IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2014
@BentRing
Then you should have
a) Created a greater distance using your JP before firing (this would be recommended even if there wasn't a minimum arming distance)
b) Relied on your teammates to shoot the alien player, as intended, since you were using
c) an anti structure weapon which shouldn't be used on players in the first place.
ooo I got good idea, GL can only direct hit buildings and maybe onos (bounces off other stuff) and maybe the grenade launcher shots are easier to see (glow?)
Maybe solve the endless salvos of grenade spam by bringing back the attatchment!
Sure, it made the GL/LMG an incredibly powerful weapon (borderline OP since it had no drawbacks), but at least grenades were only launched one at a time, rather than 4 at a time.
With some adjustments to the damage levels of the grenade, I think that it would be a viable option to solve the "nade spam" dilemma, while also making the nade launcher more useful.
As a side note, it would also increase the benefits of multiweapon squads, in stead of just having the shotgun be the ultimate weapon of destruction.
@BentRing
Then you should have
a) Created a greater distance using your JP before firing (this would be recommended even if there wasn't a minimum arming distance)
b) Relied on your teammates to shoot the alien player, as intended, since you were using
c) an anti structure weapon which shouldn't be used on players in the first place.
imo
I'm not asking for anything to be changed
a) Of course distance is good but I've been shooting what's in my face with explosives for years in games, knowing I'll die too and not caring
b) All my teammates had GL since we rushing the hive so we all were using
c) an anti structure weapon which shouldn't be used on players in the first place.
d) your opinion is usually spot on but this type of response hurts my head.
We could make it slower firing and/or slower projectile speed, after all, buildings don't move (that fast :P ).
I am one of those people going to hell however because I use the GL as an anti personal device. Don't spam it, time your shots so they think its safe to move in etc. Using it like a weapon rather than an area denial tool can allow you to rank up impressive kills...
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2014
@BentRing
Ah, ok i thought you were suggesting a change there regarding minimum arming distance and also possibly not understanding the composition / role intended.
(i.e. a team of only GLs any one thing should be easy pickings)
see title. General fixes:
- make them properly networked, so they can be avoided even in air and such
I believe the GL carrier should be having the 4 nades entities already glued to him (in the game code). As i see this, actually the nade is created (as an entity) at the exact moment the GL fires. This produce many lag issue. I remember huge fun when using GL and Jetpack in NS1 ('nading yourself). It's probably the same in NS2.
- improve ns2 lag compensation, so the damage feedback is much more instant rather then a felt ~1-2 second delayed (this pretty much would improve alien play A LOT), and reduce the issues with prediction (getting killed around corners, by marines not facing you, etc)
Anti-Structure
choose one or multiple
- Remove player damage, or reduce it drastically
This one is the better.
1/ One marine wouldn't solo nade an entire team.
2/ It would require teamwork in order to cover the GLer (like ARCs)
3/ Won't be useful in turtling
4/ Would avoid the "everybody buys a GL and the team loose" issue.
I'd switch the price of the flamethrower and GL. flamethrower is very useful for hurting alien stam and anti structure, but for its price its not worth it. GL's on the other hand are super cheese that can be fired at the feet of allies to magically disperse only alien flesh, and are an awesome seige/antilerk weapon. A hive getting spammed by nades suddenly isnt a safe heal base even for a few moments.
GLS & FT are very hard to balance for pub & competitive due to the fact there "support" weapons & a pres sink if you can not defend the person (which is hard) in competitive.
In pub, just get 6 out of 12 people with GLS and spam your way to a win. Hard to dodge nades when u can barely fkn see them & they have such retarded physics.
GLS & FT are very hard to balance for pub & competitive due to the fact there "support" weapons & a pres sink if you can not defend the person (which is hard) in competitive.
In pub, just get 6 out of 12 people with GLS and spam your way to a win. Hard to dodge nades when u can barely fkn see them & they have such retarded physics.
Add 1 flamethrower to that mix
1 Flamethrower can make a HUGE difference on a hive push, seeing as how it disables Hive Healing/Crag Healing/Shift/Alien Energy Regen/Shade Cloaking/Whips.
Well, lets just say that flamethrowers counter everything aliens have, except their health.
