(If I recall correctly, mindraping architecture like that was possible in original UT and Duke Nukem 3d)
Possible? Yes, but it opened a whole new can of worms. There are many things that need to be considered when setting the stuff up in UT:
- The destination surface must be exactly the same size as the origin surface, otherwise you get a rendering error.
- The surface normals need to face the correct direction (like two ends of a magnet), otherwise you get a rendering error.
- You must not be able to see the warp zone entrance through the entrance again, otherwise it won't render.
- The player won't see himself through a warp zone.
- The room behind the warp zone entrance surface needs to be large enough to fit the object that is passing through, both in the entrance and the exit.
- The transition is more noticeable if you look sidewards while walking through.
- Particle effects of projectiles traveling through the warp zone will appear to stretch through the map towards the new destination for a split second.
- Line and Box traces don't go through warp zones, so instant-hit weapons don't work with them.
- The aforementioned games use BSP for level geometry and warp zones. Something that is not present in NS2's engine.
It was more of a gimmick. And the implementation of the stuff honestly got worse in UE2 compared to UE1 and is completely absent in UE3.
Portal uses a different technique, but the whole game is dedicated to that after all. They actually clone the object that is passing through the portal and then disable the collision of one of the duplicate objects entirely as it passes halfway into the wall while enabling it on the other object. They also had to work out how to render multiple portals that recursively see each other. And rendering the player model on the other side of the portal.
Is anyone actually opposed to it going back to being researchable?
The balance implications of starting with gorge tunnels may be severe, but I strongly believe that another solution should be found, rather than reverting this change. In my own personal experience, the necessity for early gorges (typically multiple ones) has been the most refreshing gameplay change made in recent months. I do not feel that relegating the class to useless status once again is an acceptable "balance" change.
The extreme amount of early gorges dropping tunnels everywhere has been the most refreshingly painful experience I've had in a video game. The stress to get them all before the whole map is networked is maddening.
Because it's a George 'Tunnel' Not a George 'Air duct' or George 'Go through Wall blob'
So Gorge 'Sinkhole' would be a more matching description. xD
@Somati
Gorges are vital enough through early, mid and lategame. Honestly there are about the same amount of Gorges around earlygame than before they made GT free. It just "forces" them evolve in hive room and you note them more.
Just to clarify for anyone that might be reading this thread :-h
You mean make it researchable and placable everywhere, right?
Would you put GT back at first spot in research tree and combine Babblers + Bile Bomb at third?
(Babblers (research) is the joke of the century anyway).
Biodome/Falls. I mean one of the "planar-est" hive of them all and it takes minutes to find a viable single location.
Furnace : you can't even drop it on the floor near the power node. It was good to be able to set the tunnel up the ladder.
I think the game is seen in a 2D fashion while it should be in 3D by developers.
I'm for :
A/ Tunnels on walls. Yes! Even if the model have to change a little to adapt it to any situation. The issues cited before (Onos & gorge etc..) is because teammates don't talk. It's a teamwork matter first. Why on walls ? Alien are opposed to marine and do the same thing by different ways. Marine PG are to be on the floor, so Alien tunnel should be different by definition. A tunnel on wall is ok following this rule of opposition.
B/ A nexus that connects every tunnel. Suggested in another posts and i like the idea. This gives a bit of strategy possibility for alien.
Actually when you loose a tunnel, things are crippled. Sometime it's just "game over" as it is a cost for a gorge. When game starts, you can't even evolve gorge, set a tunnel, and 3 hydras. You don't have enough money...
Don't care :
Research or not is not relevant as it is a strategy thing. What alien needs is more possibilities with tunnel. One way (money, research, nexus) or the other is secondary.
(If I recall correctly, mindraping architecture like that was possible in original UT and Duke Nukem 3d)
- You must not be able to see the warp zone entrance through the entrance again, otherwise it won't render.
- The player won't see himself through a warp zone.
Hmmm, I'm positive I've seen 1+ instances of myself and was able to shoot myself in the knee (literally). Gotta install UT and dat fun map filled with warps when I'm home. You know, those memories make things look better than they were ^_^
Just to clarify for anyone that might be reading this thread :-h
You mean make it researchable and placable everywhere, right?
