Shooters and learning curves.

Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I was just reading the comments on the NS2WC story on PCGamer - http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/11/12/natural-selection-2-world-championship-sees-crowdfunding-success/

I read this post and thought it might be an interesting topic of discussion (relevant part in BOLD)...
Congratulations on the championship successes. NS2 deserves great esports fame. NS2 is immensely rewarding to play when everyone is past the newbie stages, particularly because of the great strategic depth. It is the best kind of game.

Makes me yet again wonder why essentially mindless action shooters like call of duty, unreal tournament, or quake have always been more popular then games like natural selection, savage, or firearms. If a game genre like MOBA can attract players to complicated games with difficult learning curves, why is it the opposite with shooting games?

I guess Blizzard saw this because they are about to dumb the shit out of the MOBA genre with HotS, CCG's too with Hearthstone.

My guess is its some psychological crap about gratification or feeling of rewards? It sucks though. NS2 has steadily increased its player base, but I honestly thought it would have achieved 10 times the current playerbase when I first played the first feature-rich stable beta build.

So why do you think that typically shooters that have a high learning curve are less successful than games like Starcraft or MOBA's which also have steep learning curve's?

Is it because we just expect shooters in general to be a mindless activity? Does thinking and shooting put a lot of people off? What do you think?
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Comments

  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    edited January 2014
    Well, if you play LoL for the first time, and you suck, you'll still be able to run around and kill minions, collect gold, level up, buy equipment, etc... So, you can be a terrible player but still enjoy certain aspects of the game. If you play a "hardcore" shooter for the first time, and you suck, you'll just be getting shot over and over again. So it can be very unrewarding in the short term, making it much less appealing in general, except of course for people who enjoy a challenge like that. :)
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    Neoken wrote: »
    Well, if you play LoL for the first time, and you suck, you'll still be able to run around and kill minions, collect gold, level up, buy equipment, etc... So, you can be a terrible player but still enjoy certain aspects of the game. If you play a "hardcore" shooter for the first time, and you suck, you'll just be getting shot over and over again. So it can be very unrewarding in the short term, making it much less appealing in general, except of course for people who enjoy a challenge like that. :)

    I dunno, if you suck at LoL you are likely to feed, which is likely to lead to you getting flamed. A 5v5 or 3v3 places much more responsibility on the individual player than 12v12 ns2 pubs. Besides none of the other aspects of the game are important if it does not lead to killing enemy heroes or pushing lanes.

    Also I hear quake had a very high skill ceiling, higher than ns2 even.
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members
    edited January 2014
    Well here is something to consider:

    I find that people complain more when they're on the alien side, rather than the marine side. There seems to be the sentiment that "that skulk dodged my bullets, or I sucked really badly, so I deserved to die" as opposed to the alien equivalent of "Despite a half decent ambush he hopped away and still killed me, or, despite landing several hits his commander kept him alive with meds".

    Obviously that isn't to say a lerk or fade cannot be annoying, just that in general that new people tend to be more frustrated as a skulk against the marines. You also have to take into consideration that your lifeforms can be easily killed (you're new) and are not easily replaced, whereas if you lose your shotgun marine, you can often pick someone else's shotgun up etc. Lifeforms are also less counter intuitive than marines (I mean if you've played shooters before you should at least have a basic grasp of how to aim, reload etc) whereas as an alien it could be completely new to you.



    To the quote, some evolutionary logic, perhaps:
    Why do we play videogames? Why do we play sport? I won't go into too much depth, but to put it a little simplistically, they are proxies of the sorts of things we used to do in the past. Fight...Race...Dance...Whatever - competition to convince the opposite sex that we are worth reproducing with in order to proliferate our genetic material. We evolved these traits and they come under the study of game theory. Interesting pun. But the aforementioned is quite banal, so do I have anything to offer in the means of an original explanation? I think so.

