YATPP (Yet Another Thread on Progression Paths)
HeatSurge
Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
There's probably been about 65535 threads on this already, but I just wanted to call attention to this simple observation again - concisely, and sharply.
I've been experimenting with alternative game progression paths with both marines and aliens lately, and I'm astounded how ingrained certain dogmas have become over the last few months. Both on marine and alien teams, certain things caused most people to rage hard, quit the server, eject, troll, etc. etc. (i.e. obviously these are also highly emotional issues as well).
For marines, the biggest trigger was not researching phase gates or dropping an armory and obs quickly (in the first ~5 mins) - even if the res is spent promptly and entirely on upgrades or elsewhere. In addition, not dropping ammo or med packs.
For aliens though, it's a lot worse, and this is mostly the reason for this post. A significant amount of people that I've encountered on the server(s) I played on over the last few weeks more or less expect shift hive first as a given, and complain severely against shade first. If two hives are present and at least one is not shift, the complaints are also intense.
This is clearly the most significant balancing issue that should be currently looked at. If something like 90% or more of the pub population goes shift first, two thirds of the alien side of the game is not working.
Now, this is when this post becomes a bunch of speculation (my personal opinion), but I think shift is so preferred because of the increases in marine run speed (aliens feel like they HAVE to have this extra speed to keep up), and the increased energy consumption of lifeforms. I actually love the trend towards more energy consumption for aliens, because it makes timing and "trigger discipline" actually worthwhile practicing. However, the unfortunate side effect is that because people perceive this as "difficult" they flock to the "easy fix" of adrenaline and celerity, and overlook the benefits of the other two hives IMO. Or are the other two hives actually "worse?" Perhaps shade and crag need to be reexamined, or the effects of shift reduced until the other two hives are perceived as equally viable starting options.
Or maybe this is all just a paradigm, and the other two hives are just as useful - today?
I've been experimenting with alternative game progression paths with both marines and aliens lately, and I'm astounded how ingrained certain dogmas have become over the last few months. Both on marine and alien teams, certain things caused most people to rage hard, quit the server, eject, troll, etc. etc. (i.e. obviously these are also highly emotional issues as well).
For marines, the biggest trigger was not researching phase gates or dropping an armory and obs quickly (in the first ~5 mins) - even if the res is spent promptly and entirely on upgrades or elsewhere. In addition, not dropping ammo or med packs.
For aliens though, it's a lot worse, and this is mostly the reason for this post. A significant amount of people that I've encountered on the server(s) I played on over the last few weeks more or less expect shift hive first as a given, and complain severely against shade first. If two hives are present and at least one is not shift, the complaints are also intense.
This is clearly the most significant balancing issue that should be currently looked at. If something like 90% or more of the pub population goes shift first, two thirds of the alien side of the game is not working.
Now, this is when this post becomes a bunch of speculation (my personal opinion), but I think shift is so preferred because of the increases in marine run speed (aliens feel like they HAVE to have this extra speed to keep up), and the increased energy consumption of lifeforms. I actually love the trend towards more energy consumption for aliens, because it makes timing and "trigger discipline" actually worthwhile practicing. However, the unfortunate side effect is that because people perceive this as "difficult" they flock to the "easy fix" of adrenaline and celerity, and overlook the benefits of the other two hives IMO. Or are the other two hives actually "worse?" Perhaps shade and crag need to be reexamined, or the effects of shift reduced until the other two hives are perceived as equally viable starting options.
Or maybe this is all just a paradigm, and the other two hives are just as useful - today?
Comments
Shift first gives you skulk speed, and adrenaline for gorge BB and Fade SS.
People have a hard time picking up the game in the first place, let alone learn how to play based on hive upgrade order.
So, Crag is perceived as bad because pub comms don't know that you can use mucous, and Shade is perceived as bad because people don't know how to Phantom/Aura properly.
Last time I tried ink it still wasn't working (last patch). Tried a bunch of times in a bunch of scenarios - right before a scan, right after a scan - still didn't do anything to protect against arcs.
And yeah, pubbers are rediculously overly fond of phase gates. xD
Cause we are worth it.
Not going phase gates works fine, you just gotta keep your marines alive, you have to play it by ear. If your marines are constantly dieng, well you better get phase gates. If they're staying alive you don't really need phase (immediatly). Doesn't matter what you're doing, dropping meds and ammo is a must as marine comm. By dropping meds and ammo you are essentially paying for that position of that marine. If you don't, that marine either has to retreat, or he'll just die. Don't be stingy with meds and ammo, especially if you're skimping on phase gates.
