IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I like your idea..
But if it's too much of a nerf, marines will avoid using it and it would be the same as removing jump entirely.. So finding that right amount is paramount.
Also, isn't the issue the quick change in direction, and not necessarily what the marine does after the jump? (meaning a slow on land mechanic wouldn't do anything?)
Suggestions I've seen so far:
1) Slow down when parasited.
2) Slow down when bited.
3) Energy bar that exhausts each jump, could include the shift running too.
4) No reload in air.
5) Fall down when hit in air.
6) Modifing jump height, length, speed,...
7) Slow down after 1 or 2 jumps (like the one in CS:S after a jump).
No slow downs.. That's terrible and frustrating game design.
No need for a stamina bar, you already cannot spam jump.
No reload in air doesn't address the only problem with jumping.. quick movement displacing the marine, preventing the skulk from tracking?
Fall down when hit in air is the same problem as the first two. It's been tried in alpha /beta days and it was universally hated.
Jumps already slow you down if spammed... Again.. For the fourth time mentioned in this thread.
The only suggestion with merit remaining is #6. Modifying the jump height and speed.
Currently marine feet reach the same height as the marine 's head.. I've always thought this made it more difficult to track for newer skulks.. And there's really very little reason to have marine jump height animation so high off the ground..
Suggestions I've seen so far:
1) Slow down when parasited.
2) Slow down when bited.
These changes also negatively impact the marines in later stages of the game when stronger aliens hit the field and skulks gain access to leap and celerity. What other changes will be made to balance that out?
3) Energy bar that exhausts each jump, could include the shift running too.
One of the big reasons why they took out sprint stamina in the first place was to address early game map control issues for marines. Putting this back in will simply reintroduce those issues.
4) No reload in air.
This doesn't address the core issue where marines can quickly displace themselves and gun down attacking skulks. At most, it would just be an annoying change.
5) Fall down when hit in air.
Pretty much the equivalent of removing jump from the game entirely, as no sane player will even bother jumping with this in effect.
What do you propose would be an appropriate counter-balancing measure?
Additionally, annoying hard CC effects start and end with Onos stomp, and having a similar effect so early in the game will greatly skew the power balance in aliens' favor. No, thanks.
6) Modifing jump height, length, speed,...
In what way?
7) Slow down after 1 or 2 jumps (like the one in CS:S after a jump).
I've just noted all suggestions I seen in various threads.
Jumps already slow you down if spammed... Again.. For the fourth time mentioned in this thread.
This already exists.
Run, jump, run, jump,... works infinitly in NS2, it doesn't work in CS:S
The only suggestion with merit remaining is #6. Modifying the jump height and speed.
Currently marine feet reach the same height as the marine 's head.. I've always thought this made it more difficult to track for newer skulks.. And there's really very little reason to have marine jump height animation so high off the ground..
I'm not sure here. Helps Marine to get into places higher above, like vents. Maybe lower the total jump height but make it so, that crouch helps em get into vents and on crates. You know crouch-jump like in HL2.
That jump would still be possible throughout Skulk attack, but little more difficult because you'd have to use Ctrl too.
I'm not sure here. Helps Marine to get into places higher above, like vents. .
Collision "pill" box is separate from the hitbox and player collision cylinder.
You could leave the collision pill box the same, and just modify the actual animation; therefore effecting the hitbox by making the feet closer to the ground than 6 feet.
The downside to this? A marine jumping into a vent would "snap" into crouch animation.. which.. is fine i think, it already occurs this way for the fade (and most other games out there) and it looks just fine.. but arguably it would not be as smooth of a transition.
Gameplay wise it wouldn't effect better skilled players / move the skill ceiling, but would definitely lower the skill floor - so i'm not opposed to the suggestion.
As far as these things go I'm going to argee with Ironhorse here. I think adjusting the animation/hitbox might be an ok change. meh...maybe. As far as I can tell no one here is against helping lesser skilled aliens, provided of course, that it doesn't absolutely murder the marines either.
I can also definitely argee that alien movement, which includes skulking, is a lot harder to pick up than marine aiming and weaving, mostly because marines are kinda limited in their movement. So many ground skulks charging me, so little time to teach them all *sigh*.
As long as we can find a way to make marines slightly easier to track for lesser skilled aliens, but not weaken the current marines, I'm sure a compromise could be reached. I'm pretty sure it still won't fix the issue of player retention though. I'm still going to get ground skulks charging me. Its like no one even uses the tutorial tips for the lifeforms.
I think once we can find a way to drill it into every new players head that they MUST never ever charge marines on the ground then we might see new players enjoying both teams instead of just the familiar one.
