I'm just saying if you ambush a marine, the first thing they'll do is turn around and shoot you, and IIRC a rifle marine at A3 will drop a C3 skulk faster than the bites come out, and with no momentum you're going to be a very easy target to hit. Compared to a skulk at full speed biting and flowing around a marine making the skulk much harder to hit as well as maintaining momentum for a possible escape.
The problem is that marines are currently too strong at melee ranges with their default weapon. either skulk biting needs to kill faster (which causes tons of damage issues) or marines need to kill slightly slower at close range (which also causes damage issues and makes no sense). So there's really no way to balance it out in terms of damage without throwing other balances askew
one of the other viable ways is to add more utility to the basic skulk to mitigate the reduced effectiveness compared to marines; such as increased speed, energy, or an ability that allows him to close gaps faster(leap, which isn't reliable in the sense that it requires biomass, multiple hives, as well as needing to be researched). Or that marines need a decrease in utility in order to smooth the gap such as being unable to jump when a certain threshold of damage is reached, slowed marine movement speed, reduced jump height/speed, or placing a better limit on the number of jumps a marine can make in rapid succession.
Personally as I said in an earlier post, they should test out some experimental ways to tone down marine jump spam without affecting out of combat movement.
See the funny thing is you say it needs removed as you play aliens?
What happens when you play marine and move like a tank? but shoot like a water pistol?
Marine jump is good, maybe they could tone it down a little, maybe they could make it so once a marine gets below certain amount of HP they cant jump and slow down? maybe??
But then again once players get used to the different movements etc they will be able to kill jumping marines with ease.
Strafe jump is A lot less op than it has been. It goes back to the fact that in public it can be really effective and almost op, but In competitive and even on vet servers (with players who actually know how to play aliens) it is essential- otherwise skulks can just steam role marines.
Just be quite, be sneaky, stack up together and attack as a team! The amount of nabs that run straight at me is ridiculous and predictable and any decent marine will be able to kill 3/4 skulks on his own with ease.
I'm still not seeing why marine jump needs to be nerfed when most skulks are hardly even using their ability to climb walls to the fullest. It's easier than ever to move up and down walls and perform evasive maneuvers while in close quarters with a marine since the 261 collision change.
The Marine jumping really got better compared to previous builds and I also got used to the hit and run tactics. If I get a bite or two in and survive for another attack, thats enough for me. It's likely he will be finished off by a teammate. If not, everything that makes Marine retreat or slow his advance helps the Hive xD.
The stealth tactics someone else mentioned above only works to a certain extent: Only if you have a good spot where you can fall on your sacrifice's head and the he must be alone. It's extremly hard to stealth into a room already occupied by Marines. Stealth means you need to move slow and silent, however you need that extra speed to close the gap and land a bite.
Though I like the idea of jump-exhaustion either through an energy bar (which also adds realism), a HP-penalty or slowdown through Parasite.
Balancing a high skill cap game around competitive is a terrible idea.
Ehh.. I'm not touching that one.. but at its core it sounds like you are suggesting to
A) Balance around unskilled and unreliable pub data (no one would ever actually do this..) Lower the skill ceiling / Remove skilled play (on that note, fuck "suppression screen blur")
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
As a frequent alien i'd find it rather boring if i killed everyone i got into a 1 meter radius of. I'd never lose. Pls dont let there be hard counters, "but they are ranged and they are melee" is a poor excuse in a competitive game.
they cater for casual, but not exclusively. this is because in the video game industry if you don't cater for the casual then you remove the majority of your demographic.
but on the other side, if you don't cater for the skilled players then you aren't giving an incentive for people to play enough to become skilled at the game. noone cares about a game which is just for casuals, everyone wants to see skilled players better than themselves to spur them on, to justify the time investment and want to be as good as them.
also, i'm not sure what the tf2 competitive mod is... just an item white list and class limit to create a more 'standard' format and prevent boring games. if there were no class limits it would probably be 4 demoman + 2 medic in every game and noone would use any other class.
@tarquinbb
4 demo and 2 medics would not be chosen by any decent clan...even without restrictions.
So you think think that CS/TFC/2 focuses on comp more than casual players?
Sorry but I totally disagree, CS Source with the random bullet spread (1st incantation of crits) and headshots definately dummed the game down for the casual player.
Both these games have been so succesful for a long time due to them focusing on keeping pub games fun and relying on mods to appease the comp players who want to restrict/change certain things (deathcam as an example).
You dont need to cater for skilled players, you need to cater for all players..you need 100+casual gamers for every comp player you will end up with.
Comp players dont find the next best thing and the casual base follows...thats backwards to the reality.
CS, DOD, TFC all cater to the casual player, this is why they have been so succesful. They understand that comp players make up a small% of your player base (lets say 1%) and that comp players all started off playing casually.
Rarely is someones exposure to a game via watching E-sport/comp games, its normally a casual game with a bunch of casual gamers.
Therefor what hooks them is that casual gaming experience.
This is why we need to ensure the game is accesible, the marine side is very accesible however aliens infuriates most new players with mechanics such as marines being 50-50 chance of winning a melle battle.
