Nice video, but... why do you keep standing on mines when you clear them? :-/ You'd take less damage if you just briefly touched them while going fast, if I'm not mistaken.
Was he near a gorge or some other healing thing at the time, because that would be why. No point using extra energy and moving away from the gorge when it can heal you up in max 1-2 more sprays anyway.
Was he near a gorge or some other healing thing at the time, because that would be why. No point using extra energy and moving away from the gorge when it can heal you up in max 1-2 more sprays anyway.
Nope, full health, cleared two mines, went back to hive to heal. Similar thing in another location.
Note that I don't wanna nitpick in-game decisions here... it just strikes me as an odd move from such an experienced player.
I miss the old shadowstep fade. The movement was really progressive to master, you steadily got better and better, and the whole aim->shadowstep/swipe was just a fun way to hit things.
Also I thought it was absolutely brilliant that you had to decide when to research blink based on how many fades/what kinda tactic you were going with. Sure it wasn't uber depth meta-game but not like khammin is anyway... Overall I found it good as a whole.
Now was it new player friendly? Uhhhhh........ All dose walkin fades, ugghhhh......
So you argue slashing twice before moving (when it takes 5 to down a lvl3 marine), you argue 1 marine with a shotgun is a severe threat (when a shotgun costs half as much R and can be reused), you argue for maneuverability when a lerk is at least as agile, and you admit fades are worthless against structures.
I'm waiting for a compelling argument for fade over lerk. Slightly more melee damage at the expense of lerk's immensely useful utility skills all wrapped up in 20 more R after upgrades.
So you argue slashing twice before moving (when it takes 5 to down a lvl3 marine), you argue 1 marine with a shotgun is a severe threat (when a shotgun costs half as much R and can be reused), you argue for maneuverability when a lerk is at least as agile, and you admit fades are worthless against structures.
I'm waiting for a compelling argument for fade over lerk. Slightly more melee damage at the expense of lerk's immensely useful utility skills all wrapped up in 20 more R after upgrades.
Well at least you *can* engage shotgun marines somewhat effectively. As a Lerk, going in for a bite is pretty much suicide if the shotgunner has decent aim. Spiking them down is an option, but takes so long that they can usually retreat or be medpacked. Spores can work as well, but you still have to get too close for comfort.
Bottom line: Fade has similar mobility as a Lerk, but more HP, so you can actually survive in close combat. I actually prefer Lerk in most situations, but still, Fades are useful in mid to late game.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
If you can master a fade, you can be much more deadly than a lerk, but if you are me, then you will never use a fade, lerk or onos, because it's a waste of res... haha
Early game:
Skulks are the grunts while lerks are the heavy hitters.
Midgame:
Skulks are still the grunts, lerks are support but still fairly dangerous, fades are the heavy hitters.
Late game:
Skulks are really weak and just bite res, lerks become glorified umbra dispensers. Fades become support and Onos are the heavy hitters.
Although the fade upgrade doesn't have as much as an impact on the game as say, umbra... shadow step is extremely powerful to a fade. It just isnt as high in the priority list as other upgrades and/or spamming more whips.
So you argue slashing twice before moving (when it takes 5 to down a lvl3 marine), you argue 1 marine with a shotgun is a severe threat (when a shotgun costs half as much R and can be reused), you argue for maneuverability when a lerk is at least as agile, and you admit fades are worthless against structures.
I'm waiting for a compelling argument for fade over lerk. Slightly more melee damage at the expense of lerk's immensely useful utility skills all wrapped up in 20 more R after upgrades.
1. You cannot compare PRES costs between aliens vs marines because marines typically hold 4-6 nodes through a game, an alien team will hold 2-3. Comparing 20 pres vs 40 pres does not work... Not to mention the hundred other reasons why comparing PRES values between the teams is retarded
2. It's 4 swipes against a un-medded l3 armour marine in NS2 compared to 5 swipes in NS1. So NS2 fade is stronger in that regard
3. You're looking at the game from a 1v1 perspective, Aliens have many tools used to chip marine Armour reducing marines to 2-3 swipes (other players, parasite, bile bomb, whips, lerk spikes)
4. Fades are worthless against structures because of the TRES/PRES component in NS2 compared to NS1. It was forced for fade to have a massive downside due to fade ball (5 players going fade in competitive matches)
There are a few players in NS2 which go 50-5 in top top top level competitive games; check out Valk from Godar. The fade is an amazing beast.
For someone that played NS1, you should notice that the NS2 fade is in fact slightly stronger in terms of hit-to-kill, with less hp (which can be buffed my mucous mid combat).
