Just disclude power nodes that don't (a) have an IP, (b) have a phase gate, and/or (c) have an obs (one closest to a CC - i.e. disclude if there's a closer powered obs to its closest CC). Gets rid of any potential spam issues.
"situational based alerts which means you want the UI to do the coming for you" - every alert is a 'situational-based alert'. Person under attack? -> Send an alert based on the situation that somebody is under attack. Cutting down on order spam by removing non-pertinent alerts (i.e. when you don't need to be alerted) would just be part of a well-designed system, rather than "getting the UI to do the comming for you".
"Why is this thread still on?" - I assume because people are still having issues with it. Sure, it's hard to tell in the thick of a game if the alerts aren't working or if it is merely the result of inattentiveness. However, it seems strange that this problem specifically relates to powernodes and not other buildings, lending credence to the fact that perhaps it's not all in everybody's heads (else why would the problem be powernode specific? If it's really human-error this would apply to all buildings under attack where the alert is simply missed). Also, I still open my map and notice rooms that don't even have a powernode icon. It's kinda hard to expect field units to respond to powernode hits when they're not even there on the map. Apparently this is all working fine though....................................................................
I was in the Lifesfun server this past weekend, and they had power node icons that flash red when under attack. It seemed ultra simple, yet highly informative when glancing at the map. We don't need any other fancy crap, just treat the power nodes like regular buildings so they flash red when taking damage. The thin red circle that's only up 1/3 of the time does not do the job.
I was in the Lifesfun server this past weekend, and they had power node icons that flash red when under attack. It seemed ultra simple, yet highly informative when glancing at the map. We don't need any other fancy crap, just treat the power nodes like regular buildings so they flash red when taking damage. The thin red circle that's only up 1/3 of the time does not do the job.
that is literally all I've been pushing for this entire thread. but apparently artificial skill trumps consistency.
I have way over 1k hour in this game, and I still miss many attacks on main powernode/obs If they do any sort of damage to CC, "Command station taking damage" instantly gets my attention, otherwise, if I'm busy medspamming marine fighting lerk or fade, or managing arcs, I can just not notice red dots + flashing radar on map + flashing control group... Like if I was DOS commander compared to Windows commander (I mean I can perform only one task at a time).
Yes, it's only my problem, but I wish there was a way to ease this for commanders that play less RTS. Say, like if you you could mark any structure(s) for 'special warning'. So it says something out loud when this structure is being attacked to draw you attention.
How many structures you mark is only your choice. If you mark only one, you always know what structure is under attack. If you mark too much, it could become more a of a problem for you. You can not use it at all - it's only an option.
I completely agree with this. Forgetting the base as a commander while assaulting somewhere (for instance a Hive) often happens (by accident) and this (commander) mistake ruins the game for marines. Maybe this should only be active when you have an Observatory in that base. So if the Obs spots biting on whatever structure in its proximity it should pop-up a message like marines asking for meds/ammo.
It's kind of funny to see people argue for a harder to read interface to arbitrarily make it harder for a comm in order to separate good comms from bad ones. It is about the lamest excuse I've ever heard.
So no true for beginning commanders. Veteran commanders will just ignore it. It just makes the game more enjoyable for the lower skilled / new players in commanding guidance. It is not that good commanders are easy to be found these days.
Another thing that might save the day is removing IP requirement for building Obs and Robo. You need infantry portals to place those, and if you only have IPs at one base and power goes down, you can't build quick obs or robo where marines are at, so you can't power surge original obs with newly built robo and beacon or build new obs and beacon, providing you have no other CC (or sell CC that might interfere with intended beacon location).
What is the point of requiring IP for something in first place?
And then, change 'no marines left' winning conditions so if there is a MAC building an IP (that is already in room with power) or repairing/building power in room that has fully built IPs, game does not end. I mean, current wining conditions are "All CC's down" and "All marines dead with no way to spawn". When second one is reached, game should check if there is a MAC that is already building an IP in powered room, or restoring power in a room that has unpowered IPs. If this one task that MAC performs at the moment will allow marines to spawn, game should not end. Much like alien hive growing by itself.
