He means that you can make sneaky tunnels way better with phantom.
I see makes sense, but you could achieve the same result with cooperation of a couple of skulks keeping marines out of the general area by killing or distracting them. Dont get me wrong though, I find shade way more fun than shift for every lifeform (cept onos and mebe fade, if the marines are good).
Is anyone actually opposed to it going back to being researchable?
I think making it researchable, but free, is the way to go. The commander must then choose whether or not he wants to get early upgrades or gorge tunnels. It stops the typical 'go gorge on map start and drop a tunnel', too.
He means that you can make sneaky tunnels way better with phantom.
I see makes sense, but you could achieve the same result with cooperation of a couple of skulks keeping marines out of the general area by killing or distracting them. Dont get me wrong though, I find shade way more fun than shift for every lifeform (cept onos and mebe fade, if the marines are good).
What's more likely to happen in a random pub
a) several skulks start working together and (successfully) distracting marines in a certain are with the goal of covering a gorge who wants to set up a sneaky tunnel
b) a lucky phantom gorge can sneak behind enemy lines
Make it researchable for all I care but I am definitely in the tunnels everywhere group. There are plenty other ways for marines to solve the 'I cant reach it' problem.
And pre-259 it was THE hot topic for the Marine-gang in here, exactly how impossible it is to reach Gorge Tunnel until they finally get JP. "Game breaking", "Exploit",...
He says the "only useful" method is between two bases, but then states that "anywhere else" - wording that implies exclusivity and a distinction from what he just mentioned - has its downsides, which included "Marines [using] them to enter your base"... which.. can only be done by adhering to the method he just previously declared as being the "only useful" method? The very one he just made a distinction from and isn't speaking about? *scratches head*
Its really irrelevant to the discussion at hand, though, hehe, i just thought i'd say something after re reading his sentence like 5 times :-P
Ok, you have succeeded in confusing the hell out of me lol.
I guess I'll try to clarify what I meant... Base to base = relatively safe and worth building - Base to anywhere outside of a base = Easy to spot liability and a waste of resources... (since you can only place them out in the open)
I'd love to see them trade places with Babblers and be allowable in elevated positions again... but I highly doubt that will ever happen, so they really need to at least make ANYWHERE ground level allowable.
I also really like the idea of placing them on walls/angled surfaces, even if it's only down low where all players can still enter them. - Would give us more options for hiding them (like between things that stick out of the wall, or on the side of the shipping containers in landing pad) without really affecting balance in any way. - Seems like it might take alot of work for that though.
I hope in NS3 they'd do tunnels Portal™-like. So it's on the wall and you can see the insides and what's on the other side and it's still short tunnel that connects two distant locations.
(If I recall correctly, mindraping architecture like that was possible in original UT and Duke Nukem 3d)
I'm still of the opinion that it should be (should have been) fixed via the mappers. Refinery being the most common issue still only had 3-4 un reachable spots that would have required adding 3-4 little props to fix.
The heavy handed fix implemented leaves much to be desired. Removing "abusive" or "OP" positions at the expense of legit sneaky positions is short sighted.
Hopefully UWE will treat this as a bandaid and fix the geometry level by level... Then remove the bandaid and allow the fun to resume.
@ironhorse nope... So first off I do not see any downside to tunnels, I have yet to see a rine push through a tunnel succeed against any competent aliens. I am aware of all the benifts from the tunnels.... The only possible downside is 18p-res for the tunnel plus you might as well drop 3 hydras, so 9+18=a perms gorge. And gorges are good so that's ok... Clearly tunnels are very powerful.
However, utilizing a tunnel is very different then PG for marines. When you factor in no beacon, needing to evolve upgrade on spawn, tunnel transit time, and getting to the right tunnel... Responding to a tunnel is far from instantaneous leaving rines with time to kill it...
PG are far superior to GT in every-way and they are available pretty damn fast if you go that route... GT are good for 3 things, infestation, skulks, gorges...
In my experience GT help the better team win faster, the crapy team try to get a base rush win, and the evenly matched teams fight it out...
All that being said I would not be against tunnels being delayed (add GT to bio 1 with babblers)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@mad_max
I don't think you are factoring in the asymmetrical setup of this game (and thus the balance differences) when comparing PGs and GTs. They are not, and should not, be equal in use, nor access.
