Amusement park sounds bit silly Maby just do a tropical island like lost, but half infested from kharaa crashed or evolved there. Think waterfalls like in CAVE but no roof, only 3 moons and open sky
No roof? Outdoor maps don't really work in ns2... I mean yea there's those few parts of docking where you can do outside, but it relies on invisible walls, and I'm just not a fan of those.
Again, the amusement part was just a potential idea. We haven't settled on ANY theme yet, and have yet to decide a layout -- that's all still up in the air. I'm starting to get pretty frustrated here, because I'm hearing a lot of suggestions, but not a lot of people actually stepping forward to help out! Unless more mappers step forward soon, this map isn't going to happen.
you have a point with the outside, jetpacks has limits but lerks dont, maby do a mod that goes with the new map that have 5-10 second ticker so if you dont head back or turn around in time its same as a death barrier and you will die. I personally think its the few maps is not enough if you spend countless hours per day playing the #1 game of choice: ns2
100% of the maps are on marine territory... marine facility, marine labs, marine spaceships even. i dont want marine home turf every single time i want something that can explain how aliens came into the picture like a crashed biological ship with aliens or spreading infestation on the planet after impact, hell even if the MARINES finally crashed one of their ships on a alien planet, think descent looking parts scattered around forming pathways in between lava or erupting volcanos, some infestation maby even use of dense forest or bamboo depending on direction you want to go. we have so many cool races to pick from but they neglect the entire race of kharaa because technological metal panels & unorganic stuff looks cooler and futuristic.
propably easier to do straight lines with the spark engine than random terrain but thats where the props comes in, if we can create some craters and you can rotate and resize it so it never looks the same, there is endless possibilitys for alien environment or atleast semi alien map with more than 0.5 rooms out of 20 infested at the beginning.
Quick google search for alien environment, slapped in some RT nozzle from ingame and i can really imagine maby it once was marines there trying to extract resources needed for the wreck. In this case i draw some cables but on other places there could be metal panels in ground exposed around the nozzle.
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Hoooo that is a TON of custom props for that... Is there a backstory to ns2 at all that I should adhere to?
The problem with outdoor environments isn't the players leaving the map, it's the players potentially leaving the map, and re-entering somewhere they shouldn't have been able to get to. Even with the feature you suggest, there's still the possibility of a Lerk going very high over a wall or something, and coming back down on the other side. Not to mention, being outdoors, it makes it difficult to design the level so there are set paths to connect rooms. If there's a forest, for example, how do you give this forest boundaries? How do you keep the players from just slipping in and out of the trees, going as they please? That'd be like walking through the walls in any other map.
Also, all the other maps haven't really been set on the Marine's "home turf" they've been in neutral, non-military areas, like a tram station, an ore refinery, and whatever the hell Summit is supposed to be. Really, the only way to do a "Kharaa homeplanet" level is to either have and outdoor area with invisible or contrived walls (ie a giant glass dome over the area for some reason!), or have it all take place in a cave system of some sort.
Now you want something different? I propose an abandoned futuristic amusement park. It wouldn't have to be silly, it could be a dark and scary place. Or, (and I don't remember if I've mentioned this here on the forums in this thread, or if it was just in a conversation with Iron Souls) but it could also be half amusement-park, half resort hotel FOR the amusement park.
i did not mean to build every prop in the image its just an example on how the setting could be. but if the paths are between slopes or canyons, instead of narrow hallways the open kharaa map would have organic walls of the areas with rock formations or threes functioning as walls to connect the bigger rooms
maby cover the swamp with a giant slimy dome like here so you cannot fly out of map. it could be animated to move in and out slowly like its alive or breathing with the organisms inside of it, then tunnels can connect the areas leading from the center.
I'm still on vacation and writing this on my phone. I already have stuff planned, but I think I'd like to be a part of this
I have a pretty awesome map idea, I planned to be my next big 1 year + solo project with custom assets. This was a pain to write so I'll elaborate the 4th, but would give you the pre work if you like it and we decide on it. I feel so limited for words, damn phone
I'm still on vacation and writing this on my phone. I already have stuff planned, but I think I'd like to be a part of this
I have a pretty awesome map idea, I planned to be my next big 1 year + solo project with custom assets. This was a pain to write so I'll elaborate the 4th, but would give you the pre work if you like it and we decide on it. I feel so limited for words, damn phone
Awesome! Glad to have you aboard Vert^.
@RadimaX I still feel like it might not be the best idea for ns2 Hey! You know... that sounds like it would make a great combat map though!
When it comes to organic/outdoor environments it simply the Wrong engine and the wrong game. Nothing good will come of pursuing a 'cool idea' like this. Sorry to be blunt but its the truth.
Focus less on theme and awesome ideas more on layouts and gameplay. Its also worth noting scary or dark maps don't enhance game-play in anyway, in fact they hinder it.