They are extremely similar, so I have no idea what your talking about when you say 'i played NS1. I remember.'
I'll pose a question to you:
When you review your own fade play, do you honestly believe that you have no further to learn or improve on?
- 100% swipe accuracy
- Counting swipes and noticing medpack drops mid-engagement
- Entering engagements with 75% + energy
- Leaving engagements with 15% + energy
- Mid-combat movement
- Exit routes
- Aware of marines attempting to pinch; analyzing mini map before engagements / being aware of where marines are that could potentially pinch
- Trans-versing the map in the most energy efficient manner
- Choosing engagements that have a meaningful impact on the game and not stat-padding your KD
- Aware of where solo recappers are
Alot of this is just apart of being a good alien player, but its especially hard on fade because players enter 'tunnel vision' and are so focused on movement / engagements they do not focus on the other parts which are just as important.
I also assume you only play public games, even the most ordinary level competitive fade can go 50-1 in a public game. I assume this is not you?
Excellent posts by It's Super Effective and male_fatalities here. I'll just chime in to say that even though the shadowstep momentum nerf broke my achey-fadey heart, the Fade is still the single most game-changing tech in NS2. If you think fades suck, come join us on the pickup game server and watch the good fades slaughter everything they behold.
Where were all you old shadow step loving people when there were threads about the new fade. I felt so alone thinking I was the only one who liked the old fade better.
Where were all you old shadow step loving people when there were threads about the new fade. I felt so alone thinking I was the only one who liked the old fade better.
Heh, I think pretty much everybody likes the old fade better. Everyone except any marine playing against them . I was a decent fade before, but I know I suck now. Would rather drop 25 on lerk nowadays.
Where were all you old shadow step loving people when there were threads about the new fade. I felt so alone thinking I was the only one who liked the old fade better.
hate to break it to you buddy, but you must not have been reading very carefully. if you were talking about the blink switch, nobody really liked it. we just had morestuff to complain about. like AV, mouse input lag, alien economy restructuring again, whip/skulk upgrades, comm res, drifter cost... unless I've got my timing confused.
Anyways, they aren't totally worthless. Just when compared to other lifeforms right now, fades tend to be the least useful in most situations. Right now, lerks are where it's at due to their over-buffed combat prowess. How I think lerks should be balanced? Nerf their bite speed, lower their hp, but make it so that they are considerably harder to hit at a distance but close up it's easier. (perhaps can be done by shrinking hit box)
Also, maybe buff support abilities a bit.
Getting back to the fade, right now they are still good at killing marines that come thru phase but honestly fades are not very useful right now. (compared to other lifeforms)
EDIT: You know that lerk is OP for those of you who saw me kill whole marine team over and over again. Exo's were much easier targets than good jetpack marine with a shotgun.
@male_fatalties gotta disagree with that as aliens do tend to hold more than 2-3 rt's. Also, you can't say NS2 fade is stronger since the mechanics in NS2 are very different to NS1.
@male_fatalties gotta disagree with that as aliens do tend to hold more than 2-3 rt's. Also, you can't say NS2 fade is stronger since the mechanics in NS2 are very different to NS1.
This is one of the problems with ns2. There is much too huge a divide between varying strat effectiveness's from comp to pub due to unnecessarily cheap alien harvesters.
It's harder to spam them in top level because the equilibrium is controlled via marines that can actually aim and pressure, which is why you do indeed get 2-3 harvesters at the level mf is talking about. 5 harvesters is pretty much a sign of gg for marine.
In pub the bottleneck is not marine aim and pressure, but cost and spammability, which is where your experiences are coming from.
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As for fade, it only really needs 80/81 damage for 3 swipe a1 i think.
@male_fatalties gotta disagree with that as aliens do tend to hold more than 2-3 rt's. Also, you can't say NS2 fade is stronger since the mechanics in NS2 are very different to NS1.
This is one of the problems with ns2. There is much too huge a divide between varying strat effectiveness's from comp to pub due to unnecessarily cheap alien harvesters.
It's harder to spam them in top level because the equilibrium is controlled via marines that can actually aim and pressure, which is why you do indeed get 2-3 harvesters at the level mf is talking about. 5 harvesters is pretty much a sign of gg for marine.
In pub the bottleneck is not marine aim and pressure, but cost and spammability, which is where your experiences are coming from.
I'm not convinced that this is inherent outcome of design in large games, rather, the problem probably lies behind the keyboard. throw some properly experienced marines at some properly experienced aliens, and tower count will still remain 3 safe harvesters for aliens.
