I still say the shadow step fade was the best fade for NS2. It could have done with balancing, maybe energy nerfs or damage nerfs which also came anyway later, but really. bunny hopping is such an overdone mechanic in games of the hardcore persuasion, ss fade had a unique mechanic where instead of bunny hopping you simply propelled yourself into a jump of epic proportions. Double jump was cool as hell too.
Fade ATM is still fun, just not as fun, unique or interesting as it has been in the past.
Eh? NS1 fade was 4 swipes to kill A3 mf, you must be slipping in your old age. The fade did more damage per swipe in NS1 (80), with focus being almost 160 (rouuuunding ftw). You could make marines take 5 swipes if you got a medpack and had a3. It was also much easier to dodge swipes however, especially by crouching.
The lerk isn't nearly as overpowered as it was before, but I still absolutely despise spike lerk gameplay, so I wont comment on that.
Ah, my mistake.
One last point, NS2 fade MUST be weaker due to the alien economy (alien's having TRES)
I still say the shadow step fade was the best fade for NS2.
In my experience, its the players who haven't played NS1 that prefer shadow step over blink. I noticed many people who were able to fade at a competitive level in NS2 NOT be able to fade at a competitive level when blink became default.
Blink is very trackable, requiring thought pattern regarding how to engage, how to move during engagements and how to retreat compared to a instant untrackable 4 directional teleport that shadow step is. There was a reason blink was researched in combination with Shadow step; you would time their shotgun shots and push shadow step a moment before that timing, then blink into their face for slash. Rinse and repeat.
Also had extremely easy energy consumption compared to current fade.
All in all, I think people don't like the blink mechanic cause its harder.
I never thought of Fades as a waste of ressources in any way. Especially on public games which I have played a lot of they are extremly powerfull. I only see good Fades die if they underestimate the marines or are ambushed/ cut off when low on life.
Eh? NS1 fade was 4 swipes to kill A3 mf, you must be slipping in your old age. The fade did more damage per swipe in NS1 (80), with focus being almost 160 (rouuuunding ftw). You could make marines take 5 swipes if you got a medpack and had a3. It was also much easier to dodge swipes however, especially by crouching.
The lerk isn't nearly as overpowered as it was before, but I still absolutely despise spike lerk gameplay, so I wont comment on that.
Ah, my mistake.
One last point, NS2 fade MUST be weaker due to the alien economy (alien's having TRES)
I still say the shadow step fade was the best fade for NS2.
In my experience, its the players who haven't played NS1 that prefer shadow step over blink. I noticed many people who were able to fade at a competitive level in NS2 NOT be able to fade at a competitive level when blink became default.
Blink is very trackable, requiring thought pattern regarding how to engage, how to move during engagements and how to retreat compared to a instant untrackable 4 directional teleport that shadow step is. There was a reason blink was researched in combination with Shadow step; you would time their shotgun shots and push shadow step a moment before that timing, then blink into their face for slash. Rinse and repeat.
Also had extremely easy energy consumption compared to current fade.
All in all, I think people don't like the blink mechanic cause its harder.
that and it's slower. only way to get comparable speed now is go celerity. talking map navigation.
bunny hopping is such an overdone mechanic in games of the hardcore persuasion, ss fade had a unique mechanic where instead of bunny hopping you simply propelled yourself into a jump of epic proportions. Double jump was cool as hell too.
Not disagreeing that Shadow Step + double jump was fun, but... what do you mean with bunny hopping here? I've been quite vocal against bunny hop / bhop / pseudo-bhop before build 250, and I'm glad it *wasn't* included/implemented in the end. The only thing that remained of it is the "hold strafe when taking corners" thing, which is still unnecessary IMO, but far less annoying than what was originally planned.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I think Fades play much more defensive roles than they did in NS.
The Fade is most effective at duelling marines, making it the perfect unit for defending against solo harassment, as well as cutting off marine reinforcements. A Fade body-blocking a Phase Gate can often be the deciding factor on the success of an alien attack.
The presence of Fades make marines more weary of travelling alone. But large groups of marines can reduce the effectiveness of Fades, forcing Aliens to acquire more support units, especially Gorges for aggressive play.
Ultimately, Fades are the expensive "elite" units that are better than Skulks in most of their shared roles, but poor at destroying structures.
I still say the shadow step fade was the best fade for NS2.
In my experience, its the players who haven't played NS1 that prefer shadow step over blink. I noticed many people who were able to fade at a competitive level in NS2 NOT be able to fade at a competitive level when blink became default.