Given their absolute dominance at range it is very disheartnening for new players.
I think the simplest solutions are often the best and would suggest either removing the penalty reduction when marines jump up onto things, limit the number of jumps in a 5 second period or remove firing whilst jumping.
Marines should be at a disadvantage once an aliens within melee range, even a lowly skulk should win more often than not.
until marines are winning over 50% of match's on NS2, I don't think they need a nerf by any means. Also, you can ambush and maintain your momentum already. Have you ever tried moving around your opponent after you land the first bite from behind? I have over dozens of times and every marine turns around shooting at their feet because they expect to find a skulk chomping at their feet when instead I've moved beside them or behind them. Don't be the silly skulk that makes it obvious where you are after you bite, start dodging as soon as you bite and you will win a lot more
Yes I mean clearly candycrush has obtained it massive popularity from targetting the pro gamers with a lot of skill based movement and high skill floor and ceilings.
If a high skill ceiling and skill based movement was so important then why are games such as candycrush so popular?
What it does offer is an enjoyable gameplay thats easily accesible to players across all exp levels.
Marine movement should not match that of aliens and they should be weaker where aliens are stronger...this game is asymetrical after all.
I would hit the frigging ceiling if one of those ankle biters flew up on my knees. I disagree that it's unrealistic. Even if not jumping was realistic, I think it's awful from a gameplay perspective.
Marine movement should not match that of aliens and they should be weaker where aliens are stronger...this game is asymetrical after all.
We should make the game that was built around competitive skill and who's only game mode is a multiplayer team vs team action mode, more sluggish and less competitive. Because it's asymmetry magically justifies random thoughtless changes that bad players suggested; based on little more than how they personally feel the game would be better. I mean, after all, it worked for a casual single player puzzle game! (which I will point out is actually very difficult and fairly fast paced in the later levels, so the argument that people don't like challenging gameplay doesn't hold even there)
Nice, I'm pretty sure you have the recipe for game design success right there!
And the most ironic thing about this discussion is that those good players don't jump in random combat situations. Sometimes I just lost hope for humanity when I read these forums.
@tarquinbb
4 demo and 2 medics would not be chosen by any decent clan...even without restrictions.
So you think think that CS/TFC/2 focuses on comp more than casual players?
Sorry but I totally disagree, CS Source with the random bullet spread (1st incantation of crits) and headshots definately dummed the game down for the casual player.
Both these games have been so succesful for a long time due to them focusing on keeping pub games fun and relying on mods to appease the comp players who want to restrict/change certain things (deathcam as an example).
You dont need to cater for skilled players, you need to cater for all players..you need 100+casual gamers for every comp player you will end up with.
Comp players dont find the next best thing and the casual base follows...thats backwards to the reality.
CS, DOD, TFC all cater to the casual player, this is why they have been so succesful. They understand that comp players make up a small% of your player base (lets say 1%) and that comp players all started off playing casually.
Rarely is someones exposure to a game via watching E-sport/comp games, its normally a casual game with a bunch of casual gamers.
Therefor what hooks them is that casual gaming experience.
This is why we need to ensure the game is accesible, the marine side is very accesible however aliens infuriates most new players with mechanics such as marines being 50-50 chance of winning a melle battle.
Given their absolute dominance at range it is very disheartnening for new players.
I think the simplest solutions are often the best and would suggest either removing the penalty reduction when marines jump up onto things, limit the number of jumps in a 5 second period or remove firing whilst jumping.
Marines should be at a disadvantage once an aliens within melee range, even a lowly skulk should win more often than not.
I strongly agree with much you have written in the post. But I don't think you have the right solution. Random crits and bullet spread are probabilistic things. They are used to level the skill difference between good and bad players by chance. Really good players hate them, because their advantage by skill gets reduced by chance. But those are necessary to make the game more fun for not so good players. To get them their occasional reward / kill, even if it meant it was by luck.
BUT when marines are more vulnerable in a melee battle, that won't be the same. Good players who already often kill a marine on melee range will now kill EVERY marine they engage at melee range. While for bad aliens you may only reach a 50% chance. This way you are screwing the overall balance of marines vs aliens while doing nothing to make the game more accessible for new or casual players. It does nothing to level the difference between good and bad players. And that is what is needed to make the game more fun for the casuals WITHOUT reducing the wonderful complexity of NS2.
Perhaps there needs to be more of a slow down upon landing from a jump to deter retarded looking marines frolicking everywhere? It really is bad. Standing on the ground and slightly looking up helps, but at least 2/3 of my bites don't hit.
CS isn't. TF2 is but there's a competitive mod iirc?
There's a tournament mode, the rest is just simple server settings (essentials like no crits and no random pellet/damage spread). Every league has an item whitelist that ranges from banning 98% of weapons to allowing everything that isn't horribly bugged or gamebreaking depending on the league and format (6v6 or 9v9).
As for OP, marines should have some ability to dodge, jump dodging isn't terribly difficult to counter as it is.
A lot of this can be solved by giving a crosshair to skulks so people can actually aim their bites. Solved with a custom crosshair, but why not make it official for newbs who don't know about mods.