Anyways, they aren't totally worthless. Just when compared to other lifeforms right now, fades tend to be the least useful in most situations. Right now, lerks are where it's at due to their over-buffed combat prowess. How I think lerks should be balanced? Nerf their bite speed, lower their hp, but make it so that they are considerably harder to hit at a distance but close up it's easier. (perhaps can be done by shrinking hit box)
Also, maybe buff support abilities a bit.
Getting back to the fade, right now they are still good at killing marines that come thru phase but honestly fades are not very useful right now. (compared to other lifeforms)
EDIT: You know that lerk is OP for those of you who saw me kill whole marine team over and over again. Exo's were much easier targets than good jetpack marine with a shotgun.
@male_fatalties gotta disagree with that as aliens do tend to hold more than 2-3 rt's. Also, you can't say NS2 fade is stronger since the mechanics in NS2 are very different to NS1.
This is one of the problems with ns2. There is much too huge a divide between varying strat effectiveness's from comp to pub due to unnecessarily cheap alien harvesters.
It's harder to spam them in top level because the equilibrium is controlled via marines that can actually aim and pressure, which is why you do indeed get 2-3 harvesters at the level mf is talking about. 5 harvesters is pretty much a sign of gg for marine.
In pub the bottleneck is not marine aim and pressure, but cost and spammability, which is where your experiences are coming from.
I'm not convinced that this is inherent outcome of design in large games, rather, the problem probably lies behind the keyboard. throw some properly experienced marines at some properly experienced aliens, and tower count will still remain 3 safe harvesters for aliens.
That was kinda my point? The higher the skill in equal games, the lower the 'safe' harvester count becomes. This usually bottoms out at 2-3 because at that point you have tres to whip spam. Simply put, the res control advantage increases for aliens as skill decreases, and that has implications for wider fade balance with regard to pres income.
@male_fatalties gotta disagree with that as aliens do tend to hold more than 2-3 rt's. Also, you can't say NS2 fade is stronger since the mechanics in NS2 are very different to NS1.
As elodea explained, my comments are purely based on competitive matches. If aliens are holding more than 3 RT's, its generally because marines have been dominated early game / no pressure. This occurs many times in public games, but who cares about public games lol. Anything goes in pub
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Can we get more non spectating first person quality vids of comp players? (as in a demo or stream instead of ns2's spectator system)
Really entertaining to watch that stuff..
There's one video of vortex being used to an impressive degree, but the video quality is crap.
As far as I'm aware, the only FPVODs of players are myself & eissfelt.
I have a youtube account and eissfelt uses twitch.tv
Eiss twitch stream from the Godar v Asc game at the weekend was so awesome to watch, has TS sound on aswell which was really interesting to hear. Definitely worth checking out for some top quality first person footage.
Eh? NS1 fade was 4 swipes to kill A3 mf, you must be slipping in your old age. The fade did more damage per swipe in NS1 (80), with focus being almost 160 (rouuuunding ftw). You could make marines take 5 swipes if you got a medpack and had a3. It was also much easier to dodge swipes however, especially by crouching.
The lerk isn't nearly as overpowered as it was before, but I still absolutely despise spike lerk gameplay, so I wont comment on that.
I am a comp level fade, please watch this video. Fades are amazing in the right hands...
Skip to 10:55, thats when I start fade egg
My largest piece of advice? Do whatever is necessary to get a free swipe without taking damage, this includes ambushing, waiting for reload / welding and blinking in from behind. A single shotgun marine with medpack support can solo even the best fade, not over committing (1 swipe is the general rule, 2 is the MAX).
i had no idea mf stood for male fatalities........ the more you know
Comments
Nope, full health, cleared two mines, went back to hive to heal. Similar thing in another location.
Note that I don't wanna nitpick in-game decisions here... it just strikes me as an odd move from such an experienced player.
Also I thought it was absolutely brilliant that you had to decide when to research blink based on how many fades/what kinda tactic you were going with. Sure it wasn't uber depth meta-game but not like khammin is anyway... Overall I found it good as a whole.
Now was it new player friendly? Uhhhhh........ All dose walkin fades, ugghhhh......
*shrugs*
I'm waiting for a compelling argument for fade over lerk. Slightly more melee damage at the expense of lerk's immensely useful utility skills all wrapped up in 20 more R after upgrades.
Bottom line: Fade has similar mobility as a Lerk, but more HP, so you can actually survive in close combat. I actually prefer Lerk in most situations, but still, Fades are useful in mid to late game.
Skulks are the grunts while lerks are the heavy hitters.
Midgame:
Skulks are still the grunts, lerks are support but still fairly dangerous, fades are the heavy hitters.