The "mobile team" should not be able to further their mobility so dramatically, faster than the "ranged team" can .. Who btw use PGs to make up for their lack of mobility compared to aliens standard mobility. (this was done years prior before GTs ever came into existence)
This is why you are okay with GTs being delayed.. Because they don't need tunnels that early.
At best it's a distraction and time consumer for the marine team - drawing them away from important expansion and offensive actions, in order to kill that crossroads tunnel. Putting them on the back foot and /or behind schedule (and a singular alien pres loss of 26 at most .. Big whoop)
At worst, it provides an incredible ability to control the map, (the point of the game) starting from the first minute in a round, with marines unable to recover from such a strong, early advantage.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@_INTER_ and everyone else.
YES it was a huge debate back then. People did not agree in the slightest.
Yet my points still stand.
* a high up and/or vent tunnel can not be reached by all lifeforms and for many lifeforms its much harder to reach. GL shoving a onos in that vent while his gorge fled the scene, forgetting the onos is to fat.
* oh you got a tunnel high up on a railing in warehouse? see half the skulks fail to reach it in good time and many pub fades miss blink. So comp players can do it faster? Still excluded all the onos & gorges if its up that high.
* How OFTEN do you see a marine actually bother to USE the tunnel? Really.. how often in %?
* marines can reach a lot of vents alone.. rine climbing is quite possible. MANY vents are reachable with added manpower.
* grades are researched pretty fast. Yes it wont kill a tunnel (unless those are nerfed) but it will stop any skulk or lerk coming out. And we already established its less likely larger lifeforms will crawl out a vent. (although fade/gorge can).
* GL and JP exists.. Yes, late tech. Also smart play exists.. Especially in comp play its 1 gorge for 1 tunnel. A tunnel in a vent means easy lockdown for marines on the rest of the map while you KNOW aliens are reinforced in that part of the map. Which is easily blocked of becauise vent exists are small, and known.
Never ever saw a problem with it.. But as its not aim/standard skill many folk cry murder with a few odd placed tunnels.
What's more likely to happen in a random pub
a) several skulks start working together and (successfully) distracting marines in a certain are with the goal of covering a gorge who wants to set up a sneaky tunnel
b) a lucky phantom gorge can sneak behind enemy lines
?
Well the first certainly wont if theyre all butthurt over not having cele!
What's more likely to happen in a random pub
a) several skulks start working together and (successfully) distracting marines in a certain are with the goal of covering a gorge who wants to set up a sneaky tunnel
b) a lucky phantom gorge can sneak behind enemy lines
?
Well the first certainly wont if theyre all butthurt over not having cele!
You mean because they can't utilize Aura or Phantom properly?
Sneaking a tunnel is not supposed to be easy. Thats just how it is. The primary purpose of tunnels is to move between areas controlled by your team. Other things you do with the tunnel is up to you.
Everyone here is missing the point. Marines do have viable counters for this. The problem is, attempting to research those counters (ARCs, GLs, Jetpacks) basically requires marines to abandon any other tech research since they need to dump ALL their pres into countering a single exploitative gorge tunnel.
I cannot fathom how people are still defending this as balanced in the slightest.
@DC_Darkling It's not about getting back INTO the tunnel, it's about getting out of base far into enemy territory every time you spawn and knowing the marines can't do shit about it until at LEAST an AA. Who cares if some skulks die trying to get back to the tunnel if those same skulks respawn run behind enemy lines and kill 2 res nodes.
It's gotten easier to wield up a sneaky PG than a sneaky GT (e.g. Mineshaft North Tunnel, Docking Departure, Veil anywhere, ...). The placement of PG is now less restrictive than for GT.
As it stands, marines can reach any tunnel made. So it's an investment from alien side, you need to defend it as well. Having it in unreachable places for marines makes it something the alien team does not need to use any real effort to, but marines will need to stand in guard so the aliens wont get unreasonable advantage from it.
It's a simple comparison of counterability. In any game, you should be able to counter a move by the other team with a mechanic inside that game.
I like the GT as it is now, nothing wrong with it. It's delightful feature that promotes innovative strategies from alien team, keeps the game fresh. No one wants to play a game where you have to do predetermined path of sequences, every time.