    I was watching Bitey's stream and he decided to put on GTA 4. He got incredibly bored and said he hated slow games. I also heard him speaking to Hopsu about RPGs and how boring he found them. Perhaps it is part of his evolutionarily stable strategy (ESS) to express certain traits above others; remember that multiple ESS can co-exist in a given environment (for example, think of how some people are much more 'selfish' than others). Anyway, without delving too far and writing a monograph, I would say it might just be that Natural Selection 2 stimulates us in certain ways - with the fast FPS action and the somewhat alternative RTS experience. However it might be that the extent of this stimulation does not exceed a certain threshold such that the game can be enjoyed by a substantial enough portion of human beings that express a sufficiently similar ESS as you and I (people who like NS2). So say for example you take SC2 (hardcore fast-paced, seemingly cocaine-fuelled clusterfuck of an RTS) v the comparatively slower paced in terms of motor movement but distinctively equivalent requirement of cognitive load (now you need to be better at communicating with others, understanding their different personalities and how to lead them; increased chaos in the nuances of your opponents - now you're against 6 people, not, as SC2 is primarily played, 1). Both games may incur a cognitive load, but in strikingly different ways. It might just be that a greater proportion of the population has an ESS that 'identifies' with the demands of SC2 than they do with NS2.

    There are obviously a bunch of other nuances to consider, but this comment is long enough as it is. This is quite an interesting topic.



    Or for an alternative explanation: WELL GOD DID IT
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members
    edited February 2014
    I realise my comment was too general. I'll do a separate one here so it's more relevant to the OP.

    Maybe we can think of it this way - why are certain sports more mainstream than others? Why is football (soccer) more mainstream than chess? There are many explanations (funding, schools etc) but these are merely symptoms. If chess were the preferred competition of choice it would have come to dominate in terms of its funding and marketing etc etc.

    Yet it didn't. Why? As I stated in my previous comment, it could be a function of ESS numbers. Here's a muse - maybe Call of Duty is the gaming analogue of football, and chess is the analogue of NS2. Now, I'm not saying this is a perfect analogy. Both CoD and NS2 appear to have more in common than do chess and football, but that doesn't contradict the analogy - just makes it less potent. Perhaps football and CoD have people of a particular ESS (say for example these people like super fast action wherein more risks are taken - but the risks are punished less because you're thrown straight back into the action). I don't know the statistics, but perhaps chess comebacks are more rare than football ones (for example one of the greatest players of all time, Garry Kasparov once remarked that his computer opponent never had to lament over moves in the past, whereas he as a human was eventually weighed down with too much cognitive load).

    Oh god here I go with my convoluted tangents again.

    Might as well jump on the bandwagon like the dirty slut I am.

    It'd be nice if @Golden could jump in here and explain how the mentalities of gamers works. I know it has something to do with evolution, revolution or Natural Selection or something like that.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I can only speak from my experience. I came from F2P shooters which admittedly arn't great. I played cod but didn't love it. The games I truely loved were/are single player fps games like the stalker series, at least till ns2 came out. I was not lucky enough to have played ns1 in its prime, but I did start ns2 in b208. I did not understand how these guys could kill me so easily. I stuck through it because I thought the concept was gold. An FPS with enough RTS to make it interesting. I am still here, a 1000+ hours in. Still love this game. With this game I found my niche.

    Friends who know I love this game have tried it. I can never get them to play more than a day or two though. They never give me decent reason. They honestly had no complaints. They said it was fun. Would they play again. Nope.
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    Those other games don't have commanders thus don't have as much of their experience hinging on the ability of a single player, nor do they have to wait 5 - 10 minutes for a game to start waiting for someone to go commander.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Interesting comments guys, how about less on NS2 specifically, as there are other games with steep learning curves which have also not made the success levels you would think, as mentioned in the original post. It does seem shooters with depth seem to put people off.

    Also I hear quake had a very high skill ceiling, higher than ns2 even.

    Quake had a lot of movement abilities available, but not really depth in the way NS2 has. It tested aim and targetting/tracking/leading while trying to move around using complex movement.

    NS2 requires a lot more thinking, and awareness of the meta game, and it is this depth that seems to put people off, as far as I can see.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    I realise my comment was too general. I'll do a separate one here so it's more relevant to the OP.

