What? Try watching it in HD or something, or better yet just test it yourself with a friend.
When your power node is attacked you are *instantly* alerted with 1) A red flashing circle on your mini map as well as full map 2) A pop up notification saying structure is under attack (which actually shows an icon of a power node!!) 3) An audio cue saying "structure under attack" 4) And if you happen to be looking near that room, you'll see the lights flicker as well
@g_lock
I think that's the current problem.. People are easily overwhelmed and are missing the cues. But anyone can mitigate this deficit by following Locklear 's easy steps.. I mean its a singular two key press and you now have yet another visual indicator if you so please.
I don't think you can count the audio cue or the popup, im almost certain that they are maliciously sentient and refuse to cue when it actually matters.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Power Node under attack warnings needs urgent attention for the following reasons:
1. Ineffective Sound
The Power Node does not have its unique "Under Attack" sound. There are almost always structures that are under attack, numbing the commander's ears to such sounds.
2. Infrequent Warnings
Every time the power node is attacked, it only displays a small, red circle on the minimap for 5 seconds. Then, the warnings are suppressed for 10 seconds! It is no wonder that players often complain about the lack of warning from power nodes being destroyed.
3. Ineffective (mini)Map Symbol
The power node icon on the minimap never flashes red when under attacked, as mentioned above. The red circle to signal the warning conveys very little visual impact, when compared to other marine structures that flash red.
At least two of those issues should be improved to reduce "sudden death syndrome" for public marines.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
edited January 2014
It only takes a good 10 seconds for your power to go down to any co-ordinated effort. I at least want to be told 0.1 seconds in, not 5. it takes 1 second to find my obs, and beacon, and 5 seconds to beacon? I had no chance.
Its not just public marines twilite.
Didn't read the thread. Just commanded a 70-minutes game and carried my ... inefficient team to victory.
I think knowing when you are under attack and where is part of the commander's skill. It's one of the things that separates a good comm from a mediocre comm.
@AuroN2, you don't have to search your obs. Pressing R>F>Mouse1 in quick succession doesn't even take a second. I also recommend building a robo lab for power surge if you have spare res. And if you are in a really long game, having a second obs everywhere is just plain awesome
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
@F0rdPerfect I know. i never said 'search for' i said 'find'. which in my case is pressing 1. Which is easier than what you suggested bro.
Anyway, how is knowing if your base is under attack during a hefy rifles vs fades combat (meds, ammo, nanoshields etc) Push on a hive a SKILL? It's unfair that no warning came through and because i don't have a monitor or a computer that will let me run huge resolutions i miss the TINY red dot that goes past my obs? How?
Providing meaningful, relevant information in a clearly readable, comprehensible manner is not "hand holding". It's called good interface, and it's often a difference between success and failure of the product.
Game designers should take clue from military or industrial designs - airport tower control systems, power plant control systems, etc. Each and every one of these systems takes advantages from knowledge about ergonomy, human psychology, etc. to ensure information are presented in relation to their importance and relevance - color coding, visual clues, sound. A system that would print "Sorry, your reactor is about to melt down in ten minutes" in a small letters written on the side of the screen would surely not be considered very good.
Make the map icon flash red when it is taking damage for as long as it is taking damage like literally every other map icon in the game. Of course sometimes the map icon doesn't show AT ALL, which also needs to be fixed.
I would prefer @Ironhorse make a mod where whenever the node is attacked, Iron calmly alerts you "the node is on fire" in his matter-a-fact voice. Then implement it into the game. Problem solved.
I would prefer @Ironhorse make a mod where whenever the node is attacked, Iron calmly alerts you "the node is on fire" in his matter-a-fact voice. Then implement it into the game. Problem solved.
no thank you, his voice could be absolutely hilarious, and laughing my ass off isn't conducive to comming.
unless they meant to make powernodes the only structures in the game besides clogs that don't get a map icon...
???
Hehe, did you not notice these as well?
And even if they flashed red like other structures, it would be too small / more unnoticeable than a large flashing circle
@twiliteblue
I agree with #2 but not #1 for points already mentioned (you will just shift which structure is then attacked more often) and #3 is redundant if you address #2..
Anyway, how is knowing if your base is under attack during a hefy rifles vs fades combat (meds, ammo, nanoshields etc) Push on a hive a SKILL?
How is remaining coolheaded and vigilant for attack on a vital part of your base during a heavy assault NOT a skill? Obviously some people are able to do it and some arent...
unless they meant to make powernodes the only structures in the game besides clogs that don't get a map icon...
???
Hehe, did you not notice these as well?
