[Mod] [TRS] Experimental Balance [Changed]
catolm
Norway Join Date: 2013-10-31 Member: 188909Members, Reinforced - Silver
Norway Join Date: 2013-10-31 Member: 188909Members, Reinforced - Silver
The Real Shit
. Experimental Balance
.. Built on Build. 260
by. Chariot
Update: Update: 30. November 2013 - 23:50 UTC
This is a server mod: BCFF780
Link: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=198178688
I have made my decision regarding this. I will be developing the mod as a ObO-basis (One by One).
This means I will make one change at a time; the change will be voted upon by those who comment on this thread.
Each update will have a _minimum_ of 3 day lifetime before it can be voted upon to keep, change or remove.
Other suggestions during the grace period will be set in a regular "prioritized queue" based on the popularity of the idea.
No change will be added without some yay's for it in this thread.
Due to the feedback (both positive, negative, usefull and useless) I have taken it upon myself to decide this first change.
For tidyness: Please write "IDEA" in a post which is an idea and not a comment/discussion and use the Disagree, Agree-function for Idea-posts.
§1: Biomass Requirement for Web from 7 to 6
§2: Exosuit Claw/Punch Damage from 30 to 40 and DamageType from Structural to Puncture.
... Reason for Puncture instead of Structural is to make soloing an Exo more scary for a Skulk and to not double the structural damage. In addition this also makes Carapace a good choice, because armor will still take away 2 points of damage at the cost of 1 damage point. In other words, stronger in melee vs low armored foes.
§3: Jetpack Fuel Usage Increased from 0.23 to 0.28 and Jetpack Refuel Delay Increased from 0.4s to 0.6s.
... This also has a funny effect of allowing you to "bunny jump" with the jetpack when it's empty.
Ps. while update states PENDING the latest update has not yet been implemented.
Cheers. Chariot
Currently Discussed Topics
Orignal Post (Discontinued 27. November 2013)
. Experimental Balance
.. Built on Build. 260
by. Chariot
Update: Update: 30. November 2013 - 23:50 UTC
This is a server mod: BCFF780
Link: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=198178688
I have made my decision regarding this. I will be developing the mod as a ObO-basis (One by One).
This means I will make one change at a time; the change will be voted upon by those who comment on this thread.
Each update will have a _minimum_ of 3 day lifetime before it can be voted upon to keep, change or remove.
Other suggestions during the grace period will be set in a regular "prioritized queue" based on the popularity of the idea.
No change will be added without some yay's for it in this thread.
Due to the feedback (both positive, negative, usefull and useless) I have taken it upon myself to decide this first change.
For tidyness: Please write "IDEA" in a post which is an idea and not a comment/discussion and use the Disagree, Agree-function for Idea-posts.
§1: Biomass Requirement for Web from 7 to 6
§2: Exosuit Claw/Punch Damage from 30 to 40 and DamageType from Structural to Puncture.
... Reason for Puncture instead of Structural is to make soloing an Exo more scary for a Skulk and to not double the structural damage. In addition this also makes Carapace a good choice, because armor will still take away 2 points of damage at the cost of 1 damage point. In other words, stronger in melee vs low armored foes.
§3: Jetpack Fuel Usage Increased from 0.23 to 0.28 and Jetpack Refuel Delay Increased from 0.4s to 0.6s.
... This also has a funny effect of allowing you to "bunny jump" with the jetpack when it's empty.
Ps. while update states PENDING the latest update has not yet been implemented.
Cheers. Chariot
Currently Discussed Topics
§4 Biomass Requirement for Gorge Tunnel from 0 to 2
§5 Non-linear Resource Gathering
Orignal Post (Discontinued 27. November 2013)
So I just released a mod worked on for like an hour to hopefully test a couple of balancing issues and let the community get their saying and possibly test whatever balance issue that needs tweaking. Therefore I also open this thread here, to get your comments and ideas below. I will be posting the mod description and the workshop link to it below.
Cheers. Chariot
Updated: 26.November 2013 - 02:46 ZULU.
Link: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=198178688
The Real Shit
. Experimental Balance Mod
.. Built on Build. 260
This is a server mod: BCFF780
by. Chariot
The meaning of this mod is for servers to try find the best possible balance for public server games.
I wish that this should give the marines a slightly better chance to win late game (from today's 40%) to a hopefully 50/50 chance throughout the game.
It also will provide a slightly easier way for aliens to protect themselves against early marine rushes.
The goal is 50/50 and 30 min+ rounds if teams are even throughout the entire game.
- I will be taking all comments into consideration and if decent they might be tested, to see if they work or not.