This comes to mind:
Of course it is annoying to get killed from a luck nade, but a new/low-skill player wants to have fun to and get to do something usefull.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
If you watch that video more carefully @simple_ it suggests something different than how you are using it there.
It says that such a random / fu mechanic is only useful as a *band aid* IF there is not a natural and intuitive progression throughout the skill ladder.
This is important IMHO because it's the difference between good game design, and a poorly implemented after thought that generally comes with downsides. (like being the most annoying mechanic in a game some times)
@simple_ there are good and bad examples of this in the game.
Bad example is the GL, because it has a intended _different_ role as anti-structure.
If you observe a public game, it drives other players (also new/bad) to quit the server when they're getting constantly GL spammed, and I don't think that's making people stick around any longer in ns2; often it's also exactly that downside mentioned in the video, it's ends up as being the ONLY thing those people use, they never touch the other weapons and only spam GL, which obviously will stop them from developing any skill with the other weapons; I mean they are technically forced to use LMG most of the game, but still they get a GL whenever they can.
A better example is Onos, because it can actually work pretty well with a new player even against experienced players, and exactly induces the postive feeling they talk about. Still can be beaten and doesn't leave the other players in state where they can't react to it (well, except stomp being bugged and unavoidable sometimes (even with JP), but that's ANOTHER bug with NS2 and it's only very lategame tech)
If you watch that video more carefully @simple_ it suggests something different than how you are using it there.
It says that such a random / fu mechanic is only useful as a *band aid* IF there is not a natural and intuitive progression throughout the skill ladder.
This is important IMHO because it's the difference between good game design, and a poorly implemented after thought that generally comes with downsides. (like being the most annoying mechanic in a game some times)
The question is, is using a GL something that people will stick to and only use that for the rest of their time in the game. I don't think so.
In my eyes the GL is more like the noobtube in cod. Good for starters but most people will graduate from it, if they like the game and start to get better with rifle/sg whatever.
Also they don't call Foo strategies a problem in general, but rather talk about the problem when the game design force player to graduate from Foos too late.
I agree however that 5 marines with GL standing out side the hive and just spaming a doorway can be quite annoying.
But I see that only in games where marines are winning, but don't have the teamwork to finish it.
The grenade launcher, by itself, is not a problem at all...
The GL only becomes a problem when there are 5+ marines turtling a corridor (3 with GLs and the other 2 with SG/LMG). This typically only happens on larger servers. For example, if you are playing on a 8v8 instead of a 12v12 and marines have 4 people dedicated to spamming gls... well then it's basically a 8v4 game and the marines should lose the rest of the map.
My suggestion... increase the price, decrease the weapon life after it is dropped, or reduce the ammo count to something like 12. Also, reducing the GL to purely structure damage will make it a next to useless weapon. The easiest fix would be to cap GL counts and scale that cap to server population... but that's just bad game design.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2014
@joshhh
I think you slightly missed the point of the thread
Its not at all about balance, i don't think anyone has spoken about that
Its about perceived unfairness from dying a quick, frustrating, uncounterable death by a skill-less weapon that was not designed for how it was being used.
Also they don't call Foo strategies a problem in general, but rather talk about the problem when the game design force player to graduate from Foos too late.
While you are right in that he doesn't say its a problem, he does mention near the end how good game design is quickly getting that player up that skill ladder to enjoy learning the game asap.
I don't think many would argue how that degree of progression was very poorly executed for historical Foo examples like the n00b tube.
They become a crutch that players lean on for far too long due to their stupid Power to Skill Ratio that has nothing to do with the actual intended gameplay/skill progression.
A better game mechanic would have been a slightly lower Power ratio for low skill level that included gameplay similar to higher level play, to better intuitively and naturally teach the player.
Also, something he doesn't get into is that you can retain players without such a high Power ratio.. instead you use other incentives to denote progress while learning, like unlocks or ranking systems or even lower skill niche roles in actual gameplay like a medic etc.
(planetside 2 has the most "starter roles" i've ever seen in a game, [like base AA guns] and pulls it off very well)
TLDR: Most Foo strategies are a poor substitute considering the available options, and are often missing out on actually teaching the player how to play properly. I consider them to be lazy game design, personally.
@joshhh
I think you slightly missed the point of the thread
Its not at all about balance, i don't think anyone has spoken about that
Its about perceived unfairness from dying a quick, frustrating, uncounterable death by a skill-less weapon that was not designed for how it was being used.