And even if they flashed red like other structures, it would be too small / more unnoticeable than a large flashing circle
@twiliteblue
I agree with #2 but not #1 for points already mentioned (you will just shift which structure is then attacked more often) and #3 is redundant if you address #2..
you know what I meant. a map icon.I actually forgot we had those... because they are nearly worthless in terms of giving the commander information. I meant a flashy icon. and I would say, nobody would agree that the faint red circle.is more noticeable than the angry red flashing.
also, wtf is up.with cross.and vent nodes? cross is off, and just wtf is wrong with vent?
this has only affected me once as a comm. you just need map awareness. you take out a hive, they may rush your base so be prepared. hopefully your obs position gives them away before the rush. etc.
@F0rdPerfect I know. i never said 'search for' i said 'find'. which in my case is pressing 1. Which is easier than what you suggested bro.
Anyway, how is knowing if your base is under attack during a hefy rifles vs fades combat (meds, ammo, nanoshields etc) Push on a hive a SKILL? It's unfair that no warning came through and because i don't have a monitor or a computer that will let me run huge resolutions i miss the TINY red dot that goes past my obs? How?
@AuroN2 Sorry, I got you wrong there. Somehow I was thinking about scanning...
I suppose you could increase the frequency of the red circle .. but there definitely is consistency at least
Actually, the video shows the problem quite nicely: The red circle on the map is only visible when you checked it *immediately* after the attack started. If the commander checks it a few seconds later (the second time you opened the map in the video), there is absolutely no indication. Then you entered the comm chair, opened the map... and again, there's no indication at all. The second red circle comes so late it will be useless in a real attack.
Like others have pointed out already, the 40% sound and flashing lights appear way to late to take countermeasures.
Some simple solutions I could imagine:
Trigger the power node alert sound and lights whenever it takes non-trivial damage. (There should be a minimum damage so Skulks cannot drive the commander crazy by just parasiting power nodes.) For example, it could be triggered each time the power nodes loses 10% of its combined health+armor, starting at 90%.
If the damage level is critical (for example, below 40% as it is now), the sound+lights keep going until repaired. If the damage is not critical (>40%), it stops after a while until new damage is taken.
Apply the same rules to the red map circle so it is *always* shown as long as damage is applied. This would also keep power nodes at critical health marked until repaired.
Your "Why not the Obs/IP/... as well" argument is valid, but that could be addressed by simply drawing the map icons for damaged buildings in a different color (but not flashing). This would also allow all players to check for damaged buildings quickly.
The second red circle comes so late it will be useless in a real attack.
This is why i have clearly said three times now that the only improvement needed is a higher frequency of this warning on the map.
But no one can claim that there are "lack of alerts when your base is under attack" as this thread claims.
Trigger the power node alert sound and lights whenever it takes non-trivial damage. (There should be a minimum damage so Skulks cannot drive the commander crazy by just parasiting power nodes.) For example, it could be triggered each time the power nodes loses 10% of its combined health+armor, starting at 90%.
If the damage level is critical (for example, below 40% as it is now), the sound+lights keep going until repaired. If the damage is not critical (>40%), it stops after a while until new damage is taken.
Apply the same rules to the red map circle so it is *always* shown as long as damage is applied. This would also keep power nodes at critical health marked until repaired.
Your first suggestion already occurs.. when the powernode takes a "non trivial damage" of 60% of its health. I think changing it to sound off when it loses 10% is just obnoxious audio spam.
The second suggestion also already occurs.. when 40% hp is remaining the sound + lights keep going until repaired??
The 3rd suggestion is again the only thing i have mentioned that needs to be addressed.
Your "Why not the Obs/IP/... as well" argument is valid, but that could be addressed by simply drawing the map icons for damaged buildings in a different color (but not flashing). This would also allow all players to check for damaged buildings quickly.
God no, who would want a rainbow colored map of icons, that would be so confusing and visually unintuitive.
All players can currently check if their buildings are damaged quickly by just looking at the structure, and they really shouldn't be worried about that PG on the other side of the map.. that info is easily accessed by the commander and is his responsibility, really. If he isn't telling people to repair structures that need it, he isn't commanding effectively.
I haven't done that "hotkey the powernode" trick in a while simply because last time I tried it didn't work. Got a voice comm saying "power node at base is getting hit" and it was, but the hotkey icon wasn't flashing and barely had time to beacon.
Same with shade ink, haven't used that in a long time simply cause last time I used it it didn't work (spare me the 'you gotta do it before the scan' lecture cause I tried every possible scenario - right before scan, right before arc, right after scan etc).