Changes to Game
. Alien
.. Biomass Req: Web from 7 to 6. - [Kept: Liked]
.. Biomass Req: Leap from 4 to 3. - [Change: Research Cost from 20 to 40]
.. Biomass Req: Gorge Tunnel from 0 to 2. - [Kept: Fairness, Alien quicker then Marine and they must wait for phase]
.. Bile Bomb: Splash Range from 6 to 5 meter (Like NS1). - [Kept]
.. Onos: Base Friction from 3 to 4. - [Kept]
// Removed due to feedback: Biomass Req: Charge from 3 to 4.
// Removed due to feedback: Whip Ranged Damage: -15%.
. Marine
.. Weapon Research 3 Cost from 40 to 35. - [Changed: 30 to 35]
.. Armor Research 3 Cost from 40 to 35. - [Changed: 30 to 35]
.. Exosuit: Base Armor from 280 to 300. - [Changed: 350 to 300]
.. Exosuit: Slightly Decreased Movement Speed. - [Walk Speed: 3.7 to 3.2]
.. Exosuit: Thruster Duration Increased from 1.5 to 2.0 - [New]
.. Marine: Movement Speed -5%. - [Kept: Ease the Alien learning-curve for new players]
// Removed due to feedback: Advanced Armory Upgrade Cost from 30 to 25.
// Removed due to feedback: Shotgun Cost from 20 to 15.
// Removed due to feedback: Grenade Launcher Cost from 15 to 20.
Comments
You think every Marine in pub is playing this way?
These are the worst changes i ever saw, really.
What is Onos friction?
I think it would be nice to make additional changes that increase the length of mid and early game?
The onos friction should give it slightly better mobility in such as turning rate, breaking etc.
Revert shotgun cost, add power, ammo and slow it down? I like the idea personally atleast; higher power as in same pellet damage, just more pellets, agree? Whip thingie? Yeh I have no idea about that one, just a friend who thought they did a bit too much, but if they don't sure, easypeasy to revert them too
Cheers. Chariot
. Alien
.. Biomass Req: Web from 7 to 6.
Yes please, webs are almost never used as is.
.. Biomass Req: Leap from 4 to 3.
Early leap is just way too overpowered while it does help the comeback potential of aliens the flipside of having leap in potentially under 7min is scary. Leap rush openings would become very strong.
.. Biomass Req: Charge from 3 to 4.
This makes an Onos little more than a very loud target on 1 hive, severely hampers ability to retake push for a second hive or retake one.
.. Biomass Req: Gorge Tunnel from 0 to 2.
Not sure on this one, maybe if all the navmesh issues with gorge tunnels not being able to be placed in some nooks/crannies that they should be able to (dark corner in smelting etc.) get sorted out sure. I haven't seen too many issues with the early tunnels since they were restricted to navmesh. I can't think of any exploitative behavior short from spamming tunnels all over the map.
.. Bile Bomb: Splash Range from 6 to 5 meter (Like NS1).
Seems small enough to completely nerf bile bomb but I think bile bomb is in an OK place after its last beating with the nerf bat
.. Whip Ranged Damage: -15%.
Same here whips usability just took a hit (their crag support healing did too) need to play some more 260 before I can really see myself agreeing to this
.. Onos: Base Friction from 3 to 4.
Would have to see how this plays out.
. Marine
.. Advanced Armory Upgrade Cost from 30 to 25.
Based on the other tweaks here this seems like a change to get the now super powered Exo-Suits out just a tad faster (not saying that was your intention just that is the likely result)
.. Shotgun Cost from 20 to 15.
Already the most used burst damage weapon in the game and currently capable of ripping fades and lerks apart in 1-2 shots (w/ some chip damage) a 5 P.res redcution would have to come with at least some small redcution to the shotgun's power.
.. Grenade Launcher Cost from 15 to 20.
I don't really see the point of this? The GL is a niche weapon that tends to get overused sometimes in pubs yes, which is annoying but certainly not effective (though it may get the illusion of being effective since when 4-5 marines are running around with gl/jp combo the game is already over).
.. Weapon Research 3 Cost from 40 to 30.
.. Armor Research 3 Cost from 40 to 30.
This is a HUGE reduction in cost for upgrades that are (practically) unable to be lost, right now the res starved commander has to pick between W3 or A3 or sometimes sacrifice giving field support to get them, I could see maybe 35 each here to at least differentiate them from W2/A2
.. Exosuit: Base Armor from 280 to 350.
.. Exosuit: Slightly Decreased Movement Speed.