There's nothing wrong with playing it safe. The objective is to make a fun map for NS2... layout and design should be at the forefront of minds at this point. Coming up with grand ideas that take the map away from the proven formula of a corridor shooter style maps literally have no appeal for any experience mappers which know enough to avoid overly ambitious or miss-guided projects. I think talking about, and showing off ideas for layouts (not themes) a much more appealing starting point.
Amusement park sounds bit silly Maby just do a tropical island like lost, but half infested from kharaa crashed or evolved there. Think waterfalls like in CAVE but no roof, only 3 moons and open sky
No roof? Outdoor maps don't really work in ns2... I mean yea there's those few parts of docking where you can do outside, but it relies on invisible walls, and I'm just not a fan of those.
Again, the amusement part was just a potential idea. We haven't settled on ANY theme yet, and have yet to decide a layout -- that's all still up in the air. I'm starting to get pretty frustrated here, because I'm hearing a lot of suggestions, but not a lot of people actually stepping forward to help out! Unless more mappers step forward soon, this map isn't going to happen.
The problem is all experienced NS2 mappers are either removed from community or are committed to their own projects. If you want to recruit talent you'll have to draw peoples attention and sell the idea of the map to potential helpers. I suggest building a grey box map that's fun and use that as a leverage when recruiting people to help dress the map. This might sound a bit harsh but its hard for people to commit to a project that just consists of a few ideas and thin air. You either need a extensively proven track record or have a made a solid start if anyone worth while is going to commit 100's of hours of their spare time to help make this happen.
I'd also recommend you put yourself forward as a project lead and chief designer, and focus ALL your mapping time on making this happen. That means one project!
I really want to see this happen but speaking from my experience of working on mods you need to start it the right way, recruit the right talent for the right jobs and you need strong leadership to realize the project. If you start to build a solid foundation for a good project, the right way, the right people will want to get involved. So don't get frustrated. Get started.
When it comes to organic/outdoor environments it simply the Wrong engine and the wrong game. Nothing good will come of pursuing a 'cool idea' like this. Sorry to be blunt but its the truth.
Focus less on theme and awesome ideas more on layouts and gameplay. Its also worth noting scary or dark maps don't enhance game-play in anyway, in fact they hinder it.
There's nothing wrong with playing it safe. The objective is to make a fun map for NS2... layout and design should be at the forefront of minds at this point. Coming up with grand ideas that take the map away from the proven formula of a corridor shooter style maps literally have no appeal for any experience mappers which know enough to avoid overly ambitious or miss-guided projects. I think talking about, and showing off ideas for layouts (not themes) a much more appealing starting point.
Amusement park sounds bit silly Maby just do a tropical island like lost, but half infested from kharaa crashed or evolved there. Think waterfalls like in CAVE but no roof, only 3 moons and open sky
No roof? Outdoor maps don't really work in ns2... I mean yea there's those few parts of docking where you can do outside, but it relies on invisible walls, and I'm just not a fan of those.
Again, the amusement part was just a potential idea. We haven't settled on ANY theme yet, and have yet to decide a layout -- that's all still up in the air. I'm starting to get pretty frustrated here, because I'm hearing a lot of suggestions, but not a lot of people actually stepping forward to help out! Unless more mappers step forward soon, this map isn't going to happen.
The problem is all experienced NS2 mappers are either removed from community or are committed to their own projects. If you want to recruit talent you'll have to draw peoples attention and sell the idea of the map to potential helpers. I suggest building a grey box map that's fun and use that as a leverage when recruiting people to help dress the map. This might sound a bit harsh but its hard for people to commit to a project that just consists of a few ideas and thin air. You either need a extensively proven track record or have a made a solid start if anyone worth while is going to commit 100's of hours of their spare time to help make this happen.
I'd also recommend you put yourself forward as a project lead and chief designer, and focus ALL your mapping time on making this happen. That means one project!
I really want to see this happen but speaking from my experience of working on mods you need to start it the right way, recruit the right talent for the right jobs and you need strong leadership to realize the project. If you start to build a solid foundation for a good project, the right way, the right people will want to get involved. So don't get frustrated. Get started.
Yes, outdoor is... not for this game. Also, when I said "dark and scary" I meant theme, not lighting.
I'm already the project lead, and I'll gladly be lead designer, though I'd rather reserve that for someone better qualified if such a person comes along at some point.
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edited December 2013
Okay, so... layout time. Got one proposal here for now, more to follow if needed:
5 tech points, 11 rts (mineshaft has 11, don't shoot me!) A huge double area in the middle, not unlike central drilling (similar in that it's technically one room, but it's huge, and both rt's are separated by quite a distance.)