Obviously I'm not IH but I'd be ok with allowing them in places it took team work to get to (eg. two marines can climb into a vent to get a tunnel) but not in completely unreachable overpowered places like say landing pad roof. Of course they'd be a research item again (which should happen anyway).
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited November 2013
I don't know, but after having to deal with three or so gorge tunnels in the first 3 minutes of each ns2 round I played this week, it at least needs higher cost.
It's completely rediculous that you have to kill anywhere between 3-5 tunnels at the start of each game in a 24p server. Yes the game isn't balanced for 24p but if UWE is going to support servers maxing out at 24p then they need to make sure they don't completely kill the gameplay there.
(If I recall correctly, mindraping architecture like that was possible in original UT and Duke Nukem 3d)
Possible? Yes, but it opened a whole new can of worms. There are many things that need to be considered when setting the stuff up in UT:
- The destination surface must be exactly the same size as the origin surface, otherwise you get a rendering error.
- The surface normals need to face the correct direction (like two ends of a magnet), otherwise you get a rendering error.
- You must not be able to see the warp zone entrance through the entrance again, otherwise it won't render.
- The player won't see himself through a warp zone.
- The room behind the warp zone entrance surface needs to be large enough to fit the object that is passing through, both in the entrance and the exit.
- The transition is more noticeable if you look sidewards while walking through.
- Particle effects of projectiles traveling through the warp zone will appear to stretch through the map towards the new destination for a split second.
- Line and Box traces don't go through warp zones, so instant-hit weapons don't work with them.
- The aforementioned games use BSP for level geometry and warp zones. Something that is not present in NS2's engine.
I did some testing, you really can't hit anything with hitscan, and I did notice transitions between rooms But I can actually see myself and shoot myself with projectiles. Things looked much more awesome back then when I didn't knew how stuff worked. Level architecture like this it is still awesome, as it is literally unreal. And for me it doesn't have this "fake" feel like Portal has.
So, here's how I wanted gorge tunnels to be when we had no info, but "gorge tunnel will be in game":
I wish it will be implemented like this in NS3, if it ever makes it. Tunnel slightly bent towards general direction of exit, you can exit and enter it as if it was normal room and you can see the insides from the outside, yet tunnel geometry exists in other dimension and doesn't interfere with level geometry (just two holes in two walls).
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I keep getting more and more and more perfectly reasonable spots where tunnels now dont drop. Becomes more and more useless.
Its like they saw a fly with one wing sitting on the floor, and they killed it by filling the whole room with lava.. Gets the job done, but damn the collateral damage isnt worth the hit.
Are there really so much people that like the way how tunnels are right now ?
I really enjoy playing gorge since ns1 and to build something sneaky you just have to be able to build it everywhere => thats the fun part of it ! (I even would like tunnels vertical on walls..)
If a spot is not reachable... then place a ladder there or whatever. It is just ridiculous that an ALIEN breed cannot even place a tunnel (or evolve as an egg!) on a 'not exactly even' ground or on a spot which marines cannot reach-.-. I thought thats the purpose of it..
Edit: If tunnels should be available from beginning or how much should they cost is another question.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2013
@aeronetic
No its not.
It definitely is relevant and important.
Because if you have them from the start of the round and can place them places that marines can't reach then you.....
SIGH
You know what, this is deja vu. It just keeps getting said again and again - im just going to say :
Please see the link I provided in my previous post so we can move on from factors like this being discounted by some users, and move this thread forward into a solution actually addressing the root of the issue. (hints : tech timings or separating placement from nav mesh)
I get the feeling somebody at UW keeps wanting to nerf Aliens and buff Marines. I'm aware others are feeling the same way.
It's been really annoying finding the spot for the tunnels, places which are on the ground cannot be placed because of some dofus who likes to destroy Alien strategy.
Guys, it's all fine and dandy to let some steam out of frustration but can we keep the two things of "unable to place GT on random map locations(reachable places for rines)" and "i think it should researchable" seperated. Not sure what 'changes' are we expected to see to GT's in the future, has hinted. But the thing we can do is keep reporting places that should be usable in current game, but arent working due to any reason(map, plain bug, etc).
