enable ealier "vote concede" (for heavily stacked matches)
Joseppe
Join Date: 2012-01-21 Member: 141497Members
Join Date: 2012-01-21 Member: 141497Members
In my opinion:
heavily stacked matches:
situation:
After a hard days work you get home and want to play something for fun, so you maybe join a ns2 server and in 50% chance its unbalanced.
Thats ok, but some of these matches are heavily unbalanced.
People are sometimes heavily stacking (joining the skilled team) to win = to have fun.
In a lot of stacked matches you know since the beginning, who is winning and this is often waste of time for both teams (in my opinion).
But yeah its fun to win for the stacked team.
goal:
Everybody should have fun with the game and this means try to prevent heavily unbalanced matches/stacked teams.
Otherwise you can only hope the people who get public stomped by the other stacked team are willing to give ns2 some more chances and dont quit it immediatly, because of no fun.
idea (new): enable the ability to "vote concede" earlier.
Timing: After 1/2 minutes (to 10 min) since match begin the server should check the kill/death ratio of the teams.
Check: If team A has 75% of kills and the team B has 25% or less kills, display a message for the players of the team B
Message: "You are now able to vote concede" and enable the option for "vote concede" on team B.
The "kill/death"-check and the timing (1/2 min after match start) can be different and need fine tuning.
This will not prevent stacked matches, but it will shorten them. Its the easiest way i can think of.
idea (old): (a lot of disagrees)
heavily stacked matches:
- are senseless and waste of time for both teams
- they are possible in ns2 and they happen a little bit to much (of course depending where you see the border between heavily stacked and little bit unbalanced)
- btw: this is the only thing where i can complain about the game
situation:
After a hard days work you get home and want to play something for fun, so you maybe join a ns2 server and in 50% chance its unbalanced.
Thats ok, but some of these matches are heavily unbalanced.
People are sometimes heavily stacking (joining the skilled team) to win = to have fun.
In a lot of stacked matches you know since the beginning, who is winning and this is often waste of time for both teams (in my opinion).
But yeah its fun to win for the stacked team.
goal:
Everybody should have fun with the game and this means try to prevent heavily unbalanced matches/stacked teams.
Otherwise you can only hope the people who get public stomped by the other stacked team are willing to give ns2 some more chances and dont quit it immediatly, because of no fun.
idea (new): enable the ability to "vote concede" earlier.
Timing: After 1/2 minutes (to 10 min) since match begin the server should check the kill/death ratio of the teams.
Check: If team A has 75% of kills and the team B has 25% or less kills, display a message for the players of the team B
Message: "You are now able to vote concede" and enable the option for "vote concede" on team B.
The "kill/death"-check and the timing (1/2 min after match start) can be different and need fine tuning.
This will not prevent stacked matches, but it will shorten them. Its the easiest way i can think of.
idea (old): (a lot of disagrees)
So please consider about a mechanic (if possible) to automatically "force even teams" / balanced teams, if the teams are heavily stacked (before match begin).
Comments
Force Even - They dont know it:
In each match there is 1 player who knows about the option.
Otherwise if all people dont know about these option - then they are all probably rookies and the match is balanced anyway.
Force Even - They know it - But then dont use it:
There are these heavily unbalanced matches - why people then dont "force even teams" ?
Because they want to have fun / to win after a hard days work.
They paid for a game and they want to have fun with it (if this means stack - then lets stack, if i am on the winning team).
But the players on the other team - they dont have fun / its senseless for them - and some of them (if they are rookies) will not play the game anymore, if this happens more often.
Prevent these Uneven Matches before match starts:
just something that automatically does a "force even teams" if the 1 team is stacked to much
Yeah, everything is fine about this.
But i am talking about the matches where nobody is voting for anything and at match begin the teams are stacked heavily - there should be a automatically force even teams to prevent this. Right now in heavily unbalanced matches: the match starts and you know... ok lets try, but its usually lost since beginning (people are often leaving server after some minutes or just waiting for the end of the match).
- If people want to stack, they do it. They can always go to RR and wait until a spot is free.
- Sometimes a single comp player can make a side seem stacked, because of skill difference.
- If teams are unbalanced, noone on the stacked side would wan't to change to the weaker side anyway or go to RR.
- Also player's are waiting for commanders already to get a match started.
What we need to get balanced teams is a proper skill system (which is underway) and then a Matchmaking system which automatically creates teams with about
same skill.
Thats wrong. if you have a stacked match, the people with the lesser skilled players are going to ready room.
NOW you can usually wait until the match is finished, because you cant join the winning team with all none-of-the-players-has-left.
Even if a spot is free only 1 person can join to the winning team, the other people on the winning team will never leave.