More like it! Have you thought about just targeting higher player count pub games? It'll give you a lot more freedom to just have fun with design. Comp players are much fussier and pubs really do seem to enjoy high player count servers.
Mine shaft is a great pubber map after all!
Here's another to get the ball rolling, a veil-ish layout:
Possibly comp viable, though the neutral Tech points would have to be designed for heavy combat but also viable choking and staging attacks.
More like it! Have you thought about just targeting higher player count pub games? It'll give you a lot more freedom to just have fun with design. Comp players are much fussier and pubs really do seem to enjoy high player count servers.
Mine shaft is a great pubber map after all!
Here's another to get the ball rolling, a veil-ish layout:
Possibly comp viable, though the neutral Tech points would have to be designed for heavy combat but also viable choking and staging attacks.
I have, briefly. Just earlier today I was playing on that 40 player server... FUN fun times... but I'm still unsure as to how a map tailored for higher player counts would be different. Does that translate to more tech points, res nodes, fewer, or more routes, fewer? I just don't know . It seems to me that with higher player counts, there need to be more side passages to deal with the marine-blob war machines that tend to form (a huge clump of marines starts to steam roll through one passage in the map. Yea, it's up to aliens to flank them and use teamwork... but I'm wondering if there is anything the mapmaker can do to assuage this as rookies and newbies tend to just run head-on at the enemy without trying to... you know think or anything. )
I like this layout too! Did you make this one up just for me? :-*
What do you mean by circular? Round shape of entire map shape, or just TP's on the outside?
The problem with non circular maps is that they're pretty much all too big ie, you have two tech points in opposite corners, it's hard to attack one from the other, you have to trudge all the way across the map; it limits the strategic options. I love Mineshaft, but it's a little bit iffy in this area. ie Cave is way the hell away from Ops (not to mention being super easy to seige). Maps tend to be rounder because you should always have your tech points on the outside. Otherwise, any RT's you have on the outside force you to backtrack no matter where you are on the map, which becomes a big problem if your map is on the large side to begin with... if that makes sense... RT's should always be on the way to another important part of the map.
EDIT: Okay I should clarify, not all tps need to be on the outside, but SOME should. (I'm gonna throw out... 3+... right?)
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edited December 2013
Just throwing this one out there as well.
It's different than the typical tp-rt-tp chain.
EDIT: Hell I don't even know if I came up with this or not... I just started drawing it out, but now that it's finished it looks very familiar... huh... well sorry if I accidentally plagiarized your layout... whoever you are... maybe...
well i meant like larger as in 9 v 9.... 20 v 20 is server crashing, game breaking madness!
Yeah its just for you beige! While I can't help you guys out as I'm already committed to two projects and have no time for another; I can help you refine your ideas.... maybe...
There's never any real level-design talk on these forums so anything to get some started. A few points I have noticed about ns2 design with some relevance to your original image:
Since the large balance changes giving aliens a free/easy TP is going to give them a massive advantage, counterbalance it by giving the marines easier res access or just avoid it all together. The close proximity tech points are going to be a nightmare to balance.
Play it safe! I see you like trying to come up with something completely new. While I admire that NS2's game design is hugely restrictive on the map layouts. there's nothing wrong with the traditional wagon wheel. Room design has a huge impact on how a map plays so don't focus on coming up with something too different layout wise it'll still be unique if you followed the tried and tested summit style layout.
Double res nodes are usually best avoided as it will create an orgy of destruction but its usually short-lived as the holding teams res snowballs for little investment in holding it. Veils a very clever map by a very clever designer, i haven't seen anyone else pull it off.
One thing I've found useful is not trying to think about the map as RTs/TPs but points of value, chokes and staging grounds. The traditional layout diagrams focus entirely on the placement of RT's,TPS and their connections. This is a seriously over-simplified way of looking at maps and obviously people just use them as a rough guide but its still important to think about how teams attack and defend these 'positions of value'. With fracture I tried to make a much more organic flowing map where you could stage bases or set checkpoints throughout the map. The idea was to make the map more varied in terms of tactics used and ultimately feel less contrived. It simply leads to messy play where gorges become undervalued and the focus moves more to combat rather than tactical base building which is so important for this game. I haven't really developed a way of putting this in a diagram but i had a crack:
or on summit:
chokes are much more important for aliens and should be between 128 and 160 units wide. Space either side for building and a restricted angle of view for marines will increase their effectiveness. Marines rely more on spacing and positioning so creating space for them is also and important aspect of effective staging grounds (not just building structures).
(I found all of these maps by searching deep into the mapping forums and I haven't updated my searches recently so I don't know if some of these are active now?)
If you have a crew going, maybe some of these already existing maps could be finished with your help. Such a shame to see all the work go to waste.
Howser, you're one of the smartest map makers around for the spark engine and I treasure every word you share on the subject. I do however have small issues with your viewpoints sometimes.
