I think a big part of the problem is that "pro" players know that is way easier to win as marine on public servers. Many of them don't stack with voice friends, they just stack marines because they know alien play sucks without teamplay and often leads to frustration.
Isn't it the other way around? You need more teamplay as marine then aliens do. It's only easy as marine if aliens are astrociously bad, like floor skulks.
No, it doesn't matter much if the skulk is good or bad, 1 shotgun blast kill you and you just have to fight in teams. And with the new weaker fade, it's no longer able to win the game "alone" like it used to be, because you just need the other life forms to achieve anything. Preferably with drifter support.
As marine you need a shotgun, some meds and maybe a jetpack later into the game and you are able to kill every life forms, harvesters, hives, uprades and rebuild your own buildings. It is all in your hands. You don't need to have good players to have basic team play. All you have to do is to kill life forms and res towers or at least hold your own rts until you outtech the aliens and siege their hive.
All in all you have way more control over the outcome of a match in a usual pub.
Neither is a marine capable of winning a game alone; sure, you can go back and forth and heal up and stuff, but you can do the same as alien, although admittingly not as effective as it used to be.
Otherwise you need team support. It doesn't matter if you have armor 3 or 0 if there are no teammates welding you and you run around at armor 0 constantly, it gets you killed with 2 hits (or 1 with onos) and your precious 20 res shotgun will be gone; repeat 2-3 times and you're out of res and stuck with LMG. As for meds & ammo, you have to rely on the commander for that obviously, that is team-work too.
Also you're pretty much dead if you need to reload and are alone, and if the alien opponent is smart.
Plus, you don't do very much damage if you run and gun alone, as it gives aliens much more time to react.
On alien on the otherhand, even as skulk, I can take on a PG, RT or even IP, as long they don't use teamwork against me. It only gets easier the "higher" your lifeform is; once the other team uses teamwork, the more consequently you need to use teamwork too.
But regardless, this is a team based game and once one team has teamwork (willingly or not - like people working together accidently cause they all run off in the same direction), you usually need teamwork on your team as well. I just think it's more annoying as marine then it is on alien, but in either team, unhelpful or uncooperative teammates are a bummer.
You're right, marines need teamplay to win as well, but it is just way easier. Even rookies understand that you have to stick together as marine. And where I play pretty much everyone welds. And if someone doesn't have a welder, I'm dropping them mine, they weld me, and they give the welder back. But those things are not hard, or hard to understand.
As alien you have to coordinate attacks with correct timings to stand a chance against 2 good shotgunners.
The usual pub alien would rather die alone at the attacked harvester, instead of waiting for reinforcements or to just sacrifice the harvester and kill a extractor in exchange, if backup wouldn't make it in time. Soloing is much more of a problem for the aliens, because you only have your lerk / fade / onos once (mostly). As marine you couldn't care less if you keep dying, as long as you can retain your shotgun and hold your phase gates (often protected by sentries where you depend on someone bile bombing it).
And if you can't keep the marine rts down, you're sooner or later outteched and lose. Now when you're a fade you have to depend on someone else to do the rt biting. If no one does, you'll lose even if you did everything right.
The alien play understanding is just less present in most players.
And you're also right with "if the alien opponent is smart". That's the point im trying to make, if the aliens are smart, they can easily win, even against marines with higher pskill. Marines don't have to be that smart to do the job.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
how times change.. a while ago we complained marines were loosing and noone was ever grouping up.
Guess repair armor on welders/macs only had the desired effect, eventually.
I disagree on rookies on aliens not grouping if need be. Stack is still most skilled players on one side.
What gets me is people demanding that certain people join a certain team, or new or inexperienced commanders getting annoyed if their players aren't going where requested (because they demand that their entire team is at their base and their two natural rts and no one should pressure...).
It's all very well to complain that 'pro players don't listen to me' but honestly when you don't listen to us eg telling you that we need to apply pressure now to an rt or watch the left lane or for God's sake please don't all stand around in base doing nothing, well why the hell should we listen to you?
I often will play against my friends to avoid a total stack, but sometimes the stupidity and stubbornness in game of some not-green-but-should-be-greens absolutely ruins the games. They think they know best but they have zero game sense, zero tactical awareness and terrible aim to go with their terrible attitudes.
With that said, there are some inexperienced players out there who DO listen and learn and those games can be really good.
