Netcode, wall climbing, damage feedback etc etc etc....
swansong
mk Join Date: 2013-11-04 Member: 188985Members
mk Join Date: 2013-11-04 Member: 188985Members
I don't like the commander mode for public games, I've played about 20 more games since I made a post about it and I've not have a single game with a good commander. In fact they mostly get voted to be ejected as they don't do anything to help the team and most of the time we're waiting ages for someone to even want to play commander. Like I said in that post building needs to be done in real time by people actually playing, it isn't hard to come up with some sort of TF2 like Engineer system.
After playing for longer I have major issues with other aspects of the game...
1. I don't like the netcode, even with good pings you get lots of lag but also constantly I run round corners and then I'm shot dead like a second after, there is no excuse for that and it's made even worse by another point I'm about to bring up.
2. There is barely any damage feedback, in other games like CS you move slower and your screen shakes a bit, it is very easy to know when you're being shot. In NS2 it feels worse than playing Max Payne 3, constantly in that game I was like when did I take all that damage? I feel the same here, I can be suddenly killed and feel cheated because I had barely any indicator that I was shot. I cannot explain it but in CS I feel the shudder as I get shot, it feels like there is force feedback, even though there isn't. In NS2 it is just a bit of green or whatever on the screen and there is no animation, no screen shake, no satisfying sound to make you aware... you just run smooth still like you're on ice.
3. I hate how the camera doesn't change angle when you're running up a wall. It makes things very confusing because you expect your perspective to change and I feel like it makes it harder to scale the walls as a result.
4. Another thing that makes it hard is how I'm constantly getting stuck on little parts of the wall that are sticking out or how I cannot climb up an overhang. You really need to look at Ass Creed and how you scale around so seamlessly and then copy it because the alien should automatically scale small bumps in walls and pipes and overhangs. I shouldn't have to jump over so many things...
5. The shooting as marines feels super floaty and weak, yet they actually kills aliens with ease. I feel like I'm shooting a pea shooter and it is so unsatisfying that I don't bother with Marines any more. I want to feel weight, I have heavy armour on, I shouldn't be able to jump around like super Mario and guns should have kick back and screen shake and all the other things that make guns feel satisfying in other shooters.
6. The Onos needs better animations, right now you can barely tell if you're attacking or not, to you the player it looks pathetic, again lacklustre feedback.
7. Leap needs to be easier to obtain as aliens, it is just needed really quite early on because without it the starter alien doesn't feel any fun to play. If it makes aliens over powered in early game, then give
Marines something, however for me the starter alien just has nothing to make them fun until leap and you normally never get leap until you can upgrade to a better alien any ways.
It is a shame there is so much wrong with NS2, I like the core game, I like RO2 as well, but liking it isn't enough to keep me playing if there are too many flaws. RO2 has horrible pings that kills the game entirely, until they fix it, it ain't playable. NS2 suffers from the same netcode issues and performance issues like why does loading take so long? It isn't like there is even much to load. There are lots of little things that in any other game you know you'd have an option like play without commanders, which I believe you can do but there are so few players that there are barely any servers if any that have done that. Other things as well like why isn't there an option so I can have my perspective change when up walls? Why can't I have the option to turn on all these feedback options I want?
I can only guess it's because there is an elitist community around this game, you cannot listen to a dying community, there aren't many players, you need more and a lot of my issues are easily made as toggles and are problems I know most of my friends have with the game as well, the main one being performance.
After playing for longer I have major issues with other aspects of the game...
1. I don't like the netcode, even with good pings you get lots of lag but also constantly I run round corners and then I'm shot dead like a second after, there is no excuse for that and it's made even worse by another point I'm about to bring up.
2. There is barely any damage feedback, in other games like CS you move slower and your screen shakes a bit, it is very easy to know when you're being shot. In NS2 it feels worse than playing Max Payne 3, constantly in that game I was like when did I take all that damage? I feel the same here, I can be suddenly killed and feel cheated because I had barely any indicator that I was shot. I cannot explain it but in CS I feel the shudder as I get shot, it feels like there is force feedback, even though there isn't. In NS2 it is just a bit of green or whatever on the screen and there is no animation, no screen shake, no satisfying sound to make you aware... you just run smooth still like you're on ice.