Really would need an actual number of the movement speed change here but to be honest this gives me the impression of a very overpowered exo being implemented to cater to ramb-exos. Exo suits as is should always be chained to a marine squad to maximize their effectiveness. Also since exos can currently return to base with a beacon the hit to their mobility is mostly negated as they are at far less risk of being stranded/exposed. I can see this resulting in 5+ exo death squads again.
.. Marine: Movement Speed -5%.
I don't know where you are going with this one? Marine movement speed seems ok to me. Are you trying to slow early expansion speed here?
I'd suggest reading some of the (many) discussion of balance that have occurred over the past month or two as many of the changes you have implemented have been among the most widely unaccepted suggestions around. I know some things are much different in practice than on paper but the current iteration you have here is not something that I personally would be willing to even try.
That being said personally I am not in favor of any mod's that affect gameplay, be it a public server mod or a competitive server mod I do not like segregation. But it would be nice if the community actually put into practice some of the changes that are suggested on the forums so that some evidence of their effectiveness can actually be determined and then implemented into the base game as required. Not sure which of the two you are going for here but it would be nice to get some empirical data on some of the changes members of the community want to see.
EDIT: At least you're making an effort though. While many of these changes are stupid, no suggested changes are perfect the first time. Take feed back and modify it and you might actually get something decent.
Cheers. Chariot
Answers to your feedback (thanks for it).
. Web: Agreed.
. Leap: Ain't that early, but I see the danger of having it before 7 minutes. Leap requires leap upgrade 20 res (can be changed), and 3 biomass here..which is another 50 res. So getting it requires 70 res used on it, is this plausible before the 7 minute mark if so, could it be countered by making the leap cost 30 res?
. Onos Charge back to Bio3: I see your point and agree 100%
. Bile Bomb is still immensly powerfull (My favorite class to play is the Gorge, and I can tell you, as long as I get into base, I destroy so much it's insane..very easy in combination with Phantom). The 6 to 5 meter radius is not much of a change, but it might just be the little touch it needs.
. Whips Ranged Damage: Sure, personally I like them like this and without that. So this can be reverted. Agreed.
. Onos Base Friction from 3 to 4: Yep, this is something that needs to be tested over time. Impossible to say the impact it actually has on the balance. Seems to add more "punch" to the feel of the Onos though.
. Advanced Armory Cost 30 to 25: Not big of a change, I thought this would just make it a little more common as a tactically placed armory (with the increased risk of loosing it as well, those tactical armories tend to be destroyed rather often). I would not mind having it back to 30, but I think 25 is good, except if it is like you say a shortcut to the Exo.
. Shotgun Cost downed: I did this to see more shotties (easy to lose) together with the GL increase to see less gl's. Might it be better to decrease the shotguns damage or amount of pellets instead of reverting or is 20 res a good cost for it?
. GL cost upped. This was intended with downed shotgun cost to become less frequent. The entire reason for it. (Less JP GL'ers). If people still think this is stupid, sure let it back down to 15.
. Weapon/Armor 3 cost: 30..might be too little, might not be, not sure, but 35 would be ok for me too
. Exo changes, to make it slightly more durable against a single skulk (as it is right now an exo is very easy to take out as a single skulk). It's slowed down by like 10% in movement and got slightly more armor, this a bad thing? Need more input here. Atleast I am never ever afraid of exo's if I play a skulk and I am not a very good player.
. Marine Movement Speed -5%: The entire reason for this change is to combat the annoyance I've heard from one of my friends in the start of every game. It seems like the skulk and the marine run at the exact same speed at the start, just to make it feel like the skulk is a bit quicker when they run side by side I dropped the marine run speed by 5%. Good or bad?
And to answer your last question. I intend for this mod to generate emperical data and a space to experiment on changes the community thinks of and see if and how they work in game. I will put this mod on my server when my hosts get back up late this week. However if there are servers that actually want to run this mod for the other reason you mentioned that is also fine by me, but I will edit the mod to test and try what the community thinks from time to time.
Cheers. Chariot
No I meant each pellet does more damage. This is easier to change and gives same effect. It also gives a strong boundary with range. (not sure how to explain with words)
Also the armor/weapon cost reduction means the game will get to late game even quicker and imo I think its bad idea.
Maybe slightly lower biles damage to an exo but dont change how it interacts with structure? This means that bile bombs are still effective defensively against exos but not as good offensively against exos.
Also, I think onos friction should stay the same as onos should not be putting itself in situation where it is in critical danger. One skill needed for onos is pre-planning and knowing when to escape.
This post has so much detail, so elaborate.
The exo thing you are talking about here is what is already implemented. Slower and more sturdy exo's.