Camouflage is also garbage since you're still pretty visible even when standing perfectly still, unless you're standing in some dark corner (which would be nowhere near any of the entrances/exits since those are almost always lit up). the only reason to go shade hive is for the silence aspect of camouflage and for Aura.
Shift hives give you adrenaline and celerity, which are both extremely powerful, the ability to echo structures around(fantastic ability) and increased movement speed from drifters (it's great for attacking or retreating). I'm sure I don't need to go into why Crag is a great starting choice either.
I've tried so hard to love going shade first, but every single patch it just gets worse and worse. maybe if ink was actually a viable counter to arcs like it originally was I'd use it more, but all it really does is buy you about 3-5 seconds of reprieve every 15ish seconds, not to mention it costs 5ish resources per use and they share a global cooldown. I wouldn't mind if the cooldown applied to a room, but it applies to the entire map. Why can't I ink another hive that's being assaulted on the other side of the map?
It's just bad game design.
Edit: Not to mention with Hallucinations whenever they're killed it comes up as "Hallucination" in the kill tab. which makes it completely obvious you did no harm to the alien economy, and is literally the opposite of "Deceit" which is what the shade is supposed to do. I really think it should use the player and structure name of whatever was hallucinated. that way you can trick players who aren't paying proper attention. Personally, I'd even go as far as to apply death animations to the hallucinations like their normal counterparts.
In pubs you need to go Shift because many players die often and need to get back into battle quickly. Many commanders don't even think about the possibilities of Echo and still go Shift.
In comp you basically need Crag because marines hit so good and Carapace 3 gives Skulks effectively 30% more HP. And Mucous really decides the outcome of many battles.
Shade has potential.
It's just that Phantom lvl 1 basically means that the only use you get out of it is to sit in some corner and have marines get a little closer before you attack (unless you get scanned or discovered by naked eye before that) - after that it's completely worthless in combat. Carapace and Celerity both achieve similar results: they increase your chances to get closer to the enemy before dying.
Level 2 is basically the same as level 1. Being a little more quiet is worth nothing because the marine will still be cautious at the notion of any sound.
You need level 3 for it to be actually useful, because it then allows you constant fast movement without giving ambushes away. And it also makes it harder for enemies to get an idea of your position based on sounds while you dance around them.
But that basically locks you into the strategy of getting 3 Veils up as soon as possible if you go Shade Hive, because you are now on a timer until marines get enough res to afford better armor and constant scans. You can't afford any hit on your economy or you're in for a bad time.
Hallucinations are bad indeed. Sure, marines get to waste some bullets, but it also creates a lot of visual noise for your fellow aliens that often stops them from attacking at the same time as the hallucinations. The hallucinations also require you to let go of your Drifter micromanagement to order them around, so it heavily impedes your ability to support the rest of your units with other buffs and to get your Drifter into safety.
And any protection it could give to retreating or attacking lifeforms is instantly nullified by a single scan.
Ink has been nerfed into oblivion against ARCs, agreed. This change was introduced to prevent aliens on 3 Hives from getting basically immune to ARCing, but it undermines the concept of Shade Hive being about aliens trying to avoid confrontation and offering more defensive than offensive potential.
I think it boils down to a matter of reaction time and investment: it takes a while to manufacture that many ARCs and surely is expensive. So it should not be countered that easily. If the Shade had a powerful Ink but got it disabled by stuff like EMP Grenades and Flamethrowers, it would probably be a better approach since it requires at least some player interaction and not just constant scanning.
And in return do you need Shift for Adrenaline, since it is literally the only upgrade that increases the offense potential of aliens by increasing the number of Bile Bombs you can throw in quick succession. Having a Shift Hive can make the difference between destroying a PG/Observatory/IP/Arms Lab/Prototype Lab in time before marines can react or just losing your Gorge.
And we all really enjoyed reading that thread (and the comments).
I think all three are viable for a starting hive choice. You really need to secure a second hive in the first 4-5 minutes anyway so it shouldn't make a huge difference. Complaining about no phase gates is also silly, that's just backseat comms who don't know what's good for them
However, I absolutely will complain about/eject a commander who doesn't drop medpacks. That is the most important thing the commander can do, and if you don't do it you deserve to be kicked for someone who will
What if:
1) you only required 2 veils to get level 3 powers - ie., one veil = level 2 camo / aura
2) remove ink and make shades with a shade hive produce a passive bonus vs arcs. So instead of every five seconds getting a salvo from arcs, it's every 10 seconds (or whatever the interval is, it's just increased).