@Ots Just that it 1) is a pain to place a GT at a meaningful place as a Gorge, 2) The team does not give a damn if a GT goes down as it is pres and not tres, 3) The GT can get shot from afar and goes down fast (also Arc), it's hard to defend if there are no other structures around it. Those that try to defend it are shot on the spot when passing through.
The GT is now inferior in everything compared to PG. It can only function well between bases for Skulks / Gorges or maintain infestation in Veil - Nanogrid.
It's descending down the ladder for additional but barely useful features. Until it will join the rank of Babblers, Ink, Webs, Hallucination, Craig Healing, ...
Ots post pretty much summarizes how I feel about the current tunnel.
With that being said, OP did have a point. I am fairly certain that the tunnels are now linked to the nav mesh which restricts certain possible tunnel locations. As long as the tunnels stay in marine accessible locations, I am fine. I'm sure the devs could change it but I personally would prefer them to continue working on other features.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Ok I can see the point there, although if its a vent system or something I still believe mines can go a long way.
But ok, I can sort of see it so ill let it rest.
Which leaves us to the point we have now. If we restrict it like its now it can not be placed in many many many MANY places it should be able to be placed. AND if you can not place it, it STILL shows green. /rediculous)
reverting the change would allow more of the weird tunnels so many folk dislike.
Makes me wonder how well GTs as a whole were considered before being implemented. Ah well..
This is what happens when you get a programmer to fix a mapping problem.
I agree, it's probably a texture based fix. I also really dislike how they handled it. The OP named a few spots but there are tons more that where reachable by marines and are not reachable anymore. I think they just need to make invisible brushes that flag the area as no gorge tunnel allowed. I agree that a place shouldn't be able to have a tunnel if marines can't reach it but the fix UWE did is a sloppy one.
Also i think some more vents should be reachable. Like in veil, the one between overlook and skylight. But instead of giving acces from skylight like it was before, the acces should be from overlook so it takes a lot longer.
Comments
I see makes sense, but you could achieve the same result with cooperation of a couple of skulks keeping marines out of the general area by killing or distracting them. Dont get me wrong though, I find shade way more fun than shift for every lifeform (cept onos and mebe fade, if the marines are good).
Yes. Too many commanders used to skip it till late game for other upgrades, kind of like grenades currently for marines.
I think making it researchable, but free, is the way to go. The commander must then choose whether or not he wants to get early upgrades or gorge tunnels. It stops the typical 'go gorge on map start and drop a tunnel', too.
What's more likely to happen in a random pub
a) several skulks start working together and (successfully) distracting marines in a certain are with the goal of covering a gorge who wants to set up a sneaky tunnel
b) a lucky phantom gorge can sneak behind enemy lines
?
^
Ok, you have succeeded in confusing the hell out of me lol.
I guess I'll try to clarify what I meant... Base to base = relatively safe and worth building - Base to anywhere outside of a base = Easy to spot liability and a waste of resources... (since you can only place them out in the open)
I'd love to see them trade places with Babblers and be allowable in elevated positions again... but I highly doubt that will ever happen, so they really need to at least make ANYWHERE ground level allowable.
I also really like the idea of placing them on walls/angled surfaces, even if it's only down low where all players can still enter them. - Would give us more options for hiding them (like between things that stick out of the wall, or on the side of the shipping containers in landing pad) without really affecting balance in any way. - Seems like it might take alot of work for that though.
(If I recall correctly, mindraping architecture like that was possible in original UT and Duke Nukem 3d)
The heavy handed fix implemented leaves much to be desired. Removing "abusive" or "OP" positions at the expense of legit sneaky positions is short sighted.
Hopefully UWE will treat this as a bandaid and fix the geometry level by level... Then remove the bandaid and allow the fun to resume.
So you don't mind a one minute gorge tunnel in regards to balance, eh?
However, utilizing a tunnel is very different then PG for marines. When you factor in no beacon, needing to evolve upgrade on spawn, tunnel transit time, and getting to the right tunnel... Responding to a tunnel is far from instantaneous leaving rines with time to kill it...
PG are far superior to GT in every-way and they are available pretty damn fast if you go that route... GT are good for 3 things, infestation, skulks, gorges...
In my experience GT help the better team win faster, the crapy team try to get a base rush win, and the evenly matched teams fight it out...