Yes, but for this reason the auto balance should be disabled (only for this) and the lesser skilled teams should just get more players who can always spawn.
example: 10 vs 12 with the comp players on 10 and 12 players with lesser skill.
Thats why the automatically prevention system should prevent a match start until an automatically "force even teams" is done and the match can start.
If the teams are switching during the match... then an unbalanced match is still possible of course.
I agree on this. An automatically anti-stack mechanic could be:
the com (if he is already in the chair / hive) could stay in the chair / hive, but the mobile players on the field just get switched by the automatically "force even teams". so there is no extra waiting time.
In my experience, force even teams as is does not work whatsoever. First of all, you need everyone on there to have time put into the hive system. Rookies have no time put into the hive system yet, and even if I play with all vets the system does not work. If this were done always and automatically, by my experience we would have stacked teams more often.
That is only with the current system. This is why @fordprefect was saying once moultano's algorithm is implemented and working properly, people will slowly notice this and start using it more often.
Your argument may have some validity once we have a working algorithm, but still I disagree for reasons @_inter_ mentioned.
If people want to stack, they do it. They can always go to RR once the match starts after a force even teams and wait until a spot is free. You might say to dissallow that, but you cant. What if the algorithm still didn't work and some outstanding gamers wanted to fix it by switching teams to rebalance. What if people leave the server, so teams are unbalanced. You also can't disallow moving teams for that. What if a person decided they wanted to spectate instead of play. There are days where I only want to play alien for some unknown reason to myself, and I will leave a server if I am unable to. I have those same days with marines.
Sometimes a single comp player can make a side seem stacked, because of skill difference. The skill difference from the top to the bottom is so vast, that a single player can make the game unbalanceable. I am a pretty decent player after 1250 hours, but if a premier player is in the server I don't have a chance. It is just how it is. With a small player base that is decreasing, the chances of rookies and these amazing players being in the same server becomes greater. Not that this is a bad thing, everyone has a right to play, but the game will not be much fun for either the rookies or the amazing player.
If teams are unbalanced, most people don't want to switch teams because they would rather be on the stacked side than to be stacked against. I have seen players try to destack, I have done it myself, but many don't want to. It is also really hard to fight a rookie stack. That is where all the new green players jump into one team, leaving it so all the vets can only play on the other team, although that is the only occasion I know of where force even teams is really the only option.
On top of that, I really value the ability to choose which team I am on. I couldn't tell you why but there are days where I really want to just play marines or just aliens.
I have high hopes for this algorithm that is being worked on right now, but ns2 has so many factors it is really hard to balance.
As a vet, before this recent sales wave of greens, I was having balanced games more often than not. Took me awhile to figure it out, but for my skill level, I have found a selection of servers that I know I have a really good chance of getting balanced games.
Thats a great thing if you're not such a good player: You destack by joining the stacked team
then just take another algorithm. force even teams is right now the only one implemented and its probably a more balanced matched with 1 time "force even teams" then just play a "25% or less skill" on team A and "75% or more skill on team B".
it is NOT always... its just for heavily unbalanced matches.
They cant. If there was a "force even teams" (or another algorithm) you cant change the team when on each team there is the same amount of players.
You can go ready room & wait for a free slot of course... then just wait.
Then let them go into ready room and i dont dissallow that.
If the player goes to ready room in the same time:
-he needs to wait for a free slot on the other team (2 players need to go to ready room too from the other team)
-there can be other players joining the server and taking his place on his team before
-its only 1 player waiting in ready room, that doesnt really matter if 1 player is doing this
I dont dissallow that. the algorithm should be applied BEFORE the match starts WHEN the teams are heavily unbalanced. If people leave the server before the match starts, it doesnt matter. If people leave the server during the match, its their decision. I am not talking about balancing teams during a match, its about the match start at the beginning.
If you want to spectate, then go spectator if the algorithm puts you in a team.
If you want to play a specific race and you are on the wrong team after the algorithm has moved you to the other team, then its just bad luck for you.
The overall fun for everyone (=balanced teams / algorithm based) > just the fun for a specific person (you in a specific team+ not algorithm based balance)
Dont forget: the algorithm based team balance is ONLY applied on heavily stacked teams & the chance you get into the wrong team is 50%.
Thats why the balance algorithm should dissable the team-player-amount-balance (in such special cases), so 12 vs 10 players is possible if the comp player is on the 10 player side and the 12 players can always spawn without problems. so if players are joining the teams can be only: 13 vs 11 / 14 vs 12 and so on... the comp players get 3 enemy players instead of only 1.
Thats the problem i would like to solve with an automatically applied balance based algorithm, so the balance is forced to happen.
If they dont want to destack, that doesnt matter. They are force ONLY in the case the teams are HEAVILY stacked, because:
The overall fun for everyone (=balanced teams / algorithm based) > just the fun for a specific person (who doesnt want to destack)
In this case the "all greens on same team" the algorithm based team balance with balance the teams.