That would increase the value of shade hives significantly, in my opinion - as I agree with everything CrushaK said about Shade hives.
But having Shades counter a single marine piece of tech is not? There's nothing wrong with a hard counter as long as it doesn't break balance. If inking costed 1 resource with a 10 second cooldown and 5 second duration. it would double the time it took to kill the hive, and if marines wanted it dead faster, they can walk in and kill or burn the shade. if they don't walk in, they allow aliens time to regroup and make a potential push on the arcs.
good counters force players to think.
Just to clarify: The first statement isn't aimed at you at all, it's aimed more towards UWE.
And people always say, "but you could just run into the hive and kill the shade if you want to arc", as if they've forgotten the whole point of using arcs in the first place.
This is exactly what I'm talking about, and simply put - if that's how most of the population of the game feels and stats say the same, then this is clearly the most broken balancing feature of ns2 right now... because the first thing an alien commander does is select a hive... and I'm sure everyone will agree that clicking on a pre-determined sequence of buttons without thought involved and without viable options isn't what an RTS is about. All hives should be viewed as equally viable at the beginning or ending stages of the game. How that will be accomplished, I have no idea. A simple knee-jerk reaction would be to sweepingly decrease the cele/adren bonuses by X%, but whether that's the "right" way to go I can't say :-) .
Commander choices that actually matter ? Blasphemy !
Other paths are viable, I've seen reloc work, turrets first work (yes really! as in RUSH turrets and put them at tech points and lock out aliens before the get bile, then tech up asap), ups first also work.
PGs are mandatory at some point, especially for the larger maps it's adviseable to get them rather early.
And not dropping ammo and health is bad, unless the situation doesn't allow it (like 2 RTs). Med /ammo a good player and you can secure/win key locations, if you don't, don't be suprised that people get mad at you.
Crag is at least equally viaable. I actually prefer it over Shift as player cause of regen, though shift is pretty much mandatory later. Regen skulk/lerk is pretty powerful. Carapace if good if marines can shoot for the extra 3-4 shots.
Early game I feel like all shift does is make people walk faster into their deaths. Though it does help skulks that don't know how to walljump, that's why it's a favorite in pubs cause people are generally pretty bad.
I think Shade is the worst, if it works, it works, but if you can't take 3 hives you're fucked because of the lack of cara in late game. And if you go shade/cara, you're in a bad position anyway. I think Shade is pretty high risk, but can also work.
Are you forgetting that gorge healspray is a hard counter to fire?
I would rather each veil only costs 15 res. I don't remember what build it was, but the one where they were cheaper than other upgrades was great.
Let's assume all upgrade structures would only cost 15 res each, but were brought down in HP to make up for it and to allow for easier marine sniping. (Thus encouraging marines to more frequently sneak into the alien base - if they only take one of the structures down, it makes up for the total of 15 res that aliens saved when building 3 structures compared to the current cost).
Would you like that?
The problem is that shade and crag are inherently perceived as "worse" than shift - and with the way the game is, you're "locked" into a hive type once it's evolved. So, even if shade and crag were BOTH free and instantly evolved, I think people would STILL argue that shift is a must. And IMO, that's the problem.
I think UWE needs to take a look at the performance (not cost or timing) of shade/shift/crag really hard and make some changes.
Personal opinion: If it were up to me, I'd start with sweepingly reducing cele/adren benefits by 50% for a patch. I think crag/shade are fairly close on the "preference" scale, although I would say generally people would lean towards crag.
P.S. I've gone so far over the last few weeks as to hear things like "I CAN'T play fade/lerk" without shift. While I personally disagree, because I can, I think the increased lifeform energy costs have pushed people not to get better at timing, but to desire an easy fix. It's fine if shift gives some benefit - obviously you're forfeiting shade or crag benefits by having it - but perhaps the benefit is way too significant, if a significant percentage of people feel that the alien game can't even be played without shift. That paradigm must be completely removed, extremely rapidly.
Yes. Well, no, coz I never knew!
But seriously, if I heal spray a burning whip that whip is then going to do something other than recycle it's 3 second 'burning' min pose? See- there is something to visit the forums for.
Personally.. i love discovering those things.. truly separates from the casual gamer.. but that's also a bad thing for $$ and future games, depending on the importance/impact it has on the round.