24p servers, unfortunately, are a terrible derp-fest of uncoordinated lameness more often than not. Complaining about 2 good players on the same side of a 12v12 is just ridiculous. Getting an early advantage is important for each team, and any team unable to respond appropriately to an early game threat deserves to lose. If 2 players - even premiere division players - can hold down a room against an organised push of 11 skulks, then I'm sorry but that is a l2p issue and nothing more.
It's not all bad, in light of this discussion I've noticed skilled players are more willing to switch teams. I just had 3 really good games where before the game started we identified a skill stack and discussed who was going to be on what team before the game started. The games couldn't have had a better outcome, a good back and forth control. Very solid 20-30 minute games.
Sadly this can't always be and I understand sometimes its just not feasible. But with players, a mod, or some new system implemented identifying a numerical stat stack and evening it out, there is no doubt that this will improve the number of good games to be had. This is all I would like to achieve... You can argue balance all day, but I understand that perfect balance isnt feasible, but leveling out skill based on stats history is about as good as it can get.
Honestly they need to get rid of random all together, and replace it with a split skill mod, that uses stats from stat tracker. Every game I see atleast 25-50% of players voting for random, and random just doesn't do the game justice like a logical team split would.
NS2 has always been about challenge and teamwork. That is what is killing the game (or rather, keeping it in a niche); it is a difficult game that really doesn't cater to the casual players. As an example, I have a group of friends who play CS:GO daily (match-making but no ambition, just lolling around) and we've talked about NS2 with them. Some of them have tried it and dropped it and the rest won't even try. Why? Because the game requires a lot of non-standard FPS skill and knowledge and thus requires much more teamwork and effort in learning to get started. You don't get spoon-fed praise and fake success in the shape of ranks either, so the first few hours are going to be really hard on a new player...
PS. You'd think a 75% rookie friendly server coverage would mean that we experienced players wouldn't have to deal with baddies blaming us for stacking. Like, for 2 players being on the same team on 24 player server. Ridiculous... Like always, the magical responsibility that people call for in this thread is a one-way street: You try your best to help and advice, but most of the time people don't listen to it at all. You do your best to enjoy your game, and then get abuse on the forums for one thing or another
That I can agree with. Why vote random isn't using the hive stats that was put in a couple months ago for seeding I don't even (know).
It hit me last night. Random is players attempt at splitting up the teams or getting players out of the RR, but it honestly is just a random. The only thing it fully achieves is getting players out of the ready room. But why not have a vote system to split players up based on their stats? It just makes sense.
It would finally put an end to this stacked team argument once and for all. Just as when a player calls bad commander you respond. "theres an eject button for a reason". If a player calls stacks you can respond "there's a vote system for a reason".
Let me say that, I'm not saying these 2 players are completely to blame, but they led other players onto that team by not spliting up after the first 2 games. You would have to be oblivious to not know what your doing, especially when you have players requesting for you to split up. Knowledgeable players don't want to play against a stacked team, so they join it naturally.
So everyone is to blame in some way or another. So can we get over the stupid blame game though, the psychology behind this isn't that hard to understand. Nobody is 100% to blame for it, but the people not talking constructively in this topic are not helping. If we can find a solution who cares who is to blame for it as it will be in the past! Some people are going to do what they're going to do. We have already been warned that going in this direction is going to get this topic locked.
So lets get together and figure out a way to make this better instead of being defensive and pointing fingers. I've stated a new vote system that could be implemented, could we all agree on that atleast?
Honestly they need to get rid of random all together, and replace it with a split skill mod, that uses stats from stat tracker. Every game I see atleast 25-50% of players voting for random, and random just doesn't do the game justice like a logical team split would.
So what people shouldn't be allowed to pick what side they want or be able to play with friends.
You do know that KDR-based teams is a thing on quite a few servers now, right? And it still works horribly.
When I'm pubbing, I always anti-stack (unless the teams are empty then I choose whatever I feel like playing at that moment). But to be honest, it's really no wonder why comp players do stack. Like Colt and some others have said, 99% of the time they're on TS/Mumble together, so they'd just prefer to play together. Second, because of the mentality that most high-level competitive players possess, not only do they want to win, but they want to play with competent people, i.e. people who know what they're doing: easiest solution? Join the same team with your buddy.
And the latter part is a huge reason why stacking exists: player incompetence. I often try to field command, giving intel (e.g. "there's 3 in Repair Room"), advising players where to go, what to do, helping commanders with build order, etc. etc.
But as Squirreli said... it just really wears on us "comp players" when we're trying to help, and our advice still goes unheard.
[Press 'Request Medpack' Key]
"Comm. I need meds."