No, I completely understand what people are complaining about. My post relates to that. Since GL's have high burst damage, multiple marines spamming them makes an impenetrable hallway of death... which becomes a game balance issue when it gets to that magnitude. No one ever complains about a single marine gl spamming a hallway. lol
The GL does what it is suppose to by it self... and if your alien eats a pipe to the face, you will probably die. It's the same with the skulk vs shotgun argument.
I disagree.
Large difference between a shotgunner that was positioned properly and aimed accurately and well timed, versus a projectile that moves erratically, is difficult to see against the environment, is fired blindly around the corner, and was never intended for you but instead for base destruction.
I can hear the footsteps and know that there may be a shotgunner around the corner I don't want to engage... but what i didn't expect was that random bank shot GL projectile that teleported to my feet and took away my higher lifeform a whole room away. The less frequent spam issue of GLs is just the icing on the cake of the issue. (it fuels turtles)
lol. You disagree with my entire post and pull one sentence out of it. That quote was in reference to the 1-hit kill death complaint we always have with shotguns. Maybe it was a poor example. When marines start spamming, I typically see pubs try attacking through the GL minefield of a hallway and then cry when they die.
Regardless, I do think something could change with the GL... but your never going to remove the ability for random luck-kills it will get.
haha 2:35-2:52 explains NS2 perfectly. i feel sorry for the newbs sometimes. sad really how much that description fits ;( seen so many rookie stomps, especially on the sales. and i've given like 5 copies of the game to friends, all of whom gave up because (to quote that vid) "they didn't stick around long enough to compete, and get smashed by veteran players"
but, then again, haveing a community like this, you get to know all the regular players and everyone knowns each other. and you don't get that with other games. just one of the reasons i love the game.
On topic with the GL's someone mentioned that they should switch the price with flamers, i think that would be great. flamers are awesome, but too expensive to be that helpful. and GL's are cheap, and way too useful XD. if you time your shots, you can kill a lerk/fade easy. though i'm no good at it AND it annihilates structures.
Bring back the ability for whips to throw grenades back at moaning GL users :P
Personally I like the GL and use it for Hive Assaults whenever possible, but only in a group, one on one with an alien is bad times, seems fair.
I would like that very much since it requires marines to take down whips first before unleashing gl's on hive. Unfortunately doesn't fix the problem of direct hitting fades. I think my suggestion fixes that.
Wat. See the topic dates, some date back as far as 2012, and build 250 came out 8 months ago.
Ok, this may be late, but do you realize that back in 2012 this was an entirely different weapon? Hell, it was an entirely different game! You can't just say "There always have been GL complaints, therefore a GL fix is overdue". The game keeps getting patched and tweaked and often new issues arise while old ones slowly disappear. That argument ist not valid in NS2.
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
So, according to that video, we should make Grenade Launchers a early-game weapon and when rookies love how awesome it is, then we should give cake to players as an incentive for doing other strategies.
Badge Earned: (Tiny 16x16 badge that has a red cross covering a GL)
NS2 Fix Confirmed.
All "seriousness" aside, TF2 added Critical Hits to the classic TFC formula, to give rookies the chance to mow down a better player in spectacular gibby fashio and doesn't give a better player any greater of a chance than the rookie, not sure if this would fit for NS2 however.
I would like to try making the grenade itself deal damage on impact, while reducing the explosion damage.
E.g.
Current
130 damage (260 vs structures)
Revised
40 grenade impact damage (80 vs structures) + 90 explosion splash damage (180 vs structures)
This makes mindless grenade spam ineffective at bringing down crucial structures as the total damage is separated between the grenade impact and the actual explosion itself. This also allows skilled lobbers to deal some damage to Kharaa players on direct hit, instead of it bouncing off harmlessly due to the minimum fuse time before a grenade explodes.
Comments
Then you should have
a) Created a greater distance using your JP before firing (this would be recommended even if there wasn't a minimum arming distance)
b) Relied on your teammates to shoot the alien player, as intended, since you were using
c) an anti structure weapon which shouldn't be used on players in the first place.
imo
Sure, it made the GL/LMG an incredibly powerful weapon (borderline OP since it had no drawbacks), but at least grenades were only launched one at a time, rather than 4 at a time.