^Just my opinion though of course, anyone and everyone is welcome to disagree and give words to the contrary
@Nailo Very good post, agreeing completly with everything you said there. @IronHorse Oh ok. Worth a thought. But sounds time consuming to implement. @Roobubba No I totally suck at Marine. I'm mediocre Skulk and pretty good Gorge.
If I play Marine I'm the one building stuff in base, extractors and running around between them and wield everything / everyone that's wieldable. Means my aim sux hard. However the jumping is so easy to do. I evade every attacking Skulk long enough that I either survive until my comrades come help or I do enough damage that the Skulk will have to retreat and die miserably alone next to the powernode I wielded.
My point was, that I dislike it when people come and say: "Look how this pro comp plays Skulk. See thats how you keep track of a Marine and you guys all just have to l2p like him". Ohh yeah ofc it is possible to keep track of a Marine if one keeps training long enough and get the knack of it. But when going Marine, one doesn't have to train the Marine jump very long. Ofc you can perfect it, but the principle is easy enough that a rookie can do it the second round he plays Marine.
Also noting, that the Marine jump only really helps against early Skulk. Therefor it is a feature helping Marine stand their ground at early game. Every nerf to that feature (if any) would also mean that Marines need a buff for early game and only the early game. Would you agree with that thought?
@Nailo Very good post, agreeing completly with everything you said there. @IronHorse Oh ok. Worth a thought. But sounds time consuming to implement. @Roobubba No I totally suck at Marine. I'm mediocre Skulk and pretty good Gorge.
If I play Marine I'm the one building stuff in base, extractors and running around between them and wield everything / everyone that's wieldable. Means my aim sux hard. However the jumping is so easy to do. I evade every attacking Skulk long enough that I either survive until my comrades come help or I do enough damage that the Skulk will have to retreat and die miserably alone next to the powernode I wielded.
My point was, that I dislike it when people come and say: "Look how this pro comp plays Skulk. See thats how you keep track of a Marine and you guys all just have to l2p like him". Ohh yeah ofc it is possible to keep track of a Marine if one keeps training long enough and get the knack of it. But when going Marine, one doesn't have to train the Marine jump very long. Ofc you can perfect it, but the principle is easy enough that a rookie can do it the second round he plays Marine.
Also noting, that the Marine jump only really helps against early Skulk. Therefor it is a feature helping Marine stand their ground at early game. Every nerf to that feature (if any) would also mean that Marines need a buff for early game and only the early game. Would you agree with that thought?
Stop overplaying the amount of skill it needs to point at something and click on it.
By your accounts it sounds like you're playing against skulks that have absolutely no idea what they're doing, if indeed EVERY skulk you come across is so bad at aiming all you have to do is jump around until someone else comes along to save you
coughBULLSHITcough
Why the hell do you even play this game if all you do is weld and complain?
The entire suggestion of nerfing jump is just a crappy band aid to the real issue. That is aliens have a really rough learning curve. The game needs a real tutorial, at least one that just explains the basics, how to walljump, stick in packs, the floor is lava as a skulk etc etc.
BTW linking youtube videos is not a real tutorial, I mean an ingame tutorial.
Nerfing jump only encourages bad play. And jumps already been nerfed, go ahead keep nerfing it until people find something else to complain about.
Combat mod should be the tutorial. In NS1 it was the go-to place for new players to learn the basic combat mechanics of the game, and from there the RTS elements were easier to pick up.
I think we should stop QQing so much. With the recent (last patch) change to collision tracking and sticking to marine even in the air has become VASTLY easier. I think you are all stuck on the mentality built around the previous, terrible collision mechanics.
"Wait... Unintuitive? This is probably the most intuitive mechanic in the game >__<" <
Agreed, you press jump, Marine goes away from ground. Like in every other FPS bar some tricky ones like Goldeneye or Doom.
I think we should stop QQing so much. With the recent (last patch) change to collision tracking and sticking to marine even in the air has become VASTLY easier. I think you are all stuck on the mentality built around the previous, terrible collision mechanics.
Honestly, the new collision has, as an alien, got me killed more than it's got me a kill. And it's buggy to the point where I nearly made a thread about it (marines getting stuck on IPs, and I had a game earlier where an entire team of marines got stuck in eachother, in a phase gate, constantly phasing all over the map and unable to do anything).
Gorges, other skulks, anything... It's easy to get blocked out in the open by a teammate now, especially when there are a couple of skulks on an extractor and you're trying to not get hit. You'll get hit. And I can think of one or two occaisions where I've stopped dead on a marines face and been able to bite him. Compared to dozens of times where it's fucked everything up. lol
One thing to note about alien play is that alien power comes from mobility, they have more freedom to choose their engagements. The key to be a strong skulk player is to know when you have an advantage and go through with it.