Another thing that might save the day is removing IP requirement for building Obs and Robo. You need infantry portals to place those, and if you only have IPs at one base and power goes down, you can't build quick obs or robo where marines are at, so you can't power surge original obs with newly built robo and beacon or build new obs and beacon, providing you have no other CC (or sell CC that might interfere with intended beacon location).
What is the point of requiring IP for something in first place?
And then, change 'no marines left' winning conditions so if there is a MAC building an IP (that is already in room with power) or repairing/building power in room that has fully built IPs, game does not end. I mean, current wining conditions are "All CC's down" and "All marines dead with no way to spawn". When second one is reached, game should check if there is a MAC that is already building an IP in powered room, or restoring power in a room that has unpowered IPs. If this one task that MAC performs at the moment will allow marines to spawn, game should not end. Much like alien hive growing by itself.
I'd push for neither of these things. power surge is one of those bonus things that really isn't necessary given enough awareness. and... do you realize how long an IP takes to build or a powernode takes to repair with a Mac? that's one of those changes that would impact one in a million games. im not being hyperbolic, I legitimately think it would be one in a million. maybe a sentry nest covering the power... but a couple skulks could.probably chew down the chair faster than the Mac could get the node back up.
And then, change 'no marines left' winning conditions so if there is a MAC building an IP (that is already in room with power) or repairing/building power in room that has fully built IPs, game does not end. I mean, current wining conditions are "All CC's down" and "All marines dead with no way to spawn". When second one is reached, game should check if there is a MAC that is already building an IP in powered room, or restoring power in a room that has unpowered IPs. If this one task that MAC performs at the moment will allow marines to spawn, game should not end. Much like alien hive growing by itself.
I reckon, even if it's unpowered it should still allow the game to carry on if either:
a) it has the 'build power node' in the order queue
or b) the end of it's order queue would leave it in close enough proximity to the node that it would start building it automatically.
Likewise for the other way round (building node first then IP), and also it shouldn't already need to be building by the time the marines all die, thus not triggering a loss if it's only on its way to build the stuff to allow spawning.
It's the only means for Aliens to counterpush ever if they loose hard: Hoping that the commander doesn't react fast enough.
Special alarms that base-powernodes are attacked? Thats basically the same as automatic beacon...
The game should not be balanced around interface bugs.
Easy there Condescending Wonka. There's no need to be rude. Especially considering power nodes disappearing is a common bug - something as a playtester you should know.
From your video:
This is not an isolated incident nor is it unique to Atrium powernode on summit. It happens quite often, and has for a while now.
I feel it should also be pointed out that the 'Data Core' text makes the powernode in that room barely visible -> something I recall was requested to be changed a long time ago and we were told would be fixed.
Easy there Condescending Wonka. There's no need to be rude. Especially considering power nodes disappearing is a common bug - something as a playtester you should know.
From your video:
This is not an isolated incident nor is it unique to Atrium powernode on summit. It happens quite often, and has for a while now.
I feel it should also be pointed out that the 'Data Core' text makes the powernode in that room barely visible -> something I recall was requested to be changed a long time ago and we were told would be fixed.
Really? Who told you that? Because I never got that report. If you had told me directly this takes like 5 seconds to fix. Which means, fixed for next build. Also I believe the problem with power node icons not showing up is after they get destroyed they disappear from the minimap, and after repairing they don't show up again.
I could be misremembering and it might have been some other room with the same problem, but I'm pretty sure it was Data Core. I apologize if I got it wrong - and thanks for getting it fixed for the next build.
If the issue with powernode icons disappearing has been identified that's good news. It may be worth it to confirm with IronHorse that the powernode was destroyed prior to recording his video.
edit: Pipe Junction power node appears to be relatively hidden under the text as well, although perhaps not as badly as Data Core.
Another thing that might save the day is removing IP requirement for building Obs and Robo. You need infantry portals to place those, and if you only have IPs at one base and power goes down, you can't build quick obs or robo where marines are at, so you can't power surge original obs with newly built robo and beacon or build new obs and beacon, providing you have no other CC (or sell CC that might interfere with intended beacon location).
What is the point of requiring IP for something in first place?