I'm a little skeptical of people saying "don't worry, it's working now" because I've heard it before when it isn't working and don't want to lose a game I've been made to believe that thing that are still broken aren't.
Having said all of that, just an idea - powernodes should recieve a higher priority/visibility alert if said powernode is powering a phase gate, an infantry portal, or an obs (perhaps disclude this if the closest command station to the obs has an even closer obs). I remember a while ago when the same discussion was being held is that one of the reasons for lack of powernode alerts is because of measures that prevent 'base under attack' alert spam. This should cut down on said spam as it focuses on power nodes that actually matter rather than lumping it all in with powernodes that only power single extractors.
The second red circle comes so late it will be useless in a real attack.
This is why i have clearly said three times now that the only improvement needed is a higher frequency of this warning on the map.
Yes, I saw that. But "increased frequency" could mean anything... I'd like to see the marker being present (pulsing) non-stop. I don't see why there should ever be a pause from reporting something that can make you instantly lose a match.
If that's what you meant, apologies, but at least to me that wasn't so clear.
But no one can claim that there are "lack of alerts when your base is under attack" as this thread claims.
I wouldn't claim that, but from my limited experience, I can confirm they are way too easy to miss.
In a game just a few hours ago, I had the power node in our main base go down while I was supporting an attack elsewhere (lots of marine requests etc.), and I didn't notice until another building in the base came under attack. And I consider myself quite alert, checking the map frequently, handling marine requests quickly, noticing buildings under attack, ... And that's how I noticed it, I saw a building flashing, jumped to the base... and saw that the power had just gone down.
We recovered from that, but it was quite frustrating as it was so unnecessary.
Your "Why not the Obs/IP/... as well" argument is valid, but that could be addressed by simply drawing the map icons for damaged buildings in a different color (but not flashing). This would also allow all players to check for damaged buildings quickly.
God no, who would want a rainbow colored map of icons, that would be so confusing and visually unintuitive.
*A* different color... not a gradient like a temperature scale, in case that's what you meant by "rainbow". Just make them red if they are below a certain health level. The icons use white and red for damage already, so it would be completely consistent. Also, I'd say it doesn't get any more intuitive than "red=danger". :-)
All players can currently check if their buildings are damaged quickly by just looking at the structure, and they really shouldn't be worried about that PG on the other side of the map.. that info is easily accessed by the commander and is his responsibility, really. If he isn't telling people to repair structures that need it, he isn't commanding effectively.
By the same logic, why are buildings flashing on the map when they take damage? Marines in the same room should notice the attack anyway. And marines in other places... why should they know that the phase gate over there is being attacked? It's the commander's job, isn't it? (Not my opinion, to avoid misunderstandings.)
I prefer marines having the all the information so they can think along on their own. They can't check the map as frequently as the commander, but they should be *able* to. The marine commander is busy enough already, there's no need to burden him with unnecessary micro-management.
Knowing at a glance that nobody repaired a certain structure would also be helpful for the commander. I have had players fend off an attack on a phase gate, only to see them wander off gleefully with nobody repairing the gate. In that case, it was obvious, but sometimes, this is not the case (especially with rookie players).
(tl;dr: keep the red "ping" marker going non-stop for power nodes under attack; mark damaged buildings red on the map until repaired)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited January 2014
@mrfangs
Ah, i see what you mean. Yea i wouldnt be opposed to that then. (damaged structure color indicator)
Here's a tease for anyone reading this thread still... (Disclaimer: it may not look like this when it ships, it may not even happen, this may even be a lie)
@mrfangs
Ah, i see what you mean. Yea i wouldnt be opposed to that then. (damaged structure color indicator)
Here's a tease for anyone reading this thread still... (Disclaimer: it may not look like this when it ships, it may not even happen, this may even be a lie)
looking at this screenshot, wow, power node icon really does just kinda get lost. the yellow of the triangle is similar in brightness to the white border. and the off grey yellow of the rest of the icon really stands out against the grey of a room... it's like writing an important message in highlighter yellow on white paper and expecting not to get yelled at. I think this is the very definition of being aggressively unfriendly to the colorblind.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@amoral
Well if those circles continuously flash, along with the icon itself continuously flashing.. i think that amount of motion alone should do the trick, even for the most colorblind.
There can be game in which you are concentrated enough and then there are those games where it plain and simply annoys you, that there has not been a better warning.
Sure the team on the ground could do its part aswell by shouting warnings and if im playing with some of the guys around here, most of the time its no issue, but on a random pub stacked game, you bet there is gonna be a moment you are away from base just long enough for this very thing to happen and then its over.