    Maybe we can think of it this way - why are certain sports more mainstream than others? Why is football (soccer) more mainstream than chess? There are many explanations (funding, schools etc) but these are merely symptoms. If chess were the preferred competition of choice it would have come to dominate in terms of its funding and marketing etc etc.

    Yet it didn't. Why? As I stated in my previous comment, it could be a function of ESS numbers. Here's a muse - maybe Call of Duty is the gaming analogue of football, and chess is the analogue of NS2. Now, I'm not saying this is a perfect analogy. Both CoD and NS2 appear to have more in common than do chess and football, but that doesn't contradict the analogy - just makes it less potent. Perhaps football and CoD have people of a particular ESS (say for example these people like super fast action wherein more risks are taken - but the risks are punished less because you're thrown straight back into the action). I don't know the statistics, but perhaps chess comebacks are more rare than football ones (for example one of the greatest players of all time, Garry Kasparov once remarked that his computer opponent never had to lament over moves in the past, whereas he as a human was eventually weighed down with too much cognitive load).

    Oh god here I go with my convoluted tangents again.

    Might as well jump on the bandwagon like the dirty slut I am.

    It'd be nice if @Golden could jump in here and explain how the mentalities of gamers works. I know it has something to do with evolution, revolution or Natural Selection or something like that.

    You can only tag golden when speaking about the skill system. -2 points for you sir.
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members
    edited February 2014
    joshhh wrote: »
    You can only tag golden when speaking about the skill system. -2 points for you sir.


    You said that with poise and skill, my friend. In fact...

    It'd be nice if @Golden could jump in here and explain how you skillfully made your point... Well there's always Twitter.
    Edit: Actually if he could just explain how I lost two points, rather than more or fewer, then...


    I think Maxx makes some decent points. However, NS2 hasn't had a problem selling. It may not have the marketing power of CoD or similar, but given favourable coverage by people like TB (LOTS of it) you would think that marketing hasn't been much of a problem. The major problem is retention.

    As for the high learning curve...If you jump into a game and you feel totally out of your depth, you might be inclined (as most are) to just try another game. I'll admit I did the same with DOTA 2 (it has a lot of depth, but more in the "have you spent 12312313132 hours learning stuff" sort of sense). Well life is pretty short and I'll be dead in several decades so I'd rather just play something else. I can empathise, thus, with those who only give NS2 a few hours play and then leave.

    In fact, I played NS2 for around 20 hours and then I stopped. I can't remember why I came back, but for some reason I did. It wasn't until I had plowed some more hours into it (I must have been bored of all my other games) that I finally found some traction. Maybe that is the key. It's just all a bit overwhelming in the beginning. I think you feel that way about certain things. You can't improve until you've gotten a basic enough grasp of things. I think back to how boring I found biology when I was in school, but it was mainly because they made us learn through rote revision of boring 1-line facts, as opposed to explaining concepts. It's not until you have enough of a grounding of basic biology that you can really look at some of the beautiful theories and really enjoy and enthrall yourself. NS2 can be pretty overwhelming in a sort of analogous manner. It took me a few dozen hours until I could finally begin to understand the real physics of the engine, and the concepts of double pressure etc. Then I could really enjoy the science of the gameplay.

    Of course, to get there, you need to leap the hurdles, of which there are many in NS2. Whether it be the poor performance (since improved from release, but still poor for many) or the fact that rookies often have single figure IQs and go on non-rookie servers, leaving many non-rookies no option but to go on rookie servers, thus leading to crap matches, or even the, perhaps, extra emphasis on teamplay over other MMS, new people are turned away...

    Woo so positive!

  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
    Neoken wrote: »
    Well, if you play LoL for the first time, and you suck, you'll still be able to run around and kill minions, collect gold, level up, buy equipment, etc... So, you can be a terrible player but still enjoy certain aspects of the game. If you play a "hardcore" shooter for the first time, and you suck, you'll just be getting shot over and over again. So it can be very unrewarding in the short term, making it much less appealing in general, except of course for people who enjoy a challenge like that. :)

    I dunno, if you suck at LoL you are likely to feed, which is likely to lead to you getting flamed. A 5v5 or 3v3 places much more responsibility on the individual player than 12v12 ns2 pubs. Besides none of the other aspects of the game are important if it does not lead to killing enemy heroes or pushing lanes.