Another thing to note is that aliens are usually weaker in 1v1 situation. It's important that they sync up their play with their teammates, this can be done with their mobility advantage. If marines are pushing on both sides aliens have enough time to ambush both of them with superior numbers if scouted early enough. Add to that decoys, stronger sustainability and the power of adv lifeforms marines would be in a hopeless situation if they had no way to maneuver in close combat.
Lastly a mistimed jump from the marine actually leaves him at an disadvantage, the skulk needs however to know how to punish it. When in the air he will move in a single direction with a small slow down on landing (making him very predictable), There is less chance he get medpacks and you have a chance to get under him.
The main issue with beginners and alien play is that melee+mobility gameplay is pretty rare these days. Also ns2 required much more awareness in public play to sync up with your team mates than other games do. The true issue with aliens is simply accessibility to the game and lack of good tutorial.
Honestly, the new collision has, as an alien, got me killed more than it's got me a kill. And it's buggy to the point where I nearly made a thread about it (marines getting stuck on IPs, and I had a game earlier where an entire team of marines got stuck in eachother, in a phase gate, constantly phasing all over the map and unable to do anything).
Was that on YO Clan Server in Veil, PG to Cargo? Made a winning game a loosing one xD
Honestly, the new collision has, as an alien, got me killed more than it's got me a kill. And it's buggy to the point where I nearly made a thread about it (marines getting stuck on IPs, and I had a game earlier where an entire team of marines got stuck in eachother, in a phase gate, constantly phasing all over the map and unable to do anything).
Was that on YO Clan Server in Veil, PG to Cargo? Made a winning game a loosing one xD
Hahah that's the one! Thought I recognised your name from somewhere
Crap players are balanced by other crap players, not by lowering the skill ceiling... Now if the argument is that the skill floor of marines is higher then the skill floor of aliens that is different. As someone who is above average, I have little to input as far as adjusting the skill floor, but any change should not affect the skill ceiling.
@MaD_MaX_ I think its the other way around. Feel free to step in if you can correct me but I do believe that the skill floor for the aliens is higher than that of the marines.
I would say the skill floor for the marines is lower, but there's a skill 'hump', past the floor for both sides that I think is much lower for skulks.
Once you understand you need to ambush with your friends as a skulk, engagements become a simple matter of 'wait for friends, attack when you have numbers, then go bite RTs and stuff'. That's the hump to get over to make you an averagely useful skulk.
Marines are fairly easy to just pick up- you know how to run, jump, shoot, reload... But zoning and positioning is so important with marines, and much harder to learn than skulk pack play. That's the hump to get over with marines, it's much higher AND it's also very dependant on your teammates, so quite often whether or not you're killing stuff/ getting killled is indepedant of how well your personal performance is
Comments
But if it's too much of a nerf, marines will avoid using it and it would be the same as removing jump entirely.. So finding that right amount is paramount.
Also, isn't the issue the quick change in direction, and not necessarily what the marine does after the jump? (meaning a slow on land mechanic wouldn't do anything?)
1) Slow down when parasited.
2) Slow down when bited.
3) Energy bar that exhausts each jump, could include the shift running too.
4) No reload in air.
5) Fall down when hit in air.
6) Modifing jump height, length, speed,...
7) Slow down after 1 or 2 jumps (like the one in CS:S after a jump).
No slow downs.. That's terrible and frustrating game design.
No need for a stamina bar, you already cannot spam jump.
No reload in air doesn't address the only problem with jumping.. quick movement displacing the marine, preventing the skulk from tracking?
Fall down when hit in air is the same problem as the first two. It's been tried in alpha /beta days and it was universally hated.
Jumps already slow you down if spammed... Again.. For the fourth time mentioned in this thread.
The only suggestion with merit remaining is #6. Modifying the jump height and speed.
Currently marine feet reach the same height as the marine 's head.. I've always thought this made it more difficult to track for newer skulks.. And there's really very little reason to have marine jump height animation so high off the ground..
These changes also negatively impact the marines in later stages of the game when stronger aliens hit the field and skulks gain access to leap and celerity. What other changes will be made to balance that out?
One of the big reasons why they took out sprint stamina in the first place was to address early game map control issues for marines. Putting this back in will simply reintroduce those issues.
This doesn't address the core issue where marines can quickly displace themselves and gun down attacking skulks. At most, it would just be an annoying change.
Pretty much the equivalent of removing jump from the game entirely, as no sane player will even bother jumping with this in effect.
What do you propose would be an appropriate counter-balancing measure?
Additionally, annoying hard CC effects start and end with Onos stomp, and having a similar effect so early in the game will greatly skew the power balance in aliens' favor. No, thanks.
In what way?
This already exists.