This was a really piss poor limitation that shouldn't have made it through the pipeline. Might as well remove the extra locations on the maps where marines can't reach since there is no point in going there as an alien now.
I thought it was a dumb move to make gorge tunnels a free and starting research, but then you one up yourself and remove their functionality. That really doesn't make a damn bit of sense. I've been taking a break from this game for the month of November and probably December too. Screw the stupid tournaments...
Guys, it's all fine and dandy to let some steam out of frustration but can we keep the two things of "unable to place GT on random map locations(reachable places for rines)" and "i think it should researchable" seperated. Not sure what 'changes' are we expected to see to GT's in the future, has hinted. But the thing we can do is keep reporting places that should be usable in current game, but arent working due to any reason(map, plain bug, etc).
No.
Once again: Read my link that i provided in this thread already. We've been all over this before.
If you do not see why those two subjects are inherently intertwined, or why the placement restrictions of GT tunnels is *SOLELY DEPENDENT ON THEM BEING IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE AT THE START OF THE ROUND*... then you aren't getting why the change was made, and thus need to read that prior thread i linked to catch up.
/frustrated face
Edit:
To be very clear - The only changes that are planned right now, are subtle fixes to areas with broken nav mesh. But due to balance reasons, you will not see GT placeable in areas which feel like you should be able to - but cannot, like the top floor in plaza, or above the door in gravity control. This is because GT can only be placed in places where AI like Arcs, drifters, and MACs can travel... and they cannot travel vertically - like to the very tippity top of lava falls in refinery.
@ieptbarakat
A price increase doesn't solve inaccessible locations at the start of a round. (i assume this is the only reason you are suggesting a price change, so that you can place them wherever you want) It does help create a bit more risk though. This is primarily a timing issue. And for the timing to be adequate, you'd have to price those tunnels at some god awful insane price.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
How about this, make each tunnel entrance cost 15-20pres. It would make losing tunnels much more punishing than it is now, it would be an investment that would delay their switch to higher lifeforms, and it wouldn't require additional research by the alien commander.
(If I recall correctly, mindraping architecture like that was possible in original UT and Duke Nukem 3d)
- You must not be able to see the warp zone entrance through the entrance again, otherwise it won't render.
- The player won't see himself through a warp zone.
Hmmm, I'm positive I've seen 1+ instances of myself and was able to shoot myself in the knee (literally). Gotta install UT and dat fun map filled with warps when I'm home. You know, those memories make things look better than they were ^_^
Well, the implementation seems to have been better in UE1 than in UE2 then. I only do mapping/modding for UT2k4.
In 2k4 does your own third person model not render while you are in first person, like in most games (Mirror's Edge and Tribes Ascend use another separate first-person-only mesh for the body parts that should be visible when you look down on yourself).
There are also no stock maps that make use of warp zones (and neither ladders, because bots are awful with them and they have no proper animations).
Though there are some mods (the Unreal 1 campaign remake and Project Alpha Three used them, IIRC) that make it render from first person as well, but that causes some visual clipping in your view with some models (like Skaarj teeth). Another side effect is that it also allows you to see yourself in mirror surfaces.
@Ironhorse , one is a bug, the other by design. Just because people insist tieing those things together with their ramblins do not make those issues relevant to each other. As i said, people should simply report the bugs, and discuss about the design. As an example, you have a problem with the design. From what i can see it's fine that marines can reach them, but the cost is too cheap for aliens? Well, i disagree with that notion, but hey i'm only one guy. As i stated earlier, GT's are fine as it is in my book.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2013
@ots
As a play testing lead for this game : Neither is a bug and both are by design / intentional.
That means the only thing left is to discuss the decision of said design.
GTs are now "fine" in my book as well... except for what the very issue this thread brings up: The loss of creative / difficult to reach placements.
Also - Samusdroid isnt nearly specific enough with his prior comment either, by more places he means while he's fixed the top floor of plaza, you still cannot build chasm, gravity control, lava falls, landing pad, pipeworks, conduit, generator etc etc...