With some adjustments to the damage levels of the grenade, I think that it would be a viable option to solve the "nade spam" dilemma, while also making the nade launcher more useful.
As a side note, it would also increase the benefits of multiweapon squads, in stead of just having the shotgun be the ultimate weapon of destruction.
I'm not asking for anything to be changed
a) Of course distance is good but I've been shooting what's in my face with explosives for years in games, knowing I'll die too and not caring
b) All my teammates had GL since we rushing the hive so we all were using
c) an anti structure weapon which shouldn't be used on players in the first place.
d) your opinion is usually spot on but this type of response hurts my head.
I am one of those people going to hell however because I use the GL as an anti personal device. Don't spam it, time your shots so they think its safe to move in etc. Using it like a weapon rather than an area denial tool can allow you to rank up impressive kills...
Ah, ok i thought you were suggesting a change there regarding minimum arming distance and also possibly not understanding the composition / role intended.
(i.e. a team of only GLs any one thing should be easy pickings)
I think you guys dont know how to play lerk and fade properly >> Charge in like Rambo and eat GL in your face
Fly as Fade and lerk Up and down before you attack Marine >> See the weapons they carry or hear shotgun sound >> Then Attack
Not only with GL i may say.
This one is the better.
1/ One marine wouldn't solo nade an entire team.
2/ It would require teamwork in order to cover the GLer (like ARCs)
3/ Won't be useful in turtling
4/ Would avoid the "everybody buys a GL and the team loose" issue.
In pub, just get 6 out of 12 people with GLS and spam your way to a win. Hard to dodge nades when u can barely fkn see them & they have such retarded physics.
Add 1 flamethrower to that mix
1 Flamethrower can make a HUGE difference on a hive push, seeing as how it disables Hive Healing/Crag Healing/Shift/Alien Energy Regen/Shade Cloaking/Whips.
Well, lets just say that flamethrowers counter everything aliens have, except their health.
Personally I like the GL and use it for Hive Assaults whenever possible, but only in a group, one on one with an alien is bad times, seems fair.
Of course it is annoying to get killed from a luck nade, but a new/low-skill player wants to have fun to and get to do something usefull.
It says that such a random / fu mechanic is only useful as a *band aid* IF there is not a natural and intuitive progression throughout the skill ladder.
This is important IMHO because it's the difference between good game design, and a poorly implemented after thought that generally comes with downsides. (like being the most annoying mechanic in a game some times)
Bad example is the GL, because it has a intended _different_ role as anti-structure.
If you observe a public game, it drives other players (also new/bad) to quit the server when they're getting constantly GL spammed, and I don't think that's making people stick around any longer in ns2; often it's also exactly that downside mentioned in the video, it's ends up as being the ONLY thing those people use, they never touch the other weapons and only spam GL, which obviously will stop them from developing any skill with the other weapons; I mean they are technically forced to use LMG most of the game, but still they get a GL whenever they can.
A better example is Onos, because it can actually work pretty well with a new player even against experienced players, and exactly induces the postive feeling they talk about. Still can be beaten and doesn't leave the other players in state where they can't react to it (well, except stomp being bugged and unavoidable sometimes (even with JP), but that's ANOTHER bug with NS2 and it's only very lategame tech)
The question is, is using a GL something that people will stick to and only use that for the rest of their time in the game. I don't think so.
In my eyes the GL is more like the noobtube in cod. Good for starters but most people will graduate from it, if they like the game and start to get better with rifle/sg whatever.
Also they don't call Foo strategies a problem in general, but rather talk about the problem when the game design force player to graduate from Foos too late.
I agree however that 5 marines with GL standing out side the hive and just spaming a doorway can be quite annoying.
But I see that only in games where marines are winning, but don't have the teamwork to finish it.
The GL only becomes a problem when there are 5+ marines turtling a corridor (3 with GLs and the other 2 with SG/LMG). This typically only happens on larger servers. For example, if you are playing on a 8v8 instead of a 12v12 and marines have 4 people dedicated to spamming gls... well then it's basically a 8v4 game and the marines should lose the rest of the map.
My suggestion... increase the price, decrease the weapon life after it is dropped, or reduce the ammo count to something like 12. Also, reducing the GL to purely structure damage will make it a next to useless weapon. The easiest fix would be to cap GL counts and scale that cap to server population... but that's just bad game design.