Run, jump, run, jump,... works infinitly in NS2, it doesn't work in CS:S
I'm not sure here. Helps Marine to get into places higher above, like vents. Maybe lower the total jump height but make it so, that crouch helps em get into vents and on crates. You know crouch-jump like in HL2.
That jump would still be possible throughout Skulk attack, but little more difficult because you'd have to use Ctrl too.
You could leave the collision pill box the same, and just modify the actual animation; therefore effecting the hitbox by making the feet closer to the ground than 6 feet.
The downside to this? A marine jumping into a vent would "snap" into crouch animation.. which.. is fine i think, it already occurs this way for the fade (and most other games out there) and it looks just fine.. but arguably it would not be as smooth of a transition.
Gameplay wise it wouldn't effect better skilled players / move the skill ceiling, but would definitely lower the skill floor - so i'm not opposed to the suggestion.
I can also definitely argee that alien movement, which includes skulking, is a lot harder to pick up than marine aiming and weaving, mostly because marines are kinda limited in their movement. So many ground skulks charging me, so little time to teach them all *sigh*.
As long as we can find a way to make marines slightly easier to track for lesser skilled aliens, but not weaken the current marines, I'm sure a compromise could be reached. I'm pretty sure it still won't fix the issue of player retention though. I'm still going to get ground skulks charging me. Its like no one even uses the tutorial tips for the lifeforms.
I think once we can find a way to drill it into every new players head that they MUST never ever charge marines on the ground then we might see new players enjoying both teams instead of just the familiar one.
^Just my opinion though of course, anyone and everyone is welcome to disagree and give words to the contrary
Oh man you must be s0 pr0.
@IronHorse Oh ok. Worth a thought. But sounds time consuming to implement.
@Roobubba No I totally suck at Marine. I'm mediocre Skulk and pretty good Gorge.
Also noting, that the Marine jump only really helps against early Skulk. Therefor it is a feature helping Marine stand their ground at early game. Every nerf to that feature (if any) would also mean that Marines need a buff for early game and only the early game. Would you agree with that thought?
Stop overplaying the amount of skill it needs to point at something and click on it.
By your accounts it sounds like you're playing against skulks that have absolutely no idea what they're doing, if indeed EVERY skulk you come across is so bad at aiming all you have to do is jump around until someone else comes along to save you
Why the hell do you even play this game if all you do is weld and complain?
BTW linking youtube videos is not a real tutorial, I mean an ingame tutorial.
Nerfing jump only encourages bad play. And jumps already been nerfed, go ahead keep nerfing it until people find something else to complain about.
Agreed, you press jump, Marine goes away from ground. Like in every other FPS bar some tricky ones like Goldeneye or Doom.
Honestly, the new collision has, as an alien, got me killed more than it's got me a kill. And it's buggy to the point where I nearly made a thread about it (marines getting stuck on IPs, and I had a game earlier where an entire team of marines got stuck in eachother, in a phase gate, constantly phasing all over the map and unable to do anything).
Gorges, other skulks, anything... It's easy to get blocked out in the open by a teammate now, especially when there are a couple of skulks on an extractor and you're trying to not get hit. You'll get hit. And I can think of one or two occaisions where I've stopped dead on a marines face and been able to bite him. Compared to dozens of times where it's fucked everything up. lol
Another thing to note is that aliens are usually weaker in 1v1 situation. It's important that they sync up their play with their teammates, this can be done with their mobility advantage. If marines are pushing on both sides aliens have enough time to ambush both of them with superior numbers if scouted early enough. Add to that decoys, stronger sustainability and the power of adv lifeforms marines would be in a hopeless situation if they had no way to maneuver in close combat.
Lastly a mistimed jump from the marine actually leaves him at an disadvantage, the skulk needs however to know how to punish it. When in the air he will move in a single direction with a small slow down on landing (making him very predictable), There is less chance he get medpacks and you have a chance to get under him.
The main issue with beginners and alien play is that melee+mobility gameplay is pretty rare these days. Also ns2 required much more awareness in public play to sync up with your team mates than other games do. The true issue with aliens is simply accessibility to the game and lack of good tutorial.
Hahah that's the one! Thought I recognised your name from somewhere
Once you understand you need to ambush with your friends as a skulk, engagements become a simple matter of 'wait for friends, attack when you have numbers, then go bite RTs and stuff'. That's the hump to get over to make you an averagely useful skulk.
Marines are fairly easy to just pick up- you know how to run, jump, shoot, reload... But zoning and positioning is so important with marines, and much harder to learn than skulk pack play. That's the hump to get over with marines, it's much higher AND it's also very dependant on your teammates, so quite often whether or not you're killing stuff/ getting killled is indepedant of how well your personal performance is