And then, change 'no marines left' winning conditions so if there is a MAC building an IP (that is already in room with power) or repairing/building power in room that has fully built IPs, game does not end. I mean, current wining conditions are "All CC's down" and "All marines dead with no way to spawn". When second one is reached, game should check if there is a MAC that is already building an IP in powered room, or restoring power in a room that has unpowered IPs. If this one task that MAC performs at the moment will allow marines to spawn, game should not end. Much like alien hive growing by itself.
I'd push for neither of these things. power surge is one of those bonus things that really isn't necessary given enough awareness. and... do you realize how long an IP takes to build or a powernode takes to repair with a Mac? that's one of those changes that would impact one in a million games. im not being hyperbolic, I legitimately think it would be one in a million. maybe a sentry nest covering the power... but a couple skulks could.probably chew down the chair faster than the Mac could get the node back up.
It's not gamebreaking or anything. And imagine an actual comeback (that should be even more rare) after this situation. Totally worth few lines of code.
power surge is one of those bonus things that really isn't necessary given enough awareness
You never thought of offensive power surge use? There are... a few.
but a couple skulks could.probably chew down the chair faster than the Mac could get the node back up
Maybe they have no idea that all marines are dead and have no means to spawn and won't go to other marine tech point as soon. Maybe comm dropped IP way before CC went down and MAC almost finished it. And hundreds more of maybe. You know, pub games could be like this.
I could be misremembering and it might have been some other room with the same problem, but I'm pretty sure it was Data Core. I apologize if I got it wrong - and thanks for getting it fixed for the next build.
If the issue with powernode icons disappearing has been identified that's good news. It may be worth it to confirm with IronHorse that the powernode was destroyed prior to recording his video.
edit: Pipe Junction power node appears to be relatively hidden under the text as well, although perhaps not as badly as Data Core.
Yeah, when I made the change I went ingame first to check which location names overlapped with the icon, so Pipe was moved too.
Another thing that might save the day is removing IP requirement for building Obs and Robo. You need infantry portals to place those, and if you only have IPs at one base and power goes down, you can't build quick obs or robo where marines are at, so you can't power surge original obs with newly built robo and beacon or build new obs and beacon, providing you have no other CC (or sell CC that might interfere with intended beacon location).
What is the point of requiring IP for something in first place?
And then, change 'no marines left' winning conditions so if there is a MAC building an IP (that is already in room with power) or repairing/building power in room that has fully built IPs, game does not end. I mean, current wining conditions are "All CC's down" and "All marines dead with no way to spawn". When second one is reached, game should check if there is a MAC that is already building an IP in powered room, or restoring power in a room that has unpowered IPs. If this one task that MAC performs at the moment will allow marines to spawn, game should not end. Much like alien hive growing by itself.
I'd push for neither of these things. power surge is one of those bonus things that really isn't necessary given enough awareness. and... do you realize how long an IP takes to build or a powernode takes to repair with a Mac? that's one of those changes that would impact one in a million games. im not being hyperbolic, I legitimately think it would be one in a million. maybe a sentry nest covering the power... but a couple skulks could.probably chew down the chair faster than the Mac could get the node back up.
It's not gamebreaking or anything. And imagine an actual comeback (that should be even more rare) after this situation. Totally worth few lines of code.
power surge is one of those bonus things that really isn't necessary given enough awareness
You never thought of offensive power surge use? There are... a few.
but a couple skulks could.probably chew down the chair faster than the Mac could get the node back up
Maybe they have no idea that all marines are dead and have no means to spawn and won't go to other marine tech point as soon. Maybe comm dropped IP way before CC went down and MAC almost finished it. And hundreds more of maybe. You know, pub games could be like this.
offensive surging has no bearing on this I don't think.
and what kind of terribad skulk wouldn't notice either taking out the power in main or chewing down all the ips? it's not like they can spontaneously die withoutenemy support of some kind.
in the case of terribad players I'd push to keep any win conditions that end the misery faster.
I feels like the.Mac takes like 3 full minutes to.weld up a power node.
I've sent Macs on recap missions before... im pretty sure it'd have been faster to hop out the chair and build myself, even with transit times.
