Flaterectomy wrote: »

...but I'll agree that players will probably complain over these things.

Precisely. As i said a texture replace (paint tool) and it's gone.

lotnik190 wrote: »

I will release update for light soon that will eliminate all graybox as well as lower atmospherics

Keep me posted.

KKyle wrote: »

... There's a reason why they (custom maps) are made, and it's a mystery why a majority remain underplayed.

Human behavior. The Crood(tm) phylosophy: new is bad.
But also mappers behavior : "I'm not lazy, it just takes time".

That's why i wish for no grey box map. Ensuring a level of quality (which isn't a killer) will provide a nice place to stay.

Pelargir · August 2014

Actually, even if Caged was added with no more changes for now, that would be shame to miss it for that said room, just 'cause it's currently half greyboxed.

What about Fracture? There's surely a reason or maybe you just forgot it. I think Fracture meets all the requirements. Same question about Mineral, Master G is away and takes a break during the holidays, but i'm pretty sure he will be back in some weeks. This map has been played a lot on competitive scene and is balanced enough to be added on a public server, greyboxs step is kinda like some other maps in that cycle.

Is Stratos not forsaken yet?

I'll probably join this server as much as possible when it will be up & try out to gather some of the people I know.

UncleCrunch · August 2014

Flaterectomy and I think the same about it. Players that don't have a clue about mapping will complain. Avoiding it will allow everybody (mapper/players) to focus on more important matters like balance and gameplay; eventually Art (in a general meaning).

I parsed the first pages of the mapping section to get all the active map topic.

I forgot/missed Fracture. I'll also check "Mineral".

NS2_Stratos impressed me. It's one of the most complete map i saw. It's no surprise there are not many news about it. I think the only discussion left for it will be balance issues.

the_tick · August 2014

A nice idea, but the chance of it being succesfull is next to none.

The workshop will prevent mods, (maps) load in....

Just imagine, people vote for ns2_caged, map changes, server doesnt load in the mod ns2_caged = nobody can connect to server

MasterG · August 2014

This is a fantastic initiative Crunch! Let me know if you ever need some help with money. I can chip in at least 2-4 EUR/month. I encourage more people to chip in on the server bills so that we can keep this going for more than a year!

Also thanks Pela for making Crunch check out Mineral. I read half the thread and was about to post "where is Mineral"?. I'm currently in the startup phase of continuing work on it so there will be a new build maybe before server startup. If not then very soon after startup!

Again, great stuff! Really looking forward to this! And the sooner it can be up and running the better!

DaanVanYperen · August 2014

Rules seem a bit arbitrary/inflammatory, but I suspect what you are searching for a way to get some mapper commitment towards quality. Dev maps break all the time. Having a server full of dev maps will just get you a broken empty server. That's never going to be the textures either, but holes, occlusion issues, broken power nodes, etc.

If your goal is to give mappers a bigger audience, part of that is acknowledging people are not going to deal with server and map issues as readily as mappers would. You could ask mappers to publish a quality controlled version, with less frequent updates.

UncleCrunch wrote: »

But also mappers behavior : "I'm not lazy, it just takes time".

That's not laziness, just pragmatism. Right now there is no significant platform for unfinished maps, and the weekly playtests are mostly mappers anyway, so anticipating changes, texturing isn't always worth it. If you make your platform successful that might change, who knows.

prevertmaximus · August 2014

Hey UncleCrunch,

I am the one making ns2_orbital_beta. Nice to see you put my map in the rotation, Thank you. If you see or find anything that may need changing please let me know. I am working on the map a little bit most of the time to make areas better. So let me know and please check that the map is the lastest version.

Thanks, Max

Building only custom map server

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