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Basically, as said before, if it doesn't have pathing under it (nav_debug) then you will NOT be able to place it there. If it has pathing then you will be able to place it most likely.
Comments
Possible? Yes, but it opened a whole new can of worms. There are many things that need to be considered when setting the stuff up in UT:
- The destination surface must be exactly the same size as the origin surface, otherwise you get a rendering error.
- The surface normals need to face the correct direction (like two ends of a magnet), otherwise you get a rendering error.
- You must not be able to see the warp zone entrance through the entrance again, otherwise it won't render.
- The player won't see himself through a warp zone.
- The room behind the warp zone entrance surface needs to be large enough to fit the object that is passing through, both in the entrance and the exit.
- The transition is more noticeable if you look sidewards while walking through.
- Particle effects of projectiles traveling through the warp zone will appear to stretch through the map towards the new destination for a split second.
- Line and Box traces don't go through warp zones, so instant-hit weapons don't work with them.
- The aforementioned games use BSP for level geometry and warp zones. Something that is not present in NS2's engine.
It was more of a gimmick. And the implementation of the stuff honestly got worse in UE2 compared to UE1 and is completely absent in UE3.
Portal uses a different technique, but the whole game is dedicated to that after all. They actually clone the object that is passing through the portal and then disable the collision of one of the duplicate objects entirely as it passes halfway into the wall while enabling it on the other object. They also had to work out how to render multiple portals that recursively see each other. And rendering the player model on the other side of the portal.
Because it's a George 'Tunnel' Not a George 'Air duct' or George 'Go through Wall blob'
The balance implications of starting with gorge tunnels may be severe, but I strongly believe that another solution should be found, rather than reverting this change. In my own personal experience, the necessity for early gorges (typically multiple ones) has been the most refreshing gameplay change made in recent months. I do not feel that relegating the class to useless status once again is an acceptable "balance" change.
@Somati
Gorges are vital enough through early, mid and lategame. Honestly there are about the same amount of Gorges around earlygame than before they made GT free. It just "forces" them evolve in hive room and you note them more.
@IronHorse Just to clarify for anyone that might be reading this thread :-h
You mean make it researchable and placable everywhere, right?
Would you put GT back at first spot in research tree and combine Babblers + Bile Bomb at third?
(Babblers (research) is the joke of the century anyway).
You forgot :
Biodome/Falls. I mean one of the "planar-est" hive of them all and it takes minutes to find a viable single location.
Furnace : you can't even drop it on the floor near the power node. It was good to be able to set the tunnel up the ladder.
I think the game is seen in a 2D fashion while it should be in 3D by developers.
I'm for :
A/ Tunnels on walls. Yes! Even if the model have to change a little to adapt it to any situation. The issues cited before (Onos & gorge etc..) is because teammates don't talk. It's a teamwork matter first. Why on walls ? Alien are opposed to marine and do the same thing by different ways. Marine PG are to be on the floor, so Alien tunnel should be different by definition. A tunnel on wall is ok following this rule of opposition.
B/ A nexus that connects every tunnel. Suggested in another posts and i like the idea. This gives a bit of strategy possibility for alien.
Actually when you loose a tunnel, things are crippled. Sometime it's just "game over" as it is a cost for a gorge. When game starts, you can't even evolve gorge, set a tunnel, and 3 hydras. You don't have enough money...
Don't care :
Research or not is not relevant as it is a strategy thing. What alien needs is more possibilities with tunnel. One way (money, research, nexus) or the other is secondary.
Really, sometimes it's as if this game is "balancing" all the fun out of itself.
Hmmm, I'm positive I've seen 1+ instances of myself and was able to shoot myself in the knee (literally). Gotta install UT and dat fun map filled with warps when I'm home. You know, those memories make things look better than they were ^_^
Obviously I'm not IH but I'd be ok with allowing them in places it took team work to get to (eg. two marines can climb into a vent to get a tunnel) but not in completely unreachable overpowered places like say landing pad roof. Of course they'd be a research item again (which should happen anyway).