    Also I hear quake had a very high skill ceiling, higher than ns2 even.

    You'll be matched up with the most equally skilled players possible in LoL because of matchmaking.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    edited February 2014
    Soul_Rider wrote: »

    Also I hear quake had a very high skill ceiling, higher than ns2 even.

    Quake had a lot of movement abilities available, but not really depth in the way NS2 has. It tested aim and targetting/tracking/leading while trying to move around using complex movement.

    NS2 requires a lot more thinking, and awareness of the meta game, and it is this depth that seems to put people off, as far as I can see.
    Quake depth is a bit of a tricky thing. Blasting away at maxed out DM server isn't that tricky even if there are bunch of details in that too. Meanwhile dueling is very challenging. When I tried playing QL duels, I could match the opponents in raw FPS skill and still get completely dominated by their map awareness and control.

    For anyone not familiar with Quake dueling, the classic video of Rapha explaining a dm6 match is pretty good insight:



    ---

    As for NS2 and player retention, I think the game is demanding a lot, but is unable to provide the setting that most succesful demanding games have. I'll give a couple of examples what for example Dota 2 has and NS2 doesn't.

    Stability: NS2 has been going through changes and drastic redesign throughout it's lifespan. While it's good that the game keeps receiving dev support, it really needs to have the key ideas figured out and working smootly before most people consider investing more time to the game. The same goes for things like varying performance depending on the version and all that. Also, halfway there features like babblers aren't exactly helping. If you're supposed to put time and effort into learning a game, it better be looking a whole package all the way.

    Tools for learning: The demos are still inexistent, the wiki is probably out of date and in general there's not that much documentation available. You easily get frustrated when the learning process hits dead ends.

    Motivation for learning: Most of the more hardcore games have community pushing out quality extra content that both supports the learning process and motivates you to actually get better. SC2 has Day[9], most FPSes have frag movies, in Dota 2 almost every caster has some insight on the finer details of the game. NS2 only has some occassional, very light play by play commentary.

    Basically NS2 asks for a lot, but at the same time it doesn't show the similar kind of promise as most other more demanding games.
  • ZalamaelZalamael Join Date: 2013-08-18 Member: 186949Members
    Bit hard to take that quote seriously when it lumps UT and Quake in with CoD. Anyone who has played all three of those games would understand how fundamentally different they are from each other.

    I think Neoken hit the nail on the head though, there are far too many players that lack the patience and work ethic to be good at complex games these days. Which is a shame, because once you get over the learning curve, complex games are far more rewarding.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Watched that video so many times. Really excellent commentary.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Join Date: 2013-05-09 Member: 185176
    Well I guess it´s because NS2 does not have the "BAM! 100+ FOR KILLED ENEMEY" thing, wich is what quite a lot of players like, even if they arent, they still can notice a constant progression.
    While I do think, that you dont need pop ups every 5 seconds I do like to complete challanges and get new weapons, and I think many players do as well.
    Maybe a system for usergenerated challanges could do some good(360 a Onos with an Axe?).
    Than there is the lack of gamemodes, there is normal and the arena/TDM mode, maybe you can find a hidden server but that´s it. This is a part where NS2 really can and should look up to battlefield, Call of Duty and even Crysis 3, all of them have multiple gamemodes, from "Extraction" over "Kill confirmed" to simple "Capture the flag".
    The game has one of the best playable "classes" in gaming but what if I simply dont want to play a game that can take up to one hour and even beyond that.
    Get CTF or more in NS2, or even take some mods and make them official.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    edited February 2014
    Because it's more likely for ppl to rage in shooters and most moba/rts tend to have steeper learning curves than shooters to begin with so it's normal for those kinds of games.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
  • G_LockG_Lock Playtester_ FL Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184624Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    coolitic wrote: »
    Because it's more likely for ppl to rage in shooters and most moba/rts tend to have steeper learning curves than shooters to begin with so it's normal for those kinds of games.