3. I hate how the camera doesn't change angle when you're running up a wall. It makes things very confusing because you expect your perspective to change and I feel like it makes it harder to scale the walls as a result.
4. Another thing that makes it hard is how I'm constantly getting stuck on little parts of the wall that are sticking out or how I cannot climb up an overhang. You really need to look at Ass Creed and how you scale around so seamlessly and then copy it because the alien should automatically scale small bumps in walls and pipes and overhangs. I shouldn't have to jump over so many things...
5. The shooting as marines feels super floaty and weak, yet they actually kills aliens with ease. I feel like I'm shooting a pea shooter and it is so unsatisfying that I don't bother with Marines any more. I want to feel weight, I have heavy armour on, I shouldn't be able to jump around like super Mario and guns should have kick back and screen shake and all the other things that make guns feel satisfying in other shooters.
6. The Onos needs better animations, right now you can barely tell if you're attacking or not, to you the player it looks pathetic, again lacklustre feedback.
7. Leap needs to be easier to obtain as aliens, it is just needed really quite early on because without it the starter alien doesn't feel any fun to play. If it makes aliens over powered in early game, then give
Marines something, however for me the starter alien just has nothing to make them fun until leap and you normally never get leap until you can upgrade to a better alien any ways.
It is a shame there is so much wrong with NS2, I like the core game, I like RO2 as well, but liking it isn't enough to keep me playing if there are too many flaws. RO2 has horrible pings that kills the game entirely, until they fix it, it ain't playable. NS2 suffers from the same netcode issues and performance issues like why does loading take so long? It isn't like there is even much to load. There are lots of little things that in any other game you know you'd have an option like play without commanders, which I believe you can do but there are so few players that there are barely any servers if any that have done that. Other things as well like why isn't there an option so I can have my perspective change when up walls? Why can't I have the option to turn on all these feedback options I want?
I can only guess it's because there is an elitist community around this game, you cannot listen to a dying community, there aren't many players, you need more and a lot of my issues are easily made as toggles and are problems I know most of my friends have with the game as well, the main one being performance.
Comments
I'm sure this would make people all covered in vomit after a 30min round.
What is wrong with feedback then? I don't have a clue. Would have to go into some other games and record what happens when you get shot and then replay in slow motion to learn what's different about it.
It's quite fun really, AvP had it, but for gaming stamina it's pretty dreadful.
Edit: Before someone beats me to it: NS had it too for a time.
Except that half of the things he pointed out are valid issues. Especially netcode/hitfeedback is terrible in ns2.
simply put, what we have now is here to stay.
Damage indicator- Headphones... Players don't listen nearly enough, if you don't here me wall jumping as I am chasing you your doing it wrong.
Bad coms- find a regular server HBZ or KKG or whatever (US 1 west probably doesn't get regulars) while good coms probably roll in and out of less popular servers when their favourite is full or empty, you need to go to them. In your case I recommend [GG] combat server.
Alien perspective- while your idea seems reasonable and fun, can you imagin the disorientation of falling off the ceiling? Your air strafing left then left becomes down, then left is right? Keeping a fixed axis makes this much simpler as tracking is tricky enough
Getting stuck- annoying? Yes. Avoidable? Yes. This game is big on positioning planning your routs is big.
When wall jump first came out players were hoping around empty maps to perfect the mechanic. You don't strike me as the player who cares enough to do this. If you want a game to play that takes a day to master, go play minecraft.
I have 1500+ hours and I still start up an empty server with cheats 1 every weak or so to explore different ideas.