I think you slightly missed the point of the thread
Its not at all about balance, i don't think anyone has spoken about that
Its about perceived unfairness from dying a quick, frustrating, uncounterable death by a skill-less weapon that was not designed for how it was being used.
While you are right in that he doesn't say its a problem, he does mention near the end how good game design is quickly getting that player up that skill ladder to enjoy learning the game asap.
I don't think many would argue how that degree of progression was very poorly executed for historical Foo examples like the n00b tube.
They become a crutch that players lean on for far too long due to their stupid Power to Skill Ratio that has nothing to do with the actual intended gameplay/skill progression.
A better game mechanic would have been a slightly lower Power ratio for low skill level that included gameplay similar to higher level play, to better intuitively and naturally teach the player.
Also, something he doesn't get into is that you can retain players without such a high Power ratio.. instead you use other incentives to denote progress while learning, like unlocks or ranking systems or even lower skill niche roles in actual gameplay like a medic etc.
(planetside 2 has the most "starter roles" i've ever seen in a game, [like base AA guns] and pulls it off very well)
TLDR: Most Foo strategies are a poor substitute considering the available options, and are often missing out on actually teaching the player how to play properly. I consider them to be lazy game design, personally.
No, I completely understand what people are complaining about. My post relates to that. Since GL's have high burst damage, multiple marines spamming them makes an impenetrable hallway of death... which becomes a game balance issue when it gets to that magnitude. No one ever complains about a single marine gl spamming a hallway. lol
The GL does what it is suppose to by it self... and if your alien eats a pipe to the face, you will probably die. It's the same with the skulk vs shotgun argument.
Large difference between a shotgunner that was positioned properly and aimed accurately and well timed, versus a projectile that moves erratically, is difficult to see against the environment, is fired blindly around the corner, and was never intended for you but instead for base destruction.
I can hear the footsteps and know that there may be a shotgunner around the corner I don't want to engage... but what i didn't expect was that random bank shot GL projectile that teleported to my feet and took away my higher lifeform a whole room away. The less frequent spam issue of GLs is just the icing on the cake of the issue. (it fuels turtles)
Regardless, I do think something could change with the GL... but your never going to remove the ability for random luck-kills it will get.
haha 2:35-2:52 explains NS2 perfectly. i feel sorry for the newbs sometimes. sad really how much that description fits ;( seen so many rookie stomps, especially on the sales. and i've given like 5 copies of the game to friends, all of whom gave up because (to quote that vid) "they didn't stick around long enough to compete, and get smashed by veteran players"
but, then again, haveing a community like this, you get to know all the regular players and everyone knowns each other. and you don't get that with other games. just one of the reasons i love the game.
On topic with the GL's someone mentioned that they should switch the price with flamers, i think that would be great. flamers are awesome, but too expensive to be that helpful. and GL's are cheap, and way too useful XD. if you time your shots, you can kill a lerk/fade easy. though i'm no good at it
I would like that very much since it requires marines to take down whips first before unleashing gl's on hive. Unfortunately doesn't fix the problem of direct hitting fades. I think my suggestion fixes that.
Ok, this may be late, but do you realize that back in 2012 this was an entirely different weapon? Hell, it was an entirely different game! You can't just say "There always have been GL complaints, therefore a GL fix is overdue". The game keeps getting patched and tweaked and often new issues arise while old ones slowly disappear. That argument ist not valid in NS2.
Badge Earned: (Tiny 16x16 badge that has a red cross covering a GL)
NS2 Fix Confirmed.
All "seriousness" aside, TF2 added Critical Hits to the classic TFC formula, to give rookies the chance to mow down a better player in spectacular gibby fashio and doesn't give a better player any greater of a chance than the rookie, not sure if this would fit for NS2 however.
E.g.
Current
130 damage (260 vs structures)
Revised
40 grenade impact damage (80 vs structures) + 90 explosion splash damage (180 vs structures)
This makes mindless grenade spam ineffective at bringing down crucial structures as the total damage is separated between the grenade impact and the actual explosion itself. This also allows skilled lobbers to deal some damage to Kharaa players on direct hit, instead of it bouncing off harmlessly due to the minimum fuse time before a grenade explodes.