Crushak nailed it, skulks are extremely perishable in pubs, it's not like they execute a well coordinated ambush, get healed by a gorge and move to a next nearby objective. Due to pub chaos, skulks die constantly, and that means they spend most of the time running from hive to the front lines, and no other upgrade than celerity improves that.
That said, even in pubs, I am more and more convinced phantom is extremely powerful early on skulks, I have very satisfying phantom skulk play, killing marines who searched the room, missed me and then went to light up their little welders. I don't know if it's possible to survive on a ceiling in plain sight like that with better players, probably not, but this means pubbers should try phantom more often.
Shade may be fun and viable first with good players, sure, but it doesn't really address the issue that (even in this thread) there are extremely frequent sentiments that "X" cannot be played without celerity/adrenaline, and that if you have two hives one MUST be shift. That's just horrible balancing IMO.
Shade may be fun and viable first with good players, sure, but it doesn't really address the issue that (even in this thread) there are extremely frequent sentiments that "X" cannot be played without celerity/adrenaline, and that if you have two hives one MUST be shift. That's just horrible balancing IMO.
The issue really is once mid game hits it revolves around your higher lifeforms staying alive, and without shift and craig hive, it makes it much harder than it should be, especially shift. Shade hives don't really benefit higher lifeforms as much, sure they're nice, but shift and craig are more or less necessities.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
@HeatSurge The abilities granted by a Shade hive are very passive (Phantom and Aura), so whilst a good player can make use of it in more situations (ie. being silent to sneak at full speed, or Lerk Aura to spike the weak marine), a bad player can't grasp the many situations the game throws up and will drop like flies once they encounter a marine by either moving too soon when they have Phantom, or not having the skill to take down the weakest in a group of marines. Whilst the benefits of a Crag and Shift hive is active, and will benefit all players regardless of skill (they grant the lifeform a hard buff - eg. Cara for armor or cele for speed). It is then less situational dependent, so it would seem more useful in pubs. I am not sure how you can make a shade more viable in pubs without disturbing the balance in Comp. Or, put it another way, what ever we put in Comps, won't work as well in pubs as the skill difference is often very large (and there are more players / team).
I think Cannon Fodder hit it on the head. Veil provides the traits with require a lot more thinking to use. Anything with the Shell is applied instantly, and the Spur will improve the greenest of Skulks by increasing their mobility, or allowing them to deal more damage to extractors without worry of running out of energy. Furthermore, it's far too delicate to change.
Another major consideration in choosing a hive is the abilities it grants their specific structures. The Shift, the Craig, and the Shade. The Craig's heal-wave is nerfed to the point where I have no idea why I still use it. The Shade's ink is very situational, and extremely defensive. Not to mention, obscure. "Ink Blocks Arc's? WAT?!" The Shift's highly useful Echo just plain outranks the other two. Load up some whips as if the thing's a bloody revolver and pop them on unsuspecting Marines, or in the base. Or build two shades, two craigs, and you've got two instant firebases for the aliens to pop out of nowhere. (Not to mention, a perfect complement to that gorge tunnel.) Even if the other two are free, I'd still do Spur/Shift hive hands down.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
@BeerTent. Thanks for the compliment. I also don't think nerfing one upgrade to make the other viable is NOT a good way to go (as suggested by HeatSurge on page 1). Whilst Comp players can probably get around the nerfs by upping their skill level, the pub gamer just won't appreciate the need to make the these changes. I know I wont. Seem like every time a strategy is used often (because it works) we try to limit its use (and hence the game's mechanics) because a certain aspect of it is considered OP. Ofcourse its bloody OP, because it works the best, thats why we use it all the time. I am not playing to lose. Having 2/3 hiving openings viable is pretty good imho.
I don't have problems with something used often - its sort of like the build order of the day in SC2, and if someone does something different 1/10 games, I ll still have fun. In a pub setting, I am happy to play a balanced game (non-team stacked), and the nuisance of having a viable hive opening choice isn't really something I think about much.
tl:dr: Shift open (most often used), Crag open also used alot, Shade (I always say for funsies - not really going to win this one, but its fun to drop on marines and make them poop their pants until they get A1/W1). As long as you are playing and having fun, it doesn't matter.
If something is used often, it's obviously too OP, or too easy. All choices must be fairly equally viable, otherwise you're not playing a game - you're watching a movie while pressing buttons. It's like playing an easy "solved" game like tic-tac-toe. No excitement, you know if you don't do X, you lose (ceteris paribus which is never the case in ns2 due to ståkks but that's a whole different discussion), simple as that.
Balancing shouldn't be about removing things which work well in the game, it should be about making different things work fairly equally well.
And no, "shade for funsies until A1/W1" doesn't really cut it for me. If that works for UWE, I would rather it be called "funsies" instead of "shade." Shade is a third of the alien com game, so a third of the alien com game is not functional at the moment. For me, it's as simple as that.
If something is used often, it's obviously too OP, or too easy. All choices must be fairly equally viable, otherwise you're not playing a game
Yes and No.
You can take a team of ordinary players and have them play against each other and a fade would be stomped on. The skill-floor is too high for an ordinary player to achieve an average result, however go to the next level (div 1/2) players and fades rape. Go up another level to premier where marines regularly pull of full meat shots and fades are quite weak again.