The whole getting stuck thing .. to me this is a huge problem. And if anyone says its avoidable I call bullshit. I have 800+ hours and play with competitive players and I see everyone getting stuck at some point, especially with Fade. And when you play with these eagle eye snap shots, getting stuck with the fade for even 1/4 of a second is instant death, bye bye 40-50 res. I find that most often I get stuck on marine structures even though on my screen it looks like I cleared it no problem. And the worst part is the only way to get off the structure is to change your blink direction by more than 90 degrees, which means you need to turn directly towards the guys shooting at you assuming you were already heading on the path of escape when you got stuck.
Oh shit OP, thanks for the laughs. Unfortunately I've already maxed out on the amount of cancer I can handle this month so I won't be able to recommend these points to the devs just yet.
These are some of the reasons I play NS2 over other shooters, sorry but screen shake isn't adding to the skill of the game, it's just pissing people off. As far as recoil goes, that actually reduces the skill in the game and increases the luck factor, which is just retarded, recoil can go die.
EDIT: By recoil I assume you mean like CS recoil where the bullets start going above the crosshair and random, yeah, lol, oh wow. I know this is a difficult concept to understand for pro gamers such as yourself, but bullets go where the crosshair says they go, mmmmk?
EDIT2: Also, on net code, the only way to avoid this is to go back to old hitreg which had absolutely no lag compensation at all. That is, if you have 1000 ping and fire a shot at a doorway, and a skulk goes through that doorway 1 full second later in real time, he's going to get hit by the bullet. On the flip side, if you have 1000 ping and you see a skulk run passed a door frame, and shoot at it with 100% accuracy, absolutely no bullets will hit, because in server time (real time) he wasn't actually there. No modern game does this anymore because while it has the annoying disadvantage of the whole "getting hit around corners" bs, it allows people to actually hit what they're hitting. A way to reduce the effect of this is to play on servers with a maxping enforced, say 150 max being really leniant? 100 if you wanna be more strict. (Please don't everyone do this or I won't be able to play on anything since I'm in Australia
#5 This is the future. The advances in nanite technology have made some serious advances. The guns are now 100% accurate, so the burden of aim is on the shooter. These guns are lighter but hit with more force. Same with the nanite armor, it is light weight but stronger than steal.
#7 Learn to wall jump. Leap has ranged from being able to be received in 50 seconds, to later in the game than it is now. It is in a good spot.
Odds are the person shooting you had high ping. So you were still on their screen when you were around the corner on yours. Its still annoying and makes playing against ppl with high ping a pain, but mebe they would have killed you anyway?
They had that in Tremulous and it confused the crap out of me. But maybe it will be better in ns2?
This so much, I hate how cluttered the maps are with small, pointless doodads that serve no gameplay value except to get in the way of speedy movement. Hell, some of them are so tiny that they dont even serve to block a single bullet, but God forbid if you touch them because lose much of your momentum or worse, get stuck.
Aesthetics should NOT take precedence over gameplay! This is especially bad for the random crap that sticks out of the walls on every map because it makes it VASTLY more difficult to wall or ceiling climb. Things like that should not collide with players imo, otherwise its just freaking annoying.
Also RO2 killed RO1, a vastly more unique and interesting game and replaced it with a low quality BF wannabe. Shame on it.
Screen shake has nothing to do with skill, it has to do with notifying the player they are taking damage. And it doesn't have to be screen shake, a red flash around the corners of the screen would work. Or a red arrow pointing in the direction you took the damage (think half-life games).
RE Edit- I agree with you that ns2 does not need recoil effect but what I think the OP meant was the gun does not feel very fun to shoot, which I somewhat agree with. Its not a big deal though and doesn't NEED fixing.
RE Edit2 - I think you are misunderstanding the complaint. Nobody wants it to be like you said with the netcode removed. What people are complaining about is how the netcode for ns2 is so horrible when compared to other online FPS games. Go play Counter Strike for 10 minutes and you will know what I mean. If two players in CS have 40-60 ms pings, the delay is so small that you really don't even notice it, you almost never take damage around the corner. 80-120 ms of delay (combined pings of both players) is very easy to manage , if you make it around the corner with 10hp you will actually live 98% of the time. However in NS2, if you make it around the corner with 10hp you will DIE 75% of the time once around that corner and out of sight range. The netcode of ns2 seems to make peoples pings FEEL 2-3 times as bad as it really is.