So i would try and make it alittle bit more pronnounced.
@amoral
Well if those circles continuously flash, along with the icon itself continuously flashing.. i think that amount of motion alone should do the trick, even for the most colorblind.
Colorblind or no, from what i've gathered, that seems small enough to be missed by even the most attentive of commanders.
just lost a winning game as marine comm to this situation, base got bile rushed "silently" by 4 gorges and no one heard anything. Due to this very design flaw, it's almost a must nowadays for marines to turtle an extra 5-10 minutes and build up a second base no matter how good your team is doing, because you can almost always instantly lose to a losing alien team by their silent bile rush. This is especially true in larger servers since structure hp doesn't scale according player count.
Map awareness applies to more then just the field players. If your pushing a hive you should keep your eye on your base looking for those red dots. A well placed obs, nano, and hot keying obs for beacon are HUGE hey you even have power surge .... If you've clustered you structures bile may still tear you.
Adding alerts for power nodes is obnoxious solution, Hearing "bla bla!!!"for every node is silly. This means you would have to add situational based alerts which means you want the UI to do the coming for you.
Comments
I don't think you can count the audio cue or the popup, im almost certain that they are maliciously sentient and refuse to cue when it actually matters.
1. Ineffective Sound
The Power Node does not have its unique "Under Attack" sound. There are almost always structures that are under attack, numbing the commander's ears to such sounds.
2. Infrequent Warnings
Every time the power node is attacked, it only displays a small, red circle on the minimap for 5 seconds. Then, the warnings are suppressed for 10 seconds! It is no wonder that players often complain about the lack of warning from power nodes being destroyed.
3. Ineffective (mini)Map Symbol
The power node icon on the minimap never flashes red when under attacked, as mentioned above. The red circle to signal the warning conveys very little visual impact, when compared to other marine structures that flash red.
At least two of those issues should be improved to reduce "sudden death syndrome" for public marines.
Its not just public marines twilite.
Didn't read the thread. Just commanded a 70-minutes game and carried my ... inefficient team to victory.
I think knowing when you are under attack and where is part of the commander's skill. It's one of the things that separates a good comm from a mediocre comm.
@AuroN2, you don't have to search your obs. Pressing R>F>Mouse1 in quick succession doesn't even take a second. I also recommend building a robo lab for power surge if you have spare res. And if you are in a really long game, having a second obs everywhere is just plain awesome
Anyway, how is knowing if your base is under attack during a hefy rifles vs fades combat (meds, ammo, nanoshields etc) Push on a hive a SKILL? It's unfair that no warning came through and because i don't have a monitor or a computer that will let me run huge resolutions i miss the TINY red dot that goes past my obs? How?
Game designers should take clue from military or industrial designs - airport tower control systems, power plant control systems, etc. Each and every one of these systems takes advantages from knowledge about ergonomy, human psychology, etc. to ensure information are presented in relation to their importance and relevance - color coding, visual clues, sound. A system that would print "Sorry, your reactor is about to melt down in ten minutes" in a small letters written on the side of the screen would surely not be considered very good.
no thank you, his voice could be absolutely hilarious, and laughing my ass off isn't conducive to comming.
And even if they flashed red like other structures, it would be too small / more unnoticeable than a large flashing circle
@twiliteblue
I agree with #2 but not #1 for points already mentioned (you will just shift which structure is then attacked more often) and #3 is redundant if you address #2..
How is remaining coolheaded and vigilant for attack on a vital part of your base during a heavy assault NOT a skill? Obviously some people are able to do it and some arent...
also, wtf is up.with cross.and vent nodes? cross is off, and just wtf is wrong with vent?
@AuroN2 Sorry, I got you wrong there. Somehow I was thinking about scanning...
Actually, the video shows the problem quite nicely: The red circle on the map is only visible when you checked it *immediately* after the attack started. If the commander checks it a few seconds later (the second time you opened the map in the video), there is absolutely no indication. Then you entered the comm chair, opened the map... and again, there's no indication at all. The second red circle comes so late it will be useless in a real attack.
Like others have pointed out already, the 40% sound and flashing lights appear way to late to take countermeasures.
Some simple solutions I could imagine:
Your "Why not the Obs/IP/... as well" argument is valid, but that could be addressed by simply drawing the map icons for damaged buildings in a different color (but not flashing). This would also allow all players to check for damaged buildings quickly.
But no one can claim that there are "lack of alerts when your base is under attack" as this thread claims.
Your first suggestion already occurs.. when the powernode takes a "non trivial damage" of 60% of its health. I think changing it to sound off when it loses 10% is just obnoxious audio spam.