All that being said I would not be against tunnels being delayed (add GT to bio 1 with babblers)
I don't think you are factoring in the asymmetrical setup of this game (and thus the balance differences) when comparing PGs and GTs. They are not, and should not, be equal in use, nor access.
The "mobile team" should not be able to further their mobility so dramatically, faster than the "ranged team" can .. Who btw use PGs to make up for their lack of mobility compared to aliens standard mobility. (this was done years prior before GTs ever came into existence)
This is why you are okay with GTs being delayed.. Because they don't need tunnels that early.
At best it's a distraction and time consumer for the marine team - drawing them away from important expansion and offensive actions, in order to kill that crossroads tunnel. Putting them on the back foot and /or behind schedule (and a singular alien pres loss of 26 at most .. Big whoop)
At worst, it provides an incredible ability to control the map, (the point of the game) starting from the first minute in a round, with marines unable to recover from such a strong, early advantage.
Either way.. Makes no sense to me.
YES it was a huge debate back then. People did not agree in the slightest.
Yet my points still stand.
* a high up and/or vent tunnel can not be reached by all lifeforms and for many lifeforms its much harder to reach. GL shoving a onos in that vent while his gorge fled the scene, forgetting the onos is to fat.
* oh you got a tunnel high up on a railing in warehouse? see half the skulks fail to reach it in good time and many pub fades miss blink. So comp players can do it faster? Still excluded all the onos & gorges if its up that high.
* How OFTEN do you see a marine actually bother to USE the tunnel? Really.. how often in %?
* marines can reach a lot of vents alone.. rine climbing is quite possible. MANY vents are reachable with added manpower.
* grades are researched pretty fast. Yes it wont kill a tunnel (unless those are nerfed) but it will stop any skulk or lerk coming out. And we already established its less likely larger lifeforms will crawl out a vent. (although fade/gorge can).
* GL and JP exists.. Yes, late tech. Also smart play exists.. Especially in comp play its 1 gorge for 1 tunnel. A tunnel in a vent means easy lockdown for marines on the rest of the map while you KNOW aliens are reinforced in that part of the map. Which is easily blocked of becauise vent exists are small, and known.
Never ever saw a problem with it.. But as its not aim/standard skill many folk cry murder with a few odd placed tunnels.
You mean because they can't utilize Aura or Phantom properly?
*looks at @Ironhorse* yes youuuuu. :P
Here's the thread
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2161814/#Comment_2161814
It's a simple comparison of counterability. In any game, you should be able to counter a move by the other team with a mechanic inside that game.
I like the GT as it is now, nothing wrong with it. It's delightful feature that promotes innovative strategies from alien team, keeps the game fresh. No one wants to play a game where you have to do predetermined path of sequences, every time.
The GT is now inferior in everything compared to PG. It can only function well between bases for Skulks / Gorges or maintain infestation in Veil - Nanogrid.
It's descending down the ladder for additional but barely useful features. Until it will join the rank of Babblers, Ink, Webs, Hallucination, Craig Healing, ...
I disagree on the grounds that it does not require infestation to be built; it supplies it's own.
Now, if it required infestation, you would be correct. If this has changed recently, I retract my statement.
With that being said, OP did have a point. I am fairly certain that the tunnels are now linked to the nav mesh which restricts certain possible tunnel locations. As long as the tunnels stay in marine accessible locations, I am fine. I'm sure the devs could change it but I personally would prefer them to continue working on other features.
But ok, I can sort of see it so ill let it rest.
Which leaves us to the point we have now. If we restrict it like its now it can not be placed in many many many MANY places it should be able to be placed. AND if you can not place it, it STILL shows green. /rediculous)
reverting the change would allow more of the weird tunnels so many folk dislike.
Makes me wonder how well GTs as a whole were considered before being implemented. Ah well..
I agree, it's probably a texture based fix. I also really dislike how they handled it. The OP named a few spots but there are tons more that where reachable by marines and are not reachable anymore. I think they just need to make invisible brushes that flag the area as no gorge tunnel allowed. I agree that a place shouldn't be able to have a tunnel if marines can't reach it but the fix UWE did is a sloppy one.
Also i think some more vents should be reachable. Like in veil, the one between overlook and skylight. But instead of giving acces from skylight like it was before, the acces should be from overlook so it takes a lot longer.