So that 80-120 ms delay in NS2 FEELS like 200-500 ms ping would feel in CS. Does that make sense?
About screenshake, I said it DOESN'T add any skill to the game, now I don't know about you but when I think of an FPS I think of a video game where the only thing that matters is your skill (which isn't just aim btw). All I'm saying is that screenshake does nothing to add to that, it doesn't raise the skill ceiling, it's just annoying and kind of in the way, so why have it?
A directional arrow towards damage is fine and I think I saw a mod that did this at some point? Was called HL1 (or NS1) damage indicators or something I dunno. It's not something that actually "gets in the way" (unless it's done poorly).
I don't understand what isn't fun about shooting the gun? You press the mouse button and projectiles fly at your enemies, what more do you want? It has a minor kicking back effect if you're into that, though I know a few people that would disable it.
EDIT: I see that @Roobubba managed to write his post faster than me
On topic: Only points i agree with are
1) What you perceive to be netcode issues - most of which is more than likely latency which cannot be changed, but the effect can be lessened with moverates being unlocked
2) Damage feedback - which also suffers from #1, and i would recommend better audio cues.
Other than that, i disagree, good sir
edit: @roobubba slightly ninja'd me, there.
"Your comment will appear after it is approved."
Wtf?
Stop posting, it's rubbish.
Welcome to the Forums.
If so, im sure swansong is going to reach it with his 3rd post.
Only thing i can agree with is the locked movement- , server- and client networkrate.
Its too slow for an fast game like ns2.
As its part of the engine only Max can change this.
1. As allways, optimization and improvements are coming each patch. So it will get better.
2. NS2 combat is alot faster than CS, having flashy animations lasting for along time will blur em together when taking damage i think. However, sound and map-awareness have more of a priority in NS2, and the sneakyness of the aliens is directly tied to it. So changing stuff might upset the balance aswell. - But... Tweeking the sound feedback i think is a valid option.
3. The camera has a small tilt (if you havent disabled it) - As for full rotation, its been tryed and it made people sick. And it was vary disorietating.
4. Mastering the alien movements, when to make use shift etc. takes alot of practice, however if you do find stuck points, holes or iragularities in the navmesh and stuff. Take a screenshot and post it here on the forums, so the mappers can take a look.
5. I agree, some kick to the gunplay would be neat, but whit so much going on, on the screen in combat. It would be a difficult task to not make it disruptive to the gameplay, especialy whit explotions and onos steps allready shaking stuff around.
6. What is it you dont like about the animations, and do you have any surgestions on what should be improved about em?
7. Making the skulk faster early on would hugely upset the early game balance, so while i do agree that its more fun leaping around. Changing stuff around would be a HUGE balance upset and disrupt the gameplay. That said, as it is whit balancing any game, nothing is set in stone.
And in case you wish to have a more direct impact on the game, whit your ideas and testing / finding of bugs and stuff.
Link to join the Playtesters are in my signature.
Please, swansong, ignore this last statement from GISP. There are plenty of people whose opinion and ability I would value as an addition to the PT team. One of the main traits that these people display is not whining constantly. I think I speak for many people on the forums here when I ask of you: please do not consider applying to become a playtester. And I really mean that in the nicest possible way.
1. I just don't think it will get better is good enough, I don't remember when this game came out, but it has to be over a year ago at least now, I think I remember hearing about it like 5+ years ago. How long does this game have? RO2 was semi turned around, but it was done a year after launch and now it is quite popular. I think this game is great, however performance and accessibility need to change. I think that is what saved RO2, a long with the expansion gaining a bit of hype and Steam free weekends.
It's coming only works so long if you get me, it rarely works 2+ years after launch.
2. What I mean is, I take damage but I do not feel like I'm taking damage and I feel cheated as a result. I want to feel each bullet that goes in to me, I know that is an odd thing to say in a game, but a game like CS makes you feel them with a combo of different things like shudders and sound design.