The second suggestion also already occurs.. when 40% hp is remaining the sound + lights keep going until repaired??
The 3rd suggestion is again the only thing i have mentioned that needs to be addressed.
God no, who would want a rainbow colored map of icons, that would be so confusing and visually unintuitive.
All players can currently check if their buildings are damaged quickly by just looking at the structure, and they really shouldn't be worried about that PG on the other side of the map.. that info is easily accessed by the commander and is his responsibility, really. If he isn't telling people to repair structures that need it, he isn't commanding effectively.
Same with shade ink, haven't used that in a long time simply cause last time I used it it didn't work (spare me the 'you gotta do it before the scan' lecture cause I tried every possible scenario - right before scan, right before arc, right after scan etc).
I'm a little skeptical of people saying "don't worry, it's working now" because I've heard it before when it isn't working and don't want to lose a game I've been made to believe that thing that are still broken aren't.
Having said all of that, just an idea - powernodes should recieve a higher priority/visibility alert if said powernode is powering a phase gate, an infantry portal, or an obs (perhaps disclude this if the closest command station to the obs has an even closer obs). I remember a while ago when the same discussion was being held is that one of the reasons for lack of powernode alerts is because of measures that prevent 'base under attack' alert spam. This should cut down on said spam as it focuses on power nodes that actually matter rather than lumping it all in with powernodes that only power single extractors.
If that's what you meant, apologies, but at least to me that wasn't so clear.
I wouldn't claim that, but from my limited experience, I can confirm they are way too easy to miss.
In a game just a few hours ago, I had the power node in our main base go down while I was supporting an attack elsewhere (lots of marine requests etc.), and I didn't notice until another building in the base came under attack. And I consider myself quite alert, checking the map frequently, handling marine requests quickly, noticing buildings under attack, ... And that's how I noticed it, I saw a building flashing, jumped to the base... and saw that the power had just gone down.
We recovered from that, but it was quite frustrating as it was so unnecessary.
*A* different color... not a gradient like a temperature scale, in case that's what you meant by "rainbow". Just make them red if they are below a certain health level. The icons use white and red for damage already, so it would be completely consistent. Also, I'd say it doesn't get any more intuitive than "red=danger". :-)
By the same logic, why are buildings flashing on the map when they take damage? Marines in the same room should notice the attack anyway. And marines in other places... why should they know that the phase gate over there is being attacked? It's the commander's job, isn't it? (Not my opinion, to avoid misunderstandings.)
I prefer marines having the all the information so they can think along on their own. They can't check the map as frequently as the commander, but they should be *able* to. The marine commander is busy enough already, there's no need to burden him with unnecessary micro-management.
Knowing at a glance that nobody repaired a certain structure would also be helpful for the commander. I have had players fend off an attack on a phase gate, only to see them wander off gleefully with nobody repairing the gate. In that case, it was obvious, but sometimes, this is not the case (especially with rookie players).
(tl;dr: keep the red "ping" marker going non-stop for power nodes under attack; mark damaged buildings red on the map until repaired)
Ah, i see what you mean. Yea i wouldnt be opposed to that then. (damaged structure color indicator)
Here's a tease for anyone reading this thread still... (Disclaimer: it may not look like this when it ships, it may not even happen, this may even be a lie)
looking at this screenshot, wow, power node icon really does just kinda get lost. the yellow of the triangle is similar in brightness to the white border. and the off grey yellow of the rest of the icon really stands out against the grey of a room... it's like writing an important message in highlighter yellow on white paper and expecting not to get yelled at. I think this is the very definition of being aggressively unfriendly to the colorblind.
Well if those circles continuously flash, along with the icon itself continuously flashing.. i think that amount of motion alone should do the trick, even for the most colorblind.
There can be game in which you are concentrated enough and then there are those games where it plain and simply annoys you, that there has not been a better warning.
Sure the team on the ground could do its part aswell by shouting warnings and if im playing with some of the guys around here, most of the time its no issue, but on a random pub stacked game, you bet there is gonna be a moment you are away from base just long enough for this very thing to happen and then its over.
So i would try and make it alittle bit more pronnounced.
Colorblind or no, from what i've gathered, that seems small enough to be missed by even the most attentive of commanders.
Anyways, alerts are easy for me to see/hear and if the comm doesn't warn you, you are screwed for having a bad comm anyways.
Adding alerts for power nodes is obnoxious solution, Hearing "bla bla!!!"for every node is silly. This means you would have to add situational based alerts which means you want the UI to do the coming for you.