Onos Friction stuff is really more of a how it feels when it's played thing, must be tested to yay or nay it
Cheers. Chariot
Not gonna explain it now cause I explained it many times so if you want u can look it up.
PS. I havn't made comments on the changes, as I am a casual pubber that really enjoy the game.
Also just so I feel like I actually contributed something positive instead of just arguing against changes I think the focus should be more on early game than mid/end game since many games are won or lost in the early game and if the early game is kept closer it should in theory result in more competitive (FUN!) games or at least both teams will have a decent chance at winning for a longer portion of the game.
@crymeariver You did give some very good input, I will be changing lots based on your feedback here, but I will also take @collitic 's views into consideration and see if there is a way I can please you both
A quick question before I decide. If to keep the Leap at Biomass 3 (to make a comeback easier), increase it's research cost from 20 to 30, 40 or even more? To make it impossible doing a early game leap rush. Remember 50 res into biomass is required for this as well. The old minimum price for this was 40 (hive) 20+20 (extra biomass) + 20 research = 100. Making it require 50 research points and biomass 3 would give it the same cost then.
Cheers. Chariot
Right now it requires the following at minimum:
Biomass 1 at hive #1 + Hive #2 + Biomass 1 at hive #2 (biomass 2 at hive # 1 can possible reduce time) + whip + skulk life form upgrade = leap
or
20 + 40 + 20(30) + 10 + 20 = 110 (120)
at biomass 3 it would require:
BM 1 + BM 2 + whip + Skulk upgrade = leap
20 + 30 + 10 + 20 = 80
30 T.res really isn't all that huge mid-late game but early game it is very important which means there are two very important factors to consider:
1. Time taken to research leap (as compared to marine tech available at the time of its completion)
2. Total cost of researching leap (as compared to other alien tech paths)
The solution does not always have to be: x is strong so make it weaker/more expensive.
An ability with the impact of leap really needs more consideration than just "make it cost x" something could be done to marines to soften the blow for example. The more in depth that you get into balance the more complicated it all becomes and no one person is going to ever be able to do it. With the public beta test mod Sewlek ran no longer active (I think) having community members actively seeking input from other members of the community and actually TESTING possible changes to the game is a damn good idea even if some of the initial ideas are off target. I hope this conversation stays constructive unlike the throngs of previous threads re: balance lately.
Thank you for that input. You are very right about the gameplay impact of leap is the most important factor of all. It is the trumph factor, which is why it needs to be tested. Yes I think having a constructive ideas and testing thread/mod is a good idea too which I why I did this.
The mod just updated based on these feedbacks, original post updated right now! Btw, updates need some time apart, so after the initial "cleanup" each change needs to live for some time, to give the server(s) time to actually run and test each version.
Cheers. Chariot
Anyway, remember that NS2 stats is not all games, only a few servers and asking Ironhorse or others for official records might be a good idea?
Lastly, if you can handle it, please try an AU or NZ server. We play very differently to people in Europe (I play with both, its true) and if you try it, see what you think.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/133158/another-constructive-way-to-make-ns2-fun-again
And this is the only guy here that's put up an agree on your initial post. That's gotta tell ya somethin'.
Now, I don't want to dissuade you from modifying the game to how you see fit. Please, do continue to make changes, play around, and continue to learn and grow. (And good god most importantly, have fun playtesting!) But, Chariot, these changes are... Well, astonishing, to say the least. Please, please read up on why NS2's costs and balances are the way they are. New players need to learn from the base game, not a modified variant.
Again, I like what you're doing, but start small. Don't radically change the game "to make things easier." Because the reality is, you're making things significantly harder. Especially for newer players. And be sure to document your changes!
Start here, http://wiki.unknownworlds.com/ns2/Main_Page
Although, allow me to edit and say that CryMeARiver is doing an excellent job explaining these changes and helping you out. I'll keep an eye on this thread to see what comes of it.
Why?
Cause we have 1500hr premium division players playing against 10 hr rookies.
You can give these rookies free shotguns with doubled damage and they wouldnt had a chance.
Its sad, but thats the way it is atm.
Give these shotguns to the premium division players and they are raping a alienteam alone.
You cannot balance a game only on your point of view. Thats why 99% of the "custom balance mods" are fail.
If you die too much as exo, your gamestyle is wrong or you didnt have enough skill.
But its easy to say "I played CS for 6 years and die to much as exo, the Exo is to weak" instead of accepting the fact that you playing it wrong.
what's the problem your addressing?
how will these changes solve it?
how will these changes impact other areas?
use as few changes as possible to find a solution. "Balance on pub servers" isn't an actionable problem.
Consistency blocked lel.