Blink is very trackable, requiring thought pattern regarding how to engage, how to move during engagements and how to retreat compared to a instant untrackable 4 directional teleport that shadow step is. There was a reason blink was researched in combination with Shadow step; you would time their shotgun shots and push shadow step a moment before that timing, then blink into their face for slash. Rinse and repeat.
Also had extremely easy energy consumption compared to current fade.
All in all, I think people don't like the blink mechanic cause its harder.
Thanks for that observation. I was not an ns1 player and loved the shadowstep fade. I like your analysis of shadowstep fade vs blink fade but disagree on the conclusion I don't dislike the new fade because it is harder, for I am not one to back away from a challenge. I was bad with shadowstep same as everyone at first. After 500 hours of gameplay I became pretty good at it, competitive level possibly. I played fade a lot because it was tons of fun, making me want to get better so I did. In b250 I played the new fade for a bit, wasn't great for obvious reasons, but I had no desire to get better as it was not fun. Now I play lerk a lot and am getting pretty good, although not competitive good yet, but its just not as fun as the old fade. Fun is very subjective, and I have no clear explanation as to why I enjoyed it so much but it certainly hit the spot for me.
There was something about mastering SS movement that felt awesome. Blink, not so much. Dashing around, above, etc your enemies repeatedly while hitting them was just incredible fun.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
My theory is that this was because of complementary mechanics.
Now, you simply tap a single key occasionally, instead of combos which led to increase in momentum.
I can see how (difficulties aside) pulling off combos would be more "fun" than mindlessly tapping a singular key.
Shadowstep is like the only reason to get the fade upgrade. The other ups are garbage. The old vortex was so much more interesting then the current one, and stab is just suicidal (even with vortex).
I don't see how blink is harder, shadowstep was added after blink and at some point was the only movement ability until blink was researched, and it is still the harder way to move around decently, but it's still pretty good. I've seen so many people simply fail with shadow step when it was introduced, in public and as well as in comepetive & gathers, so I'm pretty sure it's *NOT* easier to use then blink.
The cominbation of blink and shadowstep is what makes fade really powerful currently.
My theory is that this was because of complementary mechanics.
Now, you simply tap a single key occasionally, instead of combos which led to increase in momentum.
I can see how (difficulties aside) pulling off combos would be more "fun" than mindlessly tapping a singular key.
There is that. I would also throw in the immersion factor too. The old shadowstep felt, subjective, right.
My theory is that this was because of complementary mechanics.
Now, you simply tap a single key occasionally, instead of combos which led to increase in momentum.
I can see how (difficulties aside) pulling off combos would be more "fun" than mindlessly tapping a singular key.
There is that. I would also throw in the immersion factor too. The old shadowstep felt, subjective, right.
disagree on the conclusion I don't dislike the new fade because it is harder, for I am not one to back away from a challenge. I was bad with shadowstep same as everyone at first. After 500 hours of gameplay I became pretty good at it, competitive level possibly.
I personally found the old SS extremely easy to learn :S The fact you had to rush blink for fade to be useful at premier level was shit as well.
I don't see how blink is harder, shadowstep was added after blink and at some point was the only movement ability until blink was researched, and it is still the harder way to move around decently, but it's still pretty good. I've seen so many people simply fail with shadow step when it was introduced, in public and as well as in comepetive & gathers, so I'm pretty sure it's *NOT* easier to use then blink.
The combination of blink and shadowstep is what makes fade really powerful currently.
I will agree that SS is more mechanically difficult to use than blink - in the sense that it requires multiple key combinations to use.
crouch + jump + ss + double jump + air curve with mouse.
However, this really does not take long at all to learn. It's not difficult at all to a seasoned fps gamer who played any sort of movement/air control game.
Blink is much more difficult because you simply are more trackable. You have far more chance of taking a meat shot blinking into a marine than a SS swipe due to trackable movement vs instant teleport.
It's this simple critical difference that makes blink 1000x harder than SS against shotgun marines (premier level). These guys regulary land meat shots on pro fades, making the fade more trackable increases the chance of that occurring. This leads to the fade not so much becoming mechnical skill, as that also exists (energy management, movement skill & swipe aim) but more about decision making and choosing appropriate engagements.
Decision making involves being aware of possible marine positions on minimap for pinches, knowing how to engage premier level aim marines, knowing where to engage, timing engagements with fellow team mates and most importantly establishing a safe escape route & pattern.
All of this you HAVE to do on SS as well, but untrackable movement (SS) makes this much easier.
My theory is that this was because of complementary mechanics.
Now, you simply tap a single key occasionally, instead of combos which led to increase in momentum.