I did some testing, you really can't hit anything with hitscan, and I did notice transitions between rooms
So, here's how I wanted gorge tunnels to be when we had no info, but "gorge tunnel will be in game":
I wish it will be implemented like this in NS3, if it ever makes it. Tunnel slightly bent towards general direction of exit, you can exit and enter it as if it was normal room and you can see the insides from the outside, yet tunnel geometry exists in other dimension and doesn't interfere with level geometry (just two holes in two walls).
Damn that would be pretty awesome.
Its like they saw a fly with one wing sitting on the floor, and they killed it by filling the whole room with lava.. Gets the job done, but damn the collateral damage isnt worth the hit.
Gorge Tunnel placement since 259
I really enjoy playing gorge since ns1 and to build something sneaky you just have to be able to build it everywhere => thats the fun part of it ! (I even would like tunnels vertical on walls..)
If a spot is not reachable... then place a ladder there or whatever. It is just ridiculous that an ALIEN breed cannot even place a tunnel (or evolve as an egg!) on a 'not exactly even' ground or on a spot which marines cannot reach-.-. I thought thats the purpose of it..
Edit: If tunnels should be available from beginning or how much should they cost is another question.
Just my 2cents :-)
No its not.
It definitely is relevant and important.
Because if you have them from the start of the round and can place them places that marines can't reach then you.....
SIGH
You know what, this is deja vu. It just keeps getting said again and again - im just going to say :
Please see the link I provided in my previous post so we can move on from factors like this being discounted by some users, and move this thread forward into a solution actually addressing the root of the issue. (hints : tech timings or separating placement from nav mesh)
It's been really annoying finding the spot for the tunnels, places which are on the ground cannot be placed because of some dofus who likes to destroy Alien strategy.
Word. I've been saying that ever since I couldn't rush marine CC with 30 drifters anymore. :bz
I thought it was a dumb move to make gorge tunnels a free and starting research, but then you one up yourself and remove their functionality. That really doesn't make a damn bit of sense. I've been taking a break from this game for the month of November and probably December too. Screw the stupid tournaments...
Once again: Read my link that i provided in this thread already.
We've been all over this before.
If you do not see why those two subjects are inherently intertwined, or why the placement restrictions of GT tunnels is *SOLELY DEPENDENT ON THEM BEING IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE AT THE START OF THE ROUND*... then you aren't getting why the change was made, and thus need to read that prior thread i linked to catch up.
/frustrated face
Edit:
To be very clear - The only changes that are planned right now, are subtle fixes to areas with broken nav mesh. But due to balance reasons, you will not see GT placeable in areas which feel like you should be able to - but cannot, like the top floor in plaza, or above the door in gravity control. This is because GT can only be placed in places where AI like Arcs, drifters, and MACs can travel... and they cannot travel vertically - like to the very tippity top of lava falls in refinery.
@ieptbarakat
A price increase doesn't solve inaccessible locations at the start of a round. (i assume this is the only reason you are suggesting a price change, so that you can place them wherever you want) It does help create a bit more risk though. This is primarily a timing issue. And for the timing to be adequate, you'd have to price those tunnels at some god awful insane price.
Better as in, places where there is pathing you can now place them.
Well, the implementation seems to have been better in UE1 than in UE2 then. I only do mapping/modding for UT2k4.
In 2k4 does your own third person model not render while you are in first person, like in most games (Mirror's Edge and Tribes Ascend use another separate first-person-only mesh for the body parts that should be visible when you look down on yourself).
There are also no stock maps that make use of warp zones (and neither ladders, because bots are awful with them and they have no proper animations).
Though there are some mods (the Unreal 1 campaign remake and Project Alpha Three used them, IIRC) that make it render from first person as well, but that causes some visual clipping in your view with some models (like Skaarj teeth). Another side effect is that it also allows you to see yourself in mirror surfaces.
As a play testing lead for this game : Neither is a bug and both are by design / intentional.
That means the only thing left is to discuss the decision of said design.
GTs are now "fine" in my book as well... except for what the very issue this thread brings up: The loss of creative / difficult to reach placements.
Also - Samusdroid isnt nearly specific enough with his prior comment either, by more places he means while he's fixed the top floor of plaza, you still cannot build chasm, gravity control, lava falls, landing pad, pipeworks, conduit, generator etc etc...