At this point I doubt the devs care because ppl have been getting mad at this for a LONG time.
EDIT: Also, I dont think jumping has much competitive/skill in it you can practically spam the space bar as long as you move in the right direction.
Going to the other thing that some of u are arguing about, NS2 has become centered on casual players, simple.
Comments
The problem is that marines are currently too strong at melee ranges with their default weapon. either skulk biting needs to kill faster (which causes tons of damage issues) or marines need to kill slightly slower at close range (which also causes damage issues and makes no sense). So there's really no way to balance it out in terms of damage without throwing other balances askew
one of the other viable ways is to add more utility to the basic skulk to mitigate the reduced effectiveness compared to marines; such as increased speed, energy, or an ability that allows him to close gaps faster(leap, which isn't reliable in the sense that it requires biomass, multiple hives, as well as needing to be researched). Or that marines need a decrease in utility in order to smooth the gap such as being unable to jump when a certain threshold of damage is reached, slowed marine movement speed, reduced jump height/speed, or placing a better limit on the number of jumps a marine can make in rapid succession.
Personally as I said in an earlier post, they should test out some experimental ways to tone down marine jump spam without affecting out of combat movement.
What happens when you play marine and move like a tank? but shoot like a water pistol?
Marine jump is good, maybe they could tone it down a little, maybe they could make it so once a marine gets below certain amount of HP they cant jump and slow down? maybe??
But then again once players get used to the different movements etc they will be able to kill jumping marines with ease.
Just be quite, be sneaky, stack up together and attack as a team! The amount of nabs that run straight at me is ridiculous and predictable and any decent marine will be able to kill 3/4 skulks on his own with ease.
The stealth tactics someone else mentioned above only works to a certain extent: Only if you have a good spot where you can fall on your sacrifice's head and the he must be alone. It's extremly hard to stealth into a room already occupied by Marines. Stealth means you need to move slow and silent, however you need that extra speed to close the gap and land a bite.
Though I like the idea of jump-exhaustion either through an energy bar (which also adds realism), a HP-penalty or slowdown through Parasite.
@tarquinbb
4 demo and 2 medics would not be chosen by any decent clan...even without restrictions.
So you think think that CS/TFC/2 focuses on comp more than casual players?
Sorry but I totally disagree, CS Source with the random bullet spread (1st incantation of crits) and headshots definately dummed the game down for the casual player.
Both these games have been so succesful for a long time due to them focusing on keeping pub games fun and relying on mods to appease the comp players who want to restrict/change certain things (deathcam as an example).
You dont need to cater for skilled players, you need to cater for all players..you need 100+casual gamers for every comp player you will end up with.
Comp players dont find the next best thing and the casual base follows...thats backwards to the reality.
CS, DOD, TFC all cater to the casual player, this is why they have been so succesful. They understand that comp players make up a small% of your player base (lets say 1%) and that comp players all started off playing casually.
Rarely is someones exposure to a game via watching E-sport/comp games, its normally a casual game with a bunch of casual gamers.
Therefor what hooks them is that casual gaming experience.
This is why we need to ensure the game is accesible, the marine side is very accesible however aliens infuriates most new players with mechanics such as marines being 50-50 chance of winning a melle battle.
Given their absolute dominance at range it is very disheartnening for new players.
I think the simplest solutions are often the best and would suggest either removing the penalty reduction when marines jump up onto things, limit the number of jumps in a 5 second period or remove firing whilst jumping.
Marines should be at a disadvantage once an aliens within melee range, even a lowly skulk should win more often than not.
Game on
If a high skill ceiling and skill based movement was so important then why are games such as candycrush so popular?
What it does offer is an enjoyable gameplay thats easily accesible to players across all exp levels.
Marine movement should not match that of aliens and they should be weaker where aliens are stronger...this game is asymetrical after all.
Nice, I'm pretty sure you have the recipe for game design success right there!
edit: Oh and she could also not jump all the time.
I strongly agree with much you have written in the post. But I don't think you have the right solution. Random crits and bullet spread are probabilistic things. They are used to level the skill difference between good and bad players by chance. Really good players hate them, because their advantage by skill gets reduced by chance. But those are necessary to make the game more fun for not so good players. To get them their occasional reward / kill, even if it meant it was by luck.
BUT when marines are more vulnerable in a melee battle, that won't be the same. Good players who already often kill a marine on melee range will now kill EVERY marine they engage at melee range. While for bad aliens you may only reach a 50% chance. This way you are screwing the overall balance of marines vs aliens while doing nothing to make the game more accessible for new or casual players. It does nothing to level the difference between good and bad players. And that is what is needed to make the game more fun for the casuals WITHOUT reducing the wonderful complexity of NS2.
ftfy
True. But it does provide mild levels of entertainment when you are bored at work.
As for OP, marines should have some ability to dodge, jump dodging isn't terribly difficult to counter as it is.
EDIT: Also, I dont think jumping has much competitive/skill in it you can practically spam the space bar as long as you move in the right direction.
Going to the other thing that some of u are arguing about, NS2 has become centered on casual players, simple.