I can see how (difficulties aside) pulling off combos would be more "fun" than mindlessly tapping a singular key.
There is that. I would also throw in the immersion factor too. The old shadowstep felt, subjective, right.
ahh if only the fade could do ne of that... where's my onos smash for doors?!?!? :P stab could look so much cooler. the marines failed cuz they didn't pogostick. l2p trailer marines.. l2p...
disagree on the conclusion I don't dislike the new fade because it is harder, for I am not one to back away from a challenge. I was bad with shadowstep same as everyone at first. After 500 hours of gameplay I became pretty good at it, competitive level possibly.
I personally found the old SS extremely easy to learn :S The fact you had to rush blink for fade to be useful at premier level was shit as well.
That is simple to sum up. I admittedly am am a poor gamer. It takes me twice as long to attain skill, maybe ten times compared to you. It took me hundreds of hours to get any kind of skill in ns2. I also only pub. I have merced on occasion and was on a comp team in beta but it was not to my taste. I could pug if I really wanted to be better at this point but I don't have the desire. Beyond ns2, I am so terribly bad at every game. I think I have played 50 hours of chivalry and brand new people are often better than me. I don't love chivalry like I love ns2 and don't play as often or with such zeal.
My theory is that this was because of complementary mechanics.
Now, you simply tap a single key occasionally, instead of combos which led to increase in momentum.
I can see how (difficulties aside) pulling off combos would be more "fun" than mindlessly tapping a singular key.
There is that. I would also throw in the immersion factor too. The old shadowstep felt, subjective, right.
I remember that video. That little grapple between the fade and the marine hand to claw combat was so cool. That fade really should of died to that shotgun blast though... just saying. Silly TSF sending it salad marines.
Their third hive/one strike ability was tried out in beta but UWE decided not to put it in since it was a little op even though it meant the fade was vulnerable for 1 second. For some reason they decided to put it back in and to make it op since the fast can use it and get away safe.
Wait, the hive 3 ability gives fades a chance to escape more easily? On a lifeform that dies to 2 meatshots + a few pistol rounds, that seems only fair once aliens have teched up so much and hold that much of the map.
As you can see from mf's video, even very high level fades have to be ultra careful vs high level marines. The chances of getting tagged on your escape after only blinking near 2 Marines with shotguns is quite high.
The fade is definitely not op at the minute.
Their third hive/one strike ability was tried out in beta but UWE decided not to put it in since it was a little op even though it meant the fade was vulnerable for 1 second. For some reason they decided to put it back in and to make it op since the fast can use it and get away safe.
Why do you keep talking about the game as if aliens should just get three hives every time and will have those upgrades, every time. That's not how the game is designed. You are not meant to be allowed three hives, if you get a third you win.
My theory is that this was because of complementary mechanics.
Now, you simply tap a single key occasionally, instead of combos which led to increase in momentum.
I can see how (difficulties aside) pulling off combos would be more "fun" than mindlessly tapping a singular key.
There is that. I would also throw in the immersion factor too. The old shadowstep felt, subjective, right.
the first thing i thought of was... that fade is playing it all wrong. 2 lmg and 2 shotties to the chest... i wish i had that kind of durability.
Their third hive/one strike ability was tried out in beta but UWE decided not to put it in since it was a little op even though it meant the fade was vulnerable for 1 second. For some reason they decided to put it back in and to make it op since the fast can use it and get away safe.
stab was ever considered OP? a move that locks your momentum for a second? when 2 meatshot and change will put you down even with cara? the only feasible way to use it is with vortex to escape... and that means you're sacrificing damage for survivability. who the hell decided it was OP? was there a memo I missed where people actually figured out how to use it in a real game?
Like others have said... stab is really a terrible idea against good marines. Even with vortex, you are going to take a 220 damage shot to the face. Without vortex, you are probably dead. I was actually another fan of the old vortex v.2 (the long distance one you could throw).
Stab was OP when not a single person could hold more than 40 fps.
ehh.. it was also OP with the unintentional exploit of using SS at the same time so that you were not stationary + the dmg was high enough that it often killed a marine in one swipe, due to armor timings. Meaning good fades could just farm one hit kills mid game due to one unintentional mechanic.
Now it does 160 dmg which is exactly how much it takes to kill A0 Marines, so more than likely it would never be a one hit kill, and this nerf was offset with the use of instant teleporting vortex, guaranteeing escape. Its a compromise, and a notable difference, for sure.
Comments
Fade ATM is still fun, just not as fun, unique or interesting as it has been in the past.
Ah, my mistake.