This has been addressed multiple times in multiple patches.
Despite this, there has been internal suggestions and even disagreements with the end result..
But where things are now are intended.
This is troubling.
My understanding is that powernodes never trigger the audio alert. Is that right?
If so, the current system is best described as deliberate obfuscation for (balance?) reasons.
Whatever reasons there are, this problem invariably confuses new commanders and trips up even experienced commanders. Players seem to have an expectation that the audio alert should trigger and they're surprised and frustrated to find that's not the case - which is why this kind of thread keeps popping up. This is a gigantic clue that you've got an interface problem.
I'd like to hear any argument from the BT people as to why powernodes shouldn't count as buildings for the purposes of these alerts.
That aside, the audio alert is not an ideal mechanism to begin with. There should be some ongoing way to identify that something's under attack. Like a big icon on the commander's view that goes instantly red and stays red until an attack hasn't happened for, like, 1 second. What that icon is tied to should have some smarts, as discussed earlier in this thread (CC, IPs, PG, Obs, Base power nodes). That's my best guess at a better system, but play testing it would probably lead to improvements.
But judging from IronHorse's quote, the problem is the BT crew is divided between:
Give the commander the best information to enable the best decision making vs.
Give the aliens an advantage by making the commander interface somewhat confusing.
That has to be resolved first, before any improvement can be made.
unless they meant to make powernodes the only structures in the game besides clogs that don't get a map icon...
???
Hehe, did you not notice these as well?
And even if they flashed red like other structures, it would be too small / more unnoticeable than a large flashing circle
They tend to vanish once they have died and been rebuilt.
This thread is sad, not the thread itself but the fact that there is a need for this thread to exist.
But judging from IronHorse's quote, the problem is the BT crew is divided between:
Give the commander the best information to enable the best decision making vs.
Give the aliens an advantage by making the commander interface somewhat confusing.
I don't think anybody's deliberately trying to make things confusing.
However there seems to be a minority opinion on these boards that a reliable and robust alert system would be considered 'hand-holding' - which I find equally unsettling.
There's also potential issues regarding alert spam (re: decreasing the alert refresh window), which I'm sure with some creative thinking could easily be resolved.
Comments
and yet when the alien hive gets hit, it screeches SO loud and it could be heard @ every corner of the map.
"situational based alerts which means you want the UI to do the coming for you" - every alert is a 'situational-based alert'. Person under attack? -> Send an alert based on the situation that somebody is under attack. Cutting down on order spam by removing non-pertinent alerts (i.e. when you don't need to be alerted) would just be part of a well-designed system, rather than "getting the UI to do the comming for you".
"Why is this thread still on?" - I assume because people are still having issues with it. Sure, it's hard to tell in the thick of a game if the alerts aren't working or if it is merely the result of inattentiveness. However, it seems strange that this problem specifically relates to powernodes and not other buildings, lending credence to the fact that perhaps it's not all in everybody's heads (else why would the problem be powernode specific? If it's really human-error this would apply to all buildings under attack where the alert is simply missed). Also, I still open my map and notice rooms that don't even have a powernode icon. It's kinda hard to expect field units to respond to powernode hits when they're not even there on the map. Apparently this is all working fine though....................................................................
that is literally all I've been pushing for this entire thread. but apparently artificial skill trumps consistency.
Yes, it's only my problem, but I wish there was a way to ease this for commanders that play less RTS. Say, like if you you could mark any structure(s) for 'special warning'. So it says something out loud when this structure is being attacked to draw you attention.
How many structures you mark is only your choice. If you mark only one, you always know what structure is under attack. If you mark too much, it could become more a of a problem for you. You can not use it at all - it's only an option.
So no true for beginning commanders. Veteran commanders will just ignore it. It just makes the game more enjoyable for the lower skilled / new players in commanding guidance. It is not that good commanders are easy to be found these days.
What is the point of requiring IP for something in first place?