Late game:
Skulks are really weak and just bite res, lerks become glorified umbra dispensers. Fades become support and Onos are the heavy hitters.
Every lifeform has its place.
1. You cannot compare PRES costs between aliens vs marines because marines typically hold 4-6 nodes through a game, an alien team will hold 2-3. Comparing 20 pres vs 40 pres does not work... Not to mention the hundred other reasons why comparing PRES values between the teams is retarded
2. It's 4 swipes against a un-medded l3 armour marine in NS2 compared to 5 swipes in NS1. So NS2 fade is stronger in that regard
3. You're looking at the game from a 1v1 perspective, Aliens have many tools used to chip marine Armour reducing marines to 2-3 swipes (other players, parasite, bile bomb, whips, lerk spikes)
4. Fades are worthless against structures because of the TRES/PRES component in NS2 compared to NS1. It was forced for fade to have a massive downside due to fade ball (5 players going fade in competitive matches)
There are a few players in NS2 which go 50-5 in top top top level competitive games; check out Valk from Godar. The fade is an amazing beast.
For someone that played NS1, you should notice that the NS2 fade is in fact slightly stronger in terms of hit-to-kill, with less hp (which can be buffed my mucous mid combat).
They are extremely similar, so I have no idea what your talking about when you say 'i played NS1. I remember.'
I'll pose a question to you:
When you review your own fade play, do you honestly believe that you have no further to learn or improve on?
- 100% swipe accuracy
- Counting swipes and noticing medpack drops mid-engagement
- Entering engagements with 75% + energy
- Leaving engagements with 15% + energy
- Mid-combat movement
- Exit routes
- Aware of marines attempting to pinch; analyzing mini map before engagements / being aware of where marines are that could potentially pinch
- Trans-versing the map in the most energy efficient manner
- Choosing engagements that have a meaningful impact on the game and not stat-padding your KD
- Aware of where solo recappers are
Alot of this is just apart of being a good alien player, but its especially hard on fade because players enter 'tunnel vision' and are so focused on movement / engagements they do not focus on the other parts which are just as important.
I also assume you only play public games, even the most ordinary level competitive fade can go 50-1 in a public game. I assume this is not you?
Heh, I think pretty much everybody likes the old fade better. Everyone except any marine playing against them
hate to break it to you buddy, but you must not have been reading very carefully. if you were talking about the blink switch, nobody really liked it. we just had morestuff to complain about. like AV, mouse input lag, alien economy restructuring again, whip/skulk upgrades, comm res, drifter cost... unless I've got my timing confused.
Anyways, they aren't totally worthless. Just when compared to other lifeforms right now, fades tend to be the least useful in most situations. Right now, lerks are where it's at due to their over-buffed combat prowess. How I think lerks should be balanced? Nerf their bite speed, lower their hp, but make it so that they are considerably harder to hit at a distance but close up it's easier. (perhaps can be done by shrinking hit box)
Also, maybe buff support abilities a bit.
Getting back to the fade, right now they are still good at killing marines that come thru phase but honestly fades are not very useful right now. (compared to other lifeforms)
EDIT: You know that lerk is OP for those of you who saw me kill whole marine team over and over again. Exo's were much easier targets than good jetpack marine with a shotgun.
It's harder to spam them in top level because the equilibrium is controlled via marines that can actually aim and pressure, which is why you do indeed get 2-3 harvesters at the level mf is talking about. 5 harvesters is pretty much a sign of gg for marine.
In pub the bottleneck is not marine aim and pressure, but cost and spammability, which is where your experiences are coming from.
-
As for fade, it only really needs 80/81 damage for 3 swipe a1 i think.
I'm not convinced that this is inherent outcome of design in large games, rather, the problem probably lies behind the keyboard. throw some properly experienced marines at some properly experienced aliens, and tower count will still remain 3 safe harvesters for aliens.
lerks with less health... no.
As elodea explained, my comments are purely based on competitive matches. If aliens are holding more than 3 RT's, its generally because marines have been dominated early game / no pressure. This occurs many times in public games, but who cares about public games lol. Anything goes in pub
Really entertaining to watch that stuff..
There's one video of vortex being used to an impressive degree, but the video quality is crap.
I have a youtube account and eissfelt uses twitch.tv
Eiss twitch stream from the Godar v Asc game at the weekend was so awesome to watch, has TS sound on aswell which was really interesting to hear. Definitely worth checking out for some top quality first person footage.
The lerk isn't nearly as overpowered as it was before, but I still absolutely despise spike lerk gameplay, so I wont comment on that.
i had no idea mf stood for male fatalities........ the more you know