    ^ I feel like this has a large part to do with it.

    on an off topic note
    wow i miss savage..

  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited February 2014
    i would love to see a top ns2 player who has never played quake go into it and be nearly as high level as an equally high level quake player would be if he came over to ns2. speaking of duels, of course.



    spoiler - wouldn't happen.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited February 2014
    i would love to see a top ns2 player who has never played quake go into it and be nearly as high level as an equally high level quake player would be if he came over to ns2. speaking of duels, of course.

    Coincidentally, I've noticed that a decent number of top NS2 players have backgrounds in Quake and/or Counter Strike.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited February 2014
    Makes me yet again wonder why essentially mindless action shooters like call of duty, unreal tournament, or quake have always been more popular then games like ...

    What in the actual fuck did I just read. Really, CoD UT and Quake are all mindless shooters, like, they were compared? Together? For real?
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    @Ghosthree3

    That was a quote I pulled off the PCGamer site as I thought it provoked discussion, please do not edit a quote to make it seem like I said that.

    Just because this person doesn't understand Quake or UT, doesn't need to de-rail the general point of the thread.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I did not mean to imply they were your words, I will correct.
  • BobRossTheBossBobRossTheBoss Join Date: 2012-12-31 Member: 176824Members
    edited February 2014
    i would love to see a top ns2 player who has never played quake go into it and be nearly as high level as an equally high level quake player would be if he came over to ns2. speaking of duels, of course.



    spoiler - wouldn't happen.

    As alien or marine? :D

    Not doubting the FPS skill of top quake players compared to top NS2 players, but alien is a little bit different.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    @BobRossTheBoss Quake is sooo not just about shooting skills.
  • BobRossTheBossBobRossTheBoss Join Date: 2012-12-31 Member: 176824Members
    edited February 2014
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    @BobRossTheBoss Quake is sooo not just about shooting skills.

    Yes I know, the video shows this but it doesn't have the same melee combat that alien play does. I'm sure with practice a quake player could become a good alien but from the start it would not be the same as their dominance as a marine.
  • orbitalshapeorbitalshape gameland Join Date: 2014-02-03 Member: 193754Members
    I need to ask , i may be hard to understand. Truth is this game lacks a lot , u just dont see it cuz u need to get critical, and have understanding and forgiveness at same time .

    Lack of mods: this game lack one serius noob favorite mod - DEATHMATCH
    Combat mod with kill counter limit for win is needed as gamemode on oficial UW servers
    Next is Capture the Flag(res) build all no com needed; all is unlocked and balanced at right res price.
    Lot more but im lazy to write

    Slow load times, most players hate it , some more some less , but most hate it!
    Balance problems, Alien OP in late game, cuz High marine lifeforms Exos are UP- useless
    most of time game is turned when u cant kill that onos and gorge camping at hive, and u lose map control for that time
    This, This hapends in pubs most of time even if u have good team if area where hive is low, and jets not so usefull.

    And lot more, but i think lot of u will not read this so i will not write book here.
    Keep in mine that this above dont apply to me, and most of us, i have SSD and i did not come to Deathmatch.
    But u asked why rest dont come, and now u know some resons.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I need to ask , i may be hard to understand. Truth is this game lacks a lot , u just dont see it cuz u need to get critical, and have understanding and forgiveness at same time .

    Lack of mods: this game lack one serius noob favorite mod - DEATHMATCH

    Skulks with Shotguns :)

  • orbitalshapeorbitalshape gameland Join Date: 2014-02-03 Member: 193754Members
    Mouse wrote: »

    Combat mod with kill counter limit for win is needed as gamemode on Official UW servers

    Official is key world

  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Mouse wrote: »

    Combat mod with kill counter limit for win is needed as gamemode on Official UW servers

    Official is key world

    Too late.
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