One last point, NS2 fade MUST be weaker due to the alien economy (alien's having TRES)
In my experience, its the players who haven't played NS1 that prefer shadow step over blink. I noticed many people who were able to fade at a competitive level in NS2 NOT be able to fade at a competitive level when blink became default.
Blink is very trackable, requiring thought pattern regarding how to engage, how to move during engagements and how to retreat compared to a instant untrackable 4 directional teleport that shadow step is. There was a reason blink was researched in combination with Shadow step; you would time their shotgun shots and push shadow step a moment before that timing, then blink into their face for slash. Rinse and repeat.
Also had extremely easy energy consumption compared to current fade.
All in all, I think people don't like the blink mechanic cause its harder.
that and it's slower. only way to get comparable speed now is go celerity. talking map navigation.
The Fade is most effective at duelling marines, making it the perfect unit for defending against solo harassment, as well as cutting off marine reinforcements. A Fade body-blocking a Phase Gate can often be the deciding factor on the success of an alien attack.
The presence of Fades make marines more weary of travelling alone. But large groups of marines can reduce the effectiveness of Fades, forcing Aliens to acquire more support units, especially Gorges for aggressive play.
Ultimately, Fades are the expensive "elite" units that are better than Skulks in most of their shared roles, but poor at destroying structures.
blink allows awesome movement and is much more forgiving then shadowstep.
Shadowstep ctaches up with those pesky marines if blink got you in step range. Works fine.
only prob is shadowstep costs 35 res (!), and takes a while to get.
Now, you simply tap a single key occasionally, instead of combos which led to increase in momentum.
I can see how (difficulties aside) pulling off combos would be more "fun" than mindlessly tapping a singular key.
I don't see how blink is harder, shadowstep was added after blink and at some point was the only movement ability until blink was researched, and it is still the harder way to move around decently, but it's still pretty good. I've seen so many people simply fail with shadow step when it was introduced, in public and as well as in comepetive & gathers, so I'm pretty sure it's *NOT* easier to use then blink.
The cominbation of blink and shadowstep is what makes fade really powerful currently.
There is that. I would also throw in the immersion factor too. The old shadowstep felt, subjective, right.
I personally found the old SS extremely easy to learn :S The fact you had to rush blink for fade to be useful at premier level was shit as well.
@IronHorse @Omega_K2
I will agree that SS is more mechanically difficult to use than blink - in the sense that it requires multiple key combinations to use.
crouch + jump + ss + double jump + air curve with mouse.
However, this really does not take long at all to learn. It's not difficult at all to a seasoned fps gamer who played any sort of movement/air control game.
Blink is much more difficult because you simply are more trackable. You have far more chance of taking a meat shot blinking into a marine than a SS swipe due to trackable movement vs instant teleport.
It's this simple critical difference that makes blink 1000x harder than SS against shotgun marines (premier level). These guys regulary land meat shots on pro fades, making the fade more trackable increases the chance of that occurring. This leads to the fade not so much becoming mechnical skill, as that also exists (energy management, movement skill & swipe aim) but more about decision making and choosing appropriate engagements.
Decision making involves being aware of possible marine positions on minimap for pinches, knowing how to engage premier level aim marines, knowing where to engage, timing engagements with fellow team mates and most importantly establishing a safe escape route & pattern.
All of this you HAVE to do on SS as well, but untrackable movement (SS) makes this much easier.
ahh if only the fade could do ne of that... where's my onos smash for doors?!?!? :P stab could look so much cooler. the marines failed cuz they didn't pogostick. l2p trailer marines.. l2p...
I remember that video. That little grapple between the fade and the marine hand to claw combat was so cool. That fade really should of died to that shotgun blast though... just saying. Silly TSF sending it salad marines.
As you can see from mf's video, even very high level fades have to be ultra careful vs high level marines. The chances of getting tagged on your escape after only blinking near 2 Marines with shotguns is quite high.
The fade is definitely not op at the minute.
the first thing i thought of was... that fade is playing it all wrong. 2 lmg and 2 shotties to the chest... i wish i had that kind of durability.
stab was ever considered OP? a move that locks your momentum for a second? when 2 meatshot and change will put you down even with cara? the only feasible way to use it is with vortex to escape... and that means you're sacrificing damage for survivability. who the hell decided it was OP? was there a memo I missed where people actually figured out how to use it in a real game?
Stab was OP when not a single person could hold more than 40 fps.
Now it does 160 dmg which is exactly how much it takes to kill A0 Marines, so more than likely it would never be a one hit kill, and this nerf was offset with the use of instant teleporting vortex, guaranteeing escape. Its a compromise, and a notable difference, for sure.