The overall fun for everyone (=balanced teams / algorithm based) > just the fun for a specific person (you in a specific team+ not algorithm based balance)
Dont forget: the algorithm based team balance is ONLY applied on heavily stacked teams & the chance you get into the wrong team is 50%.
As i read this, i hope this too. I just dont want to play to play these heavily unbalanced matches, because they are really senseless / waste of time. AGAIN: i am not talking about balanced matches / i am not talking about little bit unbalanced matches.
The only time it works sort of ok is when the majority in a team is public play only, and preferably as new as can be.
We are saying, we do need to discuss every little bit.
Also, it is being worked on. I have high hopes but I don't want to unreasonable expectations.
btw: maybe i should change the thread title to - automatically (not manually) force balanced teams algorithm (for heavily stacked matches)
I did NEVER EVER say this. i was ALWAYS talking about balance BEFORE the match starts. Of course you cant rescramble the teams in the middle of the match, that would be just stupid.
i dont know, this discussion is really exhausting, because i feel like everybody is saying: dont balance heavily stacked teams.
and it happened now more than 2 times i need to answer to a sentence, which i never said.
example:
- "If this were done always and automatically" - never said - i said: balance at match start for heavily stacked teams only
- "You can't just completely rescramble the teams in the middle of a game" - never said - i said: balance at match start
btw: i am waiting now for the "Joseppe you cant kick everybody who is stacking in the middle of the match"... :PPS: (in my opinion) thread can be closed - its leading to nothing. Everybody disagress, so i assume i am completly wrong with balancing heavily stacked teams.
Out of the people who travel these forums, a fraction will read this post, a faction of that will put the effort into doing what you propose (chances are if they think that way, they have already been doing it regardless if this post existed). IMHO, the thread is pretty moot, but again I am not disagreeing with your effort or your merits, so let's expand on this.
For the last two weeks, every night I've played on any server, when the game gets pretty unplayable due to unfair teams, I've been tossing up the proposal to do Team Captains, more often than not it has created a more civil approach to get people to work together to dish out fair teams.
Here are the benefits:
- It at least gives both teams a chance to at least agree that the teams are perceived to be fair.
- Every round that continues, can can gradually become more fair as players get traded by the captains to tweak the skill balance.
- Can result in longer and more intense battles that feel worth fighting for
- Can get teams to think about what everyone's roles are to have more organized play (Basically turns Pubs into Pugs)
This method is not without it's flaws however, so here are the CONS:
- Requires that the Captains have decent understanding of the skills of the players in the server (more of a community thing)
- Requires that ALL players agree to have some patience for this, and sit in ready room waiting for the drafting to begin, resulting in a slower start to the first game, but faster concurrent games.
- If too many players switch out, then teams might have to be re picked.
For those of you who may be new to this, it's like choosing teams back in High School gym class/playground.
- Pick Two Captains (A and
- Have Captains choose which side they want
- Have the two captains choose one of these options: First Single Pick (Player), or Pick Two Players Second.
- The advantage of picking first is... lets say Captain A choses first, so he pick the strongest player in the server, then Captain B can possibly get two decent players, so choose wisely.
- The order of picks is like this A1-B2-A2-B2...etc, continue until all players are assigned. Once completed, the captains must communicate to make sure the teams look even, and that rookies are evenly divided.
- Play your round, and see how it goes.
- If the teams were even, then a lot of time is saved, SWAP SIDES WITH SAME TEAMS and have another go, GL HF.
- If the teams were NOT even (not to be confused with strategically out played) still SWAP SIDES WITH SAME TEAMS, but the captains need to trade 1 Top player from winning team with 1 weaker player from losing team (rookies exempt)
- The goal of this is not to WIN, it is to make both teams have epic (and hopefully enjoyable) games.
This has been a trending thing lately, as I've seen it adopted in the following servers Diamond Gamers, LuckyFkers, KKG Team Captain's servers, I tip my hat to those player communities.
Again, this post is not a suggestion of ideal situation, it has been happening already, I'm just informing you that is exists, and that like the OP, the responsibilities are in the hands of the players.
*My post here represents me as a player of this game and does not represent the opinions of any other groups or members thereof to whom I am affiliated with.
this is a lot of afford to get a balanced match. i would expect in a public match something like this:
Joseppe: "Hey, the teams are heavily stacked, can we just get 2 captains who are willing to choose the people for each side ?"
Someone on the server: "Shutup/stop whining and play or you get kicked"
(seriously: i expect the people to say nothing or just say - then do a "force even teams" if you want balance & everybody on the stacked side will vote for no - so you need 100% of your own team to vote yes to reach the 50% yes-mark)
new idea: enable the ability to "vote concede" earlier.