And then, change 'no marines left' winning conditions so if there is a MAC building an IP (that is already in room with power) or repairing/building power in room that has fully built IPs, game does not end. I mean, current wining conditions are "All CC's down" and "All marines dead with no way to spawn". When second one is reached, game should check if there is a MAC that is already building an IP in powered room, or restoring power in a room that has unpowered IPs. If this one task that MAC performs at the moment will allow marines to spawn, game should not end. Much like alien hive growing by itself.
I reckon, even if it's unpowered it should still allow the game to carry on if either:
a) it has the 'build power node' in the order queue
or b) the end of it's order queue would leave it in close enough proximity to the node that it would start building it automatically.
Likewise for the other way round (building node first then IP), and also it shouldn't already need to be building by the time the marines all die, thus not triggering a loss if it's only on its way to build the stuff to allow spawning.
Easy there Condescending Wonka. There's no need to be rude. Especially considering power nodes disappearing is a common bug - something as a playtester you should know.
From your video:
This is not an isolated incident nor is it unique to Atrium powernode on summit. It happens quite often, and has for a while now.
I feel it should also be pointed out that the 'Data Core' text makes the powernode in that room barely visible -> something I recall was requested to be changed a long time ago and we were told would be fixed.
Really? Who told you that? Because I never got that report. If you had told me directly this takes like 5 seconds to fix. Which means, fixed for next build. Also I believe the problem with power node icons not showing up is after they get destroyed they disappear from the minimap, and after repairing they don't show up again.
If the issue with powernode icons disappearing has been identified that's good news. It may be worth it to confirm with IronHorse that the powernode was destroyed prior to recording his video.
edit: Pipe Junction power node appears to be relatively hidden under the text as well, although perhaps not as badly as Data Core.
It's not gamebreaking or anything. And imagine an actual comeback (that should be even more rare) after this situation. Totally worth few lines of code.
You never thought of offensive power surge use? There are... a few.
Maybe they have no idea that all marines are dead and have no means to spawn and won't go to other marine tech point as soon. Maybe comm dropped IP way before CC went down and MAC almost finished it. And hundreds more of maybe. You know, pub games could be like this.
Yeah, when I made the change I went ingame first to check which location names overlapped with the icon, so Pipe was moved too.
offensive surging has no bearing on this I don't think.
and what kind of terribad skulk wouldn't notice either taking out the power in main or chewing down all the ips? it's not like they can spontaneously die withoutenemy support of some kind.
in the case of terribad players I'd push to keep any win conditions that end the misery faster.
I feels like the.Mac takes like 3 full minutes to.weld up a power node.
I've sent Macs on recap missions before... im pretty sure it'd have been faster to hop out the chair and build myself, even with transit times.
My understanding is that powernodes never trigger the audio alert. Is that right?
If so, the current system is best described as deliberate obfuscation for (balance?) reasons.
Whatever reasons there are, this problem invariably confuses new commanders and trips up even experienced commanders. Players seem to have an expectation that the audio alert should trigger and they're surprised and frustrated to find that's not the case - which is why this kind of thread keeps popping up. This is a gigantic clue that you've got an interface problem.
I'd like to hear any argument from the BT people as to why powernodes shouldn't count as buildings for the purposes of these alerts.
That aside, the audio alert is not an ideal mechanism to begin with. There should be some ongoing way to identify that something's under attack. Like a big icon on the commander's view that goes instantly red and stays red until an attack hasn't happened for, like, 1 second. What that icon is tied to should have some smarts, as discussed earlier in this thread (CC, IPs, PG, Obs, Base power nodes). That's my best guess at a better system, but play testing it would probably lead to improvements.
But judging from IronHorse's quote, the problem is the BT crew is divided between:
That has to be resolved first, before any improvement can be made.
They tend to vanish once they have died and been rebuilt.
This thread is sad, not the thread itself but the fact that there is a need for this thread to exist.
I don't think anybody's deliberately trying to make things confusing.
However there seems to be a minority opinion on these boards that a reliable and robust alert system would be considered 'hand-holding' - which I find equally unsettling.
There's also potential issues regarding alert spam (re: decreasing the alert refresh window), which I'm sure with some creative thinking could easily be resolved.
I tried to phrase that as a pro x vs pro y statement, like pro life vs pro choice... but I can't really see the other side.