Sometimes a class, ability or upgrade can change back and forth from underpowered to overpowered multiple times as you transgress through the skill brackets.
Additionally, buffing shade/crag/shift hive results in 2nd tier aliens strength being amplified. Shade is in a good spot at the moment, although not a 1st hive choice it is a very strong complimentary 2nd hive ability providing aura and silence.
In my experience, mechanics or upgrades can be completely unused / underutilized until an innovation of play is developed at the premier level of the game (Example 1: Babblers were OP, yet untouched for months) (Example 2: Strength and power of mucous was not discovered during BT / 250, but discovered months later). Similar to the vulture mines + seige tanks vs Dragoon + Zealot metagame in SC:BW; these strats eventually drifted down into standard play used by the masses. It would only take a premier level team that developed a strategy, game style and play style that played to the strengths of shade for everyone to copy/mimic. The game simply changes to fast for people to adjust and innovate, instead relying on the proven strongest strategy. These type of innovations can take months and even years before discovered.
NS2 has entered a stable state where the game is most likely not going to change. What we have now will most likely be what we have for a long time, excluding minor changes. This has set the stage for innovation to finally have a chance to shrine.
Having bread and butter strategies is fine, throwing in the occasional cheese (shade hive) is good for mixing up the game and forcing an opponent to play non-standard.
If you really care so much about strategy and tech-tree's, start playing competitive. The public scene merely mimics the competitive scene, but 3-4 months late.
Comments
That said, even in pubs, I am more and more convinced phantom is extremely powerful early on skulks, I have very satisfying phantom skulk play, killing marines who searched the room, missed me and then went to light up their little welders. I don't know if it's possible to survive on a ceiling in plain sight like that with better players, probably not, but this means pubbers should try phantom more often.
The issue really is once mid game hits it revolves around your higher lifeforms staying alive, and without shift and craig hive, it makes it much harder than it should be, especially shift. Shade hives don't really benefit higher lifeforms as much, sure they're nice, but shift and craig are more or less necessities.
Another major consideration in choosing a hive is the abilities it grants their specific structures. The Shift, the Craig, and the Shade. The Craig's heal-wave is nerfed to the point where I have no idea why I still use it. The Shade's ink is very situational, and extremely defensive. Not to mention, obscure. "Ink Blocks Arc's? WAT?!" The Shift's highly useful Echo just plain outranks the other two. Load up some whips as if the thing's a bloody revolver and pop them on unsuspecting Marines, or in the base. Or build two shades, two craigs, and you've got two instant firebases for the aliens to pop out of nowhere. (Not to mention, a perfect complement to that gorge tunnel.) Even if the other two are free, I'd still do Spur/Shift hive hands down.
I don't have problems with something used often - its sort of like the build order of the day in SC2, and if someone does something different 1/10 games, I ll still have fun. In a pub setting, I am happy to play a balanced game (non-team stacked), and the nuisance of having a viable hive opening choice isn't really something I think about much.
tl:dr: Shift open (most often used), Crag open also used alot, Shade (I always say for funsies - not really going to win this one, but its fun to drop on marines and make them poop their pants until they get A1/W1). As long as you are playing and having fun, it doesn't matter.
Balancing shouldn't be about removing things which work well in the game, it should be about making different things work fairly equally well.
And no, "shade for funsies until A1/W1" doesn't really cut it for me. If that works for UWE, I would rather it be called "funsies" instead of "shade." Shade is a third of the alien com game, so a third of the alien com game is not functional at the moment. For me, it's as simple as that.
Yes and No.
You can take a team of ordinary players and have them play against each other and a fade would be stomped on. The skill-floor is too high for an ordinary player to achieve an average result, however go to the next level (div 1/2) players and fades rape. Go up another level to premier where marines regularly pull of full meat shots and fades are quite weak again.
Sometimes a class, ability or upgrade can change back and forth from underpowered to overpowered multiple times as you transgress through the skill brackets.
Additionally, buffing shade/crag/shift hive results in 2nd tier aliens strength being amplified. Shade is in a good spot at the moment, although not a 1st hive choice it is a very strong complimentary 2nd hive ability providing aura and silence.
In my experience, mechanics or upgrades can be completely unused / underutilized until an innovation of play is developed at the premier level of the game (Example 1: Babblers were OP, yet untouched for months) (Example 2: Strength and power of mucous was not discovered during BT / 250, but discovered months later). Similar to the vulture mines + seige tanks vs Dragoon + Zealot metagame in SC:BW; these strats eventually drifted down into standard play used by the masses. It would only take a premier level team that developed a strategy, game style and play style that played to the strengths of shade for everyone to copy/mimic. The game simply changes to fast for people to adjust and innovate, instead relying on the proven strongest strategy. These type of innovations can take months and even years before discovered.
NS2 has entered a stable state where the game is most likely not going to change. What we have now will most likely be what we have for a long time, excluding minor changes. This has set the stage for innovation to finally have a chance to shrine.
Having bread and butter strategies is fine, throwing in the occasional cheese (shade hive) is good for mixing up the game and forcing an opponent to play non-standard.
If you really care so much about strategy and tech-tree's, start playing competitive. The public scene merely mimics the competitive scene, but 3-4 months late.