You once told me That detailing a map added nothing in terms of gameplay, and fine tuning the box was where it's at. I believe it's the truth, but I have to keep reminding you That we are not UWE devs and we create stuff to realise ideas not done with an official stamp.
I know your sharing the un said thruths for our benefit. I do however feel like a community projects lend themselves more to wacky dev. rather than strict dev with the official / comp scene in mind.
I felt a little sad reading your reply telling beige to stay away from awesome unique ideas, it should IMO be just about that.
well i meant like larger as in 9 v 9.... 20 v 20 is server crashing, game breaking madness!
Yeah its just for you beige! While I can't help you guys out as I'm already committed to two projects and have no time for another; I can help you refine your ideas.... maybe...
There's never any real level-design talk on these forums so anything to get some started. A few points I have noticed about ns2 design with some relevance to your original image:
Since the large balance changes giving aliens a free/easy TP is going to give them a massive advantage, counterbalance it by giving the marines easier res access or just avoid it all together. The close proximity tech points are going to be a nightmare to balance.
Play it safe! I see you like trying to come up with something completely new. While I admire that NS2's game design is hugely restrictive on the map layouts. there's nothing wrong with the traditional wagon wheel. Room design has a huge impact on how a map plays so don't focus on coming up with something too different layout wise it'll still be unique if you followed the tried and tested summit style layout.
Double res nodes are usually best avoided as it will create an orgy of destruction but its usually short-lived as the holding teams res snowballs for little investment in holding it. Veils a very clever map by a very clever designer, i haven't seen anyone else pull it off.
One thing I've found useful is not trying to think about the map as RTs/TPs but points of value, chokes and staging grounds. The traditional layout diagrams focus entirely on the placement of RT's,TPS and their connections. This is a seriously over-simplified way of looking at maps and obviously people just use them as a rough guide but its still important to think about how teams attack and defend these 'positions of value'. With fracture I tried to make a much more organic flowing map where you could stage bases or set checkpoints throughout the map. The idea was to make the map more varied in terms of tactics used and ultimately feel less contrived. It simply leads to messy play where gorges become undervalued and the focus moves more to combat rather than tactical base building which is so important for this game. I haven't really developed a way of putting this in a diagram but i had a crack:
or on summit:
chokes are much more important for aliens and should be between 128 and 160 units wide. Space either side for building and a restricted angle of view for marines will increase their effectiveness. Marines rely more on spacing and positioning so creating space for them is also and important aspect of effective staging grounds (not just building structures).
Your layout also provides the alien players with an adjacent TP, I don't understand the difference.
Howser, you're one of the smartest map makers around for the spark engine and I treasure every word you share on the subject. I do however have small issues with your viewpoints sometimes.
You once told me That detailing a map added nothing in terms of gameplay, and fine tuning the box was where it's at. I believe it's the truth, but I have to keep reminding you That we are not UWE devs and we create stuff to realise ideas not done with an official stamp.
I know your sharing the un said thruths for our benefit. I do however feel like a community projects lend themselves more to wacky dev. rather than strict dev with the official / comp scene in mind.
I felt a little sad reading your reply telling beige to stay away from awesome unique ideas, it should IMO be just about that.
@Vert^ The cool ideas come after you have something fun, with a little imagination and creativity you can turn any layout into any setting. When the setting defines the gameplay from the outset you're gonna have issues. NS2 is the hardest game to map for, if you want make cool ideas there is easier games and better engines to work with. I'm not saying don't make something cool like a theme park map, I'm saying put gameplay in first then fit a Ferris wheel in it. And it obviously comes down to the authors preference. Personally I want to try something that appeals to the existing NS2 players, you start going too wacky and you risk making a niche map for a game with a fairly small audience.
@BeigeAlert Marines naturally flow into the two neutral Tech points and they have have outer staging grounds and flanking routes to make them hard for aliens to establish them as a base. There's no perfect layout but i do think TP/TP can work, its just all about the distances in both instances.
I think the only thing that set me off with your philosophy, regarding map creating, is how right you are
I don't mean anything disrespecting against you, but I'd personally put fun and creative freedom above worrying about balance. In other words, I wouldn't mind doing a niche map for an unpopulated game, if what I wanted to make, was indeed the end product. As said earlier we're not devs
I think the only thing that set me off with your philosophy, regarding map creating, is how right you are
I don't mean anything disrespecting against you, but I'd personally put fun and creative freedom above worrying about balance. In other words, I wouldn't mind doing a niche map for an unpopulated game, if what I wanted to make, was indeed the end product. As said earlier we're not devs
Happy new year mate
On the other hand though... I want people to actually play this map when we're done. They'll only play it if it's balanced. Pretty scenery will only do it for so long.