3. I need full rotation personally, I just don't see why it isn't an option.
4. What I mean by movement is, I should be able to run up the same wall seamlessly, however right now I can get stuck on corners or pipes or little sticking out bits that shouldn't stop be moving. In real life animals that crawl up walls do not have to jump to get over objects, they just seamlessly crawl. Say if I'm crawling up a wall and I meet the ceiling, I have to jump to it, I don't automatically crawl to the ceiling.... I think it is a limitation based on the camera not fully rotating, I just hate it!
5. I just want a bit of feedback from the gun, we do not have rumble on our mouse and keyboards so I need something on screen to make them feel powerful.
6. I think the starter alien is fine, leap is super satisfying, the alien that quickly warps around feels super satisfying, I just think the Onos should feel more beefy when you're attacking, like the Marine rifles, the Onos feels weak. Often I'm playing and I'm attack and wondering if I'm doing any damage because the attack animation from your perspective is barely anything. It looks fine when you're looking on at it, however as the Onos, I'm like "is this doing any thing?"
7. It could unbalance the game, I don't know, even single game I've played out of about 30 odd now, the Marines have won. I feel like the aliens are so under powered in the early game and leap is the answer, it shouldn't be a second hive upgrade... or maybe it should but the commander has just sucked for aliens in all of my games playing? I think yes the commander has sucked, but that isn't the problem to why aliens lose in the early game.
Speaking of commander, people can go on about how they love it on the forums all they like, I could make a video montage of how long I've waited before each game to get a commander. People just don't want to pay it because that isn't the important aspect of the game. Who buys this game to play some semi RTS thing? I bought it to be a twist on the FPS genre...
I like that the commander is there, it just shouldn't be for public/non competitive games. I still think it would be much more fun to have an extra alien.extra marine abilities and be able to build your own bases and structures while playing. You'd lose none of the depth, only you'd be doing it in real time together, instead of the one commander.
Ah I understand, that's an odd angle to take but you are right, damage feedback will not increase the skill ceiling. It will however help prevent people in the mid to low skill range from raging out of the game and telling their friends this game sucks.
As for the netcode, yes the high speed of the aliens makes it seem worse but what about slow moving aliens like gorge / onos with no cele or charge? I've definitely had it happen more than a few times, and its not even just dying around corners. More often than not its like the server had to stop and think for a second to calculate how much damage I have received, it gets "clogged up" or something from so many players scoring so many hits on me in a short time, then it all catches up in a 1/10th of a second my health goes from 1000/650 down to 500/0 or something like that.. so as I rush in and my alien friends attack, I have no way to know who the marines are focusing their fire on, just my health indicator which could drop to near zero in an instant from my perspective. It makes it impossible to reliably rush a base with an onos because by the time you see your health snap down so low its usually too late to escape because only 1-2 more mags and you are dead.
I suppose I can't be sure if this is a netcode issue or server side issue with the way things are processed, perhaps some servers don't have the CPU to keep up, which would explain why this doesn't happen every time just under the right circumstances.
You can allso try playing the combat mod. Its the deathmatch of NS2, no commanders, instant respawn(in waves), and you level as the game progresses/ get kills and assists
I think your "need" of 3. stems from failure in 4. Having a rotating camera would not change gravity's orientation for you. So when running along a wall and jumping over a pipe you would not fall back to the wall but would fall laterally down.
Also, You should not need to jump to go from wall to ceiling, or to get over a pipe. Practice your mouse movement maybe start shift walking before running. But you CAN get over 99.99% of map geometry with a proper flick of the wrist. This takes practice and can be frustrating. There are a handful of map geometry that is nearly impossible to run over BUT if you move over 6 inches you can go around it.
Start an empty server, go skulk and practice corkscrewing down a hallway.
So, swansong has a poor ratio for right-to-wrong. Even so, #1,2,4, and 5 are completely valid points. Feel, navigation, and performance aren't just trivial issues.