Timing: After 1/2 minutes (to 10 min) since match begin the server should check the kill/death ratio of the teams.
Check: If team A has 75% of kills and the team B has 25% or less kills, display a message for the players of the team B
Message: "You are now able to vote concede" and enable the option for "vote concede" on team B.
The "kill/death"-check and the timing (1/2 min after match start) can be different and need fine tuning.
This will not prevent stacked matches, but it will shorten them. Its the easiest way i can think of.
To a degree I don't expect a collection of random people to want to put in that level effort in any game, but honestly as I said, for two weeks straight, 3 hours a night, it has happened pretty successfully, and I have been very pleased with the results.
If however people aren't interested, I usually go find another server who will, because I know that the teams might be stacked, and I personally would prefer to play with an enjoyable company instead of just playing doing the usual.
Now you have a new solution of allowing early concede if heavily stacked. That sounds reasonable, but how would the server know the teams were heavily stacked? If the server could tell that, I could see early concede being reasonable.
I do want to say though that I feel many people concede far too soon. On the winning team I sometimes want to blow up the hive/chair. I have seen plenty of times where we had a concede vote 2-5 times in a long game, and ended up having this epic victory.
It sounds like you have had a poor experience, and I agree that sucks. The fact that you made this thread shows you love this game, as we all do. It is a blast when balanced. The solution I have found, as mentioned earlier was find well admined servers with a good community. There are a few around like that, and some have different communities that some dislike. I don't want to name and shame or name and boost at all here, but you could ask almost any vet and they probably have a good 3 servers they usually find good games on.
*Proceeds to F4 and await in ready room as act of protest.
In my experiences it is extremely rare for this to happen, and most of the time when it does the comeback is only possible for one of two reasons... 1) The top players on the winning team had to leave, or 2) Someone who is ridiculously good (aka godlike) joined the losing team.
This would be really nice if it's possible to implement. When it's 5 minutes into the game and the top 3-5+ players on the winning team have more kills than the entire losing team combined, it's beyond over. There is no amount of teamwork or coordination that can overcome such a drastic difference in skill level.
I personally would be happy if they just shortened the concede time to 5 minutes.
Aliens:
- Eggs getting killed
- not more than 1 RT for 2 Minutes
- not more than 2 RT for 4 Minutes
Marine:
- No IPs
- Not more than 1 RT for 2 Minutes
- Not more than 3 RT for 4 Minutes
If one of these conditions are met, its pretty fair to say its a stomp and concede should be offered.
P.S.: I am sure one could find more / better metrics.
Too many ways around that. What if you lost an rt right around a time marker but could easily be recapped? And a marine can hive rush and kill an egg or two. This is taking everything you said as literal :-p but I saw the p.s.
I think at this time everyone who has concrete knowledge of this game can agree that a matchmaking tool to the game would be a lovely addition.
How many more matchmaking/stacking threads are we going to make?
Matchmaking won't work, even with today's peak of 2,000 players, it is just not enough.
What will work, though, is proper Rookie ONLY servers and a hive system using a more accurate skill ranking system (that is being worked on) which will provide balanced matches in those segregated servers should they balance the server with "force even teams".
Basically, broad strokes to segregate newer players into safer environments so that they can learn and get comfortable at their own pace, and within that environment balance the teams to an even further degree.
This comes back to the psychological issue of 'stacked' teams, I agree sometimes its obvious but we played against two 'stacked' team games the other day and kicked their butts™.
If you run your own server, you can already change that to your liking.
Anecdote:
In some games, we turned a 3min snorefest into a new form of new year's countdown party (still a sucky game, but once you decide to look at things differently, things change)
"Did you notice how we are still on just one RT 3 minutes into the game and how we lost EVERY SINGLEFUCKING ENGAGEMENT so far?"
"Yeah, but what can we do?"
"Start the countdown! Everybody bunker up in Flight, don't leave the base, only 90 seconds till vote!"
*we bunker up*
"10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 - HAPPY CONCEDE EVERYBODY!"
The best thing about that: Immediately afterwards the professional stackers usually get all pissy and disappointed and start throwing big tantrums how you deprived them of yet another ridiculous rookie farming victory which is unfair, because it is their birth-right or something...
To long: a obvious lost match, awaiting the inevitable loss. Yet everyone still defends, dragging it out. Other painful for the defending side.
To short: Abusive 'we lost/stacked' votes when nothing is truly wrong.
The real solution indeed, would not be to check concedes, but why teams are stacked in the first place. Which is another topic in whole.
I personally would LOVE to see how that balance suggestion someone made a while back would work. Last we heared it was up for implementation. (the one where its expected wins vs actual wins)