Which makes Howsers advice really good for this project since balance is a design goal. I was just venting that there is other goals that should also be treasured for other people, namely the ones mapping the project Howser is just quick to take the professional approach, Which I don't mean in a negative way.
Which makes Howsers advice really good for this project since balance is a design goal. I was just venting that there is other goals that should also be treasured for other people, namely the ones mapping the project Howser is just quick to take the professional approach, Which I don't mean in a negative way.
Yea, I'm just saying that we should make balance our highest priority, because if it looks pretty but doesn't play well, few people will play it, and all our hard work will have been for naught.
EDIT: Come to think of it, I think we're both saying that, so I'm not really sure what I'm arguing about... /:)
But what is balance? Is it teams winning 50/50? Is it individual encounters? Is it both? Does balancing individual encounters lead to teams winning 50/50? Are we so sure about that?
I guess we'll just have to ... weigh things up.
A couple of thoughts about NS2 maps in general. I've mainly(only mostly, I think I played on jambi once) played on official maps. And no other games has really had me think "These are just rooms for us to run around in" immersion breaking suspension of disbelief shattering thoughts. I don't know for sure whether it's the gameplay of NS2 itself or how the levels are all so similar in shape and structure but they(official maps at least as that's all I've played) really do feel like nothing more than boxes joined by smaller boxes.
One of my main goals with mapping for NS2 (I haven't done any yet, but that's why it's a goal and not an achievement yet) is to create a level that makes people believe they're in that area doing that thing they're doing and not simply playing a game in a box connected by smaller tunnel boxes.
I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with those statements but that doesn't matter, thats how I personally feel. When I will be building maps, I will be making them to solve the problems I see.
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@ironsoul its overall map balance that counts the map needs to average 50 / 50 *without either team rushing or having to pull of 1 specific tactic*
For any custom map you need to do the following
- make it fun to play
- the map must offer somthing different to what is already out there
- it must play well / no exploits etc
- it must be optimised, you must design you level to play on the crappiest pc out there (I am desgigning mine to average out at 40 fps on my pc on max settings, 4year old pc here !)
- you must stick to a general theme and not use everysingle art asset or texture out there
- avoid long corridors
- aim to keep drawcalls under 1800 (you can go to around 2k and it still be acceptable)
- use shadow lights sparingly
- try to give the player a sense of always moving forward in your map, try to avoid to many backwards routes
thats all I can think of atm !
With the cityscape buildings ecpilse has brought to the map it would be nice to see some city combat outside of eclipse tower.
This! I can count on one hand how many custom maps are actually fun to play. Balance isn't that hard to achieve, fun is. You need to make combat fun for both teams, make the maps viable for all lifeforms, give commanders a fair amount of tactical options for expansions... while avoiding or removing anything that frustrates players. It's often a hard pill to swallow but when you hear someone raging it normally means your design is not working and revision/adjustment is required.
Essentially if each team has equal access to an equal amount RT's an TP's the layout is fundamentally balanced adding/removing cover or vents can swing win rates in which ever way you want, For me mapping is a qualitative process, and that's the real value to play-testing your own work. I'm starting to get the feeling there's next no value in win rates unless the map is essentially finished and you have a very large sample of games to draw on.
If you've got a map that feels right and consistently creates interesting, fun games you've got a winner.... and it'll more than likely be fairly balanced to-boot
@Ironsoul the seemingly contrived (room/corridor/room/corridor) nature of NS2 maps is a product of the games design. It provides nice readability for navigation and power-node boundaries but most importantly staging grounds and choke points need to be fairly define and considered in design. I've experimented with trying to make something that blurs the lines between rooms and corridors with fracture and it doesn't work.
Tram is a very clever map in how it connects rooms, its more room/choke/room/choke with very little of the tight corridors that you see in a more typical map like veil, but its still essentially the same thing. That said, I prefer veils style of connections and clearly defined areas, for me its just cleaner design. There's no point in fighting the established conventions of ns2 level-design there's still so much you can do by working within them.
What I meant was, that every time I've seen Howser give me or others advice on map making, he is quick to openly share the most surgical advice on how to create a map from scratch to finish, that could eventually come close to industrial standards. It's clear that he has gathered his wisdom on mapping from hard work and genuine interest for the subject. That makes him a extremely valuable theacher, when you want to make your map fun, balanced and fine tuned for good gameplay.
I just know for a fact that Howser is really humble and that he would never encourage people to not follow what they wanted to do with a project, so I'd just love to see that attitude shine a little brigther than the "Right" attitude.
Both prison and this coming map wants to be proper ns2_ maps, so the input Howser have given me and you are spot on.
I wasen't really trying to discredit him in any way, just to try to nuance his personality a little, some stuff he would view as a waste of time, could be treasured by folks like me who just want what isn't logical
Back on topic, I'll be home the 3rd to discuss my idea with you. I won't do a complete write up in here if we decide against it anyway. Here is a concept piece though
The basic idea is to have marine start be doom3 themed with two portals nearby, leading to the rest of the map taking place in an advanced race long abandoned temple. It's hard to sell it without all my stuff on the pc, so I will eleborate when I get home!
Stop being so nice vert! I take no offence to having my opinions (and that's all they are) challenged. There's many ways to skin a cat and everyone should strive to find their own approach to make the type of work they want to make. While i might dismiss or argue against other peoples ideas it is only to create discussion and in turn force us all question our ideas and methods and maybe form some new ones. Level design is more an art form than a science and there is no 'right' answers just some make it easier than others :P
Comments
No roof? Outdoor maps don't really work in ns2... I mean yea there's those few parts of docking where you can do outside, but it relies on invisible walls, and I'm just not a fan of those.
Again, the amusement part was just a potential idea. We haven't settled on ANY theme yet, and have yet to decide a layout -- that's all still up in the air. I'm starting to get pretty frustrated here, because I'm hearing a lot of suggestions, but not a lot of people actually stepping forward to help out! Unless more mappers step forward soon, this map isn't going to happen.
100% of the maps are on marine territory... marine facility, marine labs, marine spaceships even. i dont want marine home turf every single time i want something that can explain how aliens came into the picture like a crashed biological ship with aliens or spreading infestation on the planet after impact, hell even if the MARINES finally crashed one of their ships on a alien planet, think descent looking parts scattered around forming pathways in between lava or erupting volcanos, some infestation maby even use of dense forest or bamboo depending on direction you want to go. we have so many cool races to pick from but they neglect the entire race of kharaa because technological metal panels & unorganic stuff looks cooler and futuristic.
propably easier to do straight lines with the spark engine than random terrain but thats where the props comes in, if we can create some craters and you can rotate and resize it so it never looks the same, there is endless possibilitys for alien environment or atleast semi alien map with more than 0.5 rooms out of 20 infested at the beginning.
Quick google search for alien environment, slapped in some RT nozzle from ingame and i can really imagine maby it once was marines there trying to extract resources needed for the wreck. In this case i draw some cables but on other places there could be metal panels in ground exposed around the nozzle.
The problem with outdoor environments isn't the players leaving the map, it's the players potentially leaving the map, and re-entering somewhere they shouldn't have been able to get to. Even with the feature you suggest, there's still the possibility of a Lerk going very high over a wall or something, and coming back down on the other side. Not to mention, being outdoors, it makes it difficult to design the level so there are set paths to connect rooms. If there's a forest, for example, how do you give this forest boundaries? How do you keep the players from just slipping in and out of the trees, going as they please? That'd be like walking through the walls in any other map.
Also, all the other maps haven't really been set on the Marine's "home turf" they've been in neutral, non-military areas, like a tram station, an ore refinery, and whatever the hell Summit is supposed to be. Really, the only way to do a "Kharaa homeplanet" level is to either have and outdoor area with invisible or contrived walls (ie a giant glass dome over the area for some reason!), or have it all take place in a cave system of some sort.
Now you want something different? I propose an abandoned futuristic amusement park. It wouldn't have to be silly, it could be a dark and scary place. Or, (and I don't remember if I've mentioned this here on the forums in this thread, or if it was just in a conversation with Iron Souls) but it could also be half amusement-park, half resort hotel FOR the amusement park.
maby cover the swamp with a giant slimy dome like here so you cannot fly out of map. it could be animated to move in and out slowly like its alive or breathing with the organisms inside of it, then tunnels can connect the areas leading from the center.
I have a pretty awesome map idea, I planned to be my next big 1 year + solo project with custom assets. This was a pain to write so I'll elaborate the 4th, but would give you the pre work if you like it and we decide on it. I feel so limited for words, damn phone
Awesome! Glad to have you aboard Vert^.
@RadimaX I still feel like it might not be the best idea for ns2
Focus less on theme and awesome ideas more on layouts and gameplay. Its also worth noting scary or dark maps don't enhance game-play in anyway, in fact they hinder it.
There's nothing wrong with playing it safe. The objective is to make a fun map for NS2... layout and design should be at the forefront of minds at this point. Coming up with grand ideas that take the map away from the proven formula of a corridor shooter style maps literally have no appeal for any experience mappers which know enough to avoid overly ambitious or miss-guided projects. I think talking about, and showing off ideas for layouts (not themes) a much more appealing starting point.
The problem is all experienced NS2 mappers are either removed from community or are committed to their own projects. If you want to recruit talent you'll have to draw peoples attention and sell the idea of the map to potential helpers. I suggest building a grey box map that's fun and use that as a leverage when recruiting people to help dress the map. This might sound a bit harsh but its hard for people to commit to a project that just consists of a few ideas and thin air. You either need a extensively proven track record or have a made a solid start if anyone worth while is going to commit 100's of hours of their spare time to help make this happen.
I'd also recommend you put yourself forward as a project lead and chief designer, and focus ALL your mapping time on making this happen. That means one project!
I really want to see this happen but speaking from my experience of working on mods you need to start it the right way, recruit the right talent for the right jobs and you need strong leadership to realize the project. If you start to build a solid foundation for a good project, the right way, the right people will want to get involved. So don't get frustrated. Get started.
Yes, outdoor is... not for this game. Also, when I said "dark and scary" I meant theme, not lighting.
I'm already the project lead, and I'll gladly be lead designer, though I'd rather reserve that for someone better qualified if such a person comes along at some point.
5 tech points, 11 rts (mineshaft has 11, don't shoot me!) A huge double area in the middle, not unlike central drilling (similar in that it's technically one room, but it's huge, and both rt's are separated by quite a distance.)
Mine shaft is a great pubber map after all!
Here's another to get the ball rolling, a veil-ish layout:
Possibly comp viable, though the neutral Tech points would have to be designed for heavy combat but also viable choking and staging attacks.
I have, briefly. Just earlier today I was playing on that 40 player server... FUN fun times... but I'm still unsure as to how a map tailored for higher player counts would be different. Does that translate to more tech points, res nodes, fewer, or more routes, fewer? I just don't know
I like this layout too! Did you make this one up just for me? :-*
What do you mean by circular? Round shape of entire map shape, or just TP's on the outside?
The problem with non circular maps is that they're pretty much all too big
EDIT: Okay I should clarify, not all tps need to be on the outside, but SOME should. (I'm gonna throw out... 3+... right?)
It's different than the typical tp-rt-tp chain.
EDIT: Hell I don't even know if I came up with this or not... I just started drawing it out, but now that it's finished it looks very familiar... huh... well sorry if I accidentally plagiarized your layout... whoever you are... maybe...
Yeah its just for you beige! While I can't help you guys out as I'm already committed to two projects and have no time for another; I can help you refine your ideas.... maybe...
There's never any real level-design talk on these forums so anything to get some started. A few points I have noticed about ns2 design with some relevance to your original image:
Since the large balance changes giving aliens a free/easy TP is going to give them a massive advantage, counterbalance it by giving the marines easier res access or just avoid it all together. The close proximity tech points are going to be a nightmare to balance.
Play it safe! I see you like trying to come up with something completely new. While I admire that NS2's game design is hugely restrictive on the map layouts. there's nothing wrong with the traditional wagon wheel. Room design has a huge impact on how a map plays so don't focus on coming up with something too different layout wise it'll still be unique if you followed the tried and tested summit style layout.
Double res nodes are usually best avoided as it will create an orgy of destruction but its usually short-lived as the holding teams res snowballs for little investment in holding it. Veils a very clever map by a very clever designer, i haven't seen anyone else pull it off.
One thing I've found useful is not trying to think about the map as RTs/TPs but points of value, chokes and staging grounds. The traditional layout diagrams focus entirely on the placement of RT's,TPS and their connections. This is a seriously over-simplified way of looking at maps and obviously people just use them as a rough guide but its still important to think about how teams attack and defend these 'positions of value'. With fracture I tried to make a much more organic flowing map where you could stage bases or set checkpoints throughout the map. The idea was to make the map more varied in terms of tactics used and ultimately feel less contrived. It simply leads to messy play where gorges become undervalued and the focus moves more to combat rather than tactical base building which is so important for this game. I haven't really developed a way of putting this in a diagram but i had a crack:
or on summit:
chokes are much more important for aliens and should be between 128 and 160 units wide. Space either side for building and a restricted angle of view for marines will increase their effectiveness. Marines rely more on spacing and positioning so creating space for them is also and important aspect of effective staging grounds (not just building structures).
You once told me That detailing a map added nothing in terms of gameplay, and fine tuning the box was where it's at. I believe it's the truth, but I have to keep reminding you That we are not UWE devs and we create stuff to realise ideas not done with an official stamp.
I know your sharing the un said thruths for our benefit. I do however feel like a community projects lend themselves more to wacky dev. rather than strict dev with the official / comp scene in mind.
I felt a little sad reading your reply telling beige to stay away from awesome unique ideas, it should IMO be just about that.
Your layout also provides the alien players with an adjacent TP, I don't understand the difference.
Either way, that's what greybox is for!
@BeigeAlert Marines naturally flow into the two neutral Tech points and they have have outer staging grounds and flanking routes to make them hard for aliens to establish them as a base. There's no perfect layout but i do think TP/TP can work, its just all about the distances in both instances.
Happy new year guys.
I don't mean anything disrespecting against you, but I'd personally put fun and creative freedom above worrying about balance. In other words, I wouldn't mind doing a niche map for an unpopulated game, if what I wanted to make, was indeed the end product. As said earlier we're not devs
Happy new year mate
On the other hand though... I want people to actually play this map when we're done. They'll only play it if it's balanced. Pretty scenery will only do it for so long.
@Howser You are very right.
Yea, I'm just saying that we should make balance our highest priority, because if it looks pretty but doesn't play well, few people will play it, and all our hard work will have been for naught.
EDIT: Come to think of it, I think we're both saying that, so I'm not really sure what I'm arguing about... /:)
I guess we'll just have to ... weigh things up.
A couple of thoughts about NS2 maps in general. I've mainly(only mostly, I think I played on jambi once) played on official maps. And no other games has really had me think "These are just rooms for us to run around in" immersion breaking suspension of disbelief shattering thoughts. I don't know for sure whether it's the gameplay of NS2 itself or how the levels are all so similar in shape and structure but they(official maps at least as that's all I've played) really do feel like nothing more than boxes joined by smaller boxes.
One of my main goals with mapping for NS2 (I haven't done any yet, but that's why it's a goal and not an achievement yet) is to create a level that makes people believe they're in that area doing that thing they're doing and not simply playing a game in a box connected by smaller tunnel boxes.
I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with those statements but that doesn't matter, thats how I personally feel. When I will be building maps, I will be making them to solve the problems I see.
For any custom map you need to do the following
- make it fun to play
- the map must offer somthing different to what is already out there
- it must play well / no exploits etc
- it must be optimised, you must design you level to play on the crappiest pc out there (I am desgigning mine to average out at 40 fps on my pc on max settings, 4year old pc here !)
- you must stick to a general theme and not use everysingle art asset or texture out there
- avoid long corridors
- aim to keep drawcalls under 1800 (you can go to around 2k and it still be acceptable)
- use shadow lights sparingly
- try to give the player a sense of always moving forward in your map, try to avoid to many backwards routes
thats all I can think of atm !
With the cityscape buildings ecpilse has brought to the map it would be nice to see some city combat
This! I can count on one hand how many custom maps are actually fun to play. Balance isn't that hard to achieve, fun is. You need to make combat fun for both teams, make the maps viable for all lifeforms, give commanders a fair amount of tactical options for expansions... while avoiding or removing anything that frustrates players. It's often a hard pill to swallow but when you hear someone raging it normally means your design is not working and revision/adjustment is required.
Essentially if each team has equal access to an equal amount RT's an TP's the layout is fundamentally balanced adding/removing cover or vents can swing win rates in which ever way you want, For me mapping is a qualitative process, and that's the real value to play-testing your own work. I'm starting to get the feeling there's next no value in win rates unless the map is essentially finished and you have a very large sample of games to draw on.
If you've got a map that feels right and consistently creates interesting, fun games you've got a winner.... and it'll more than likely be fairly balanced to-boot
@Ironsoul the seemingly contrived (room/corridor/room/corridor) nature of NS2 maps is a product of the games design. It provides nice readability for navigation and power-node boundaries but most importantly staging grounds and choke points need to be fairly define and considered in design. I've experimented with trying to make something that blurs the lines between rooms and corridors with fracture and it doesn't work.
Tram is a very clever map in how it connects rooms, its more room/choke/room/choke with very little of the tight corridors that you see in a more typical map like veil, but its still essentially the same thing. That said, I prefer veils style of connections and clearly defined areas, for me its just cleaner design. There's no point in fighting the established conventions of ns2 level-design there's still so much you can do by working within them.
What I meant was, that every time I've seen Howser give me or others advice on map making, he is quick to openly share the most surgical advice on how to create a map from scratch to finish, that could eventually come close to industrial standards. It's clear that he has gathered his wisdom on mapping from hard work and genuine interest for the subject. That makes him a extremely valuable theacher, when you want to make your map fun, balanced and fine tuned for good gameplay.
I just know for a fact that Howser is really humble and that he would never encourage people to not follow what they wanted to do with a project, so I'd just love to see that attitude shine a little brigther than the "Right" attitude.
Both prison and this coming map wants to be proper ns2_ maps, so the input Howser have given me and you are spot on.
I wasen't really trying to discredit him in any way, just to try to nuance his personality a little, some stuff he would view as a waste of time, could be treasured by folks like me who just want what isn't logical
Back on topic, I'll be home the 3rd to discuss my idea with you. I won't do a complete write up in here if we decide against it anyway. Here is a concept piece though
The basic idea is to have marine start be doom3 themed with two portals nearby, leading to the rest of the map taking place in an advanced race long abandoned temple. It's hard to sell it without all my stuff on the pc, so I will eleborate when I get home!