[Press 'Request Medpack' Key, again]
"Comm, med me in East Wing."
[Press 'Request Medpack' Key, again]
"Comm, press space bar to center the camera on player requests."
[Press 'Request Medpack' Key, again]
"Comm, press space bar, then "E" then "S" and drop me a medpack."
[Killed by parasite]
And this applies to everything else: "Comm, drop the extractor here." "Comm, drop the power in Deposit." "Comm, scan Topo." All with an equal amount of instruction. To say the least, it gets extremely frustrating, not just with unresponsive comms, but teammates as well ("Locker Rooms PG getting hit, phase through. Phase through. Phase through." Ten people sitting in base. PG down.).
I have to say, I've never played a game with as many people who are apparently both blind and deaf, because I use voice first, and if they don't respond, I type it out--both almost always garner absolutely no response. And it really makes me rage--I can only imagine the guys who are better than me (which is a lot, since I suck at this game).
So to avoid this quite common frustration, "we" tend to gravitate towards each other, since we know we can rely on each other to do things properly.
So to avoid this quite common frustration, "we" tend to gravitate towards each other, since we know we can rely on each other to do things properly.
Then you will continue to have easy wins, and never have an actual game worth playing. Sometimes players have to step up. If you have an even split then both teams will be equally good and bad. The idea that one team having a killer team because a few players are still learning on the other team is a horrible argument. There is always going to be good and bad players on a team. If you make an effort to even things out this wouldn't be an issue.
So to avoid this quite common frustration, "we" tend to gravitate towards each other, since we know we can rely on each other to do things properly.
Then you will continue to have easy wins, and never have an actual game worth playing. Sometimes players have to step up. If you have an even split then both teams will be equally good and bad. The idea that one team having a killer team because a few players are still learning on the other team is a horrible argument. There is always going to be good and bad players on a team. If you make an effort to even things out this wouldn't be an issue.
If you're just going to continue to ignore posts, snip one line and ignore the rest of entire posts there really is no reason to continue this conversation.
As its been said "pro" players have every right to enjoy the game, and sometimes playing with responsive, knowledgeable players is the best way to do that.
No I do not want to play on the team where no one listens and no one communicates, and yes I will join the team with players that do such.
Not to mention sometimes I don't want to play alien, or marine and sometimes I want to play with friends.
Not to mention "stack" is quickly becoming the go to excuse. Just played a 40 minute game the other day and first thing I heard in the ready room is "thats what happens when you stack teams".
Honestly, it really REALLY is not that big of an issue.
There's an eject button for a reason. If you don't like someone's commanding then you should jump in yourself.
Yeah about that... I've done like you said a few times but that only works if your team understands whats going on.
I don't mind taking over from a comm who messed up the first few minutes of the game but those instances are rare. It's usually not that hard to spot someone who's failing his comm duties but getting a solid enough team to get a fast vote is unlikely.
Lets face it, if the comm wasted the first few minutes of the game and the early game res on junk you don't need. You've practically already lost unless the game has been stacked in your favor.
Hell I've had games where I communicated with my team all the way through, had half the map locked down only to lose because I got out of the comm chair to sort out skulks in another base and some other guy took my comm seat. Only to be met with 1-2 votes short of a vote-eject costing us the game.
I applaud your attempts in seeking balanced teams and I do assure you that's what all of us want. But unless you enforce a fully automated balance system this is simply not going to happen. Manual team balance what you seek requires communication, and that is exactly whats missing in most pub games. Stacking is merely the effect, you'll have to cure the cause to do any real good.
Sorry, the game is too fundamentally flawed at a core level to ever be fixed for pubs. The skill curve is way too steep, causing more highly skilled players to be drastically better than newbs instead of only fairly better. The commander position itself is also an infuriating umbilical cord that is difficult for newbs to play but boring and rote for skilled players and he carries too much of the game on his shoulders.
Sorry, the game is too fundamentally flawed at a core level to ever be fixed for pubs. The skill curve is way too steep, causing more highly skilled players to be drastically better than newbs instead of only fairly better. The commander position itself is also an infuriating umbilical cord that is difficult for newbs to play but boring and rote for skilled players and he carries too much of the game on his shoulders.
I wouldn't call it a flaw, its just the nature of a high skill game.
And commander is only frustrating when as you said, your team just keeps dieing and doesn't listen.
This is going to be my last response to this... Nobody is 100% to blame for it, but the people not talking constructively in this topic are not helping.
So yes I will from now on snip away at what I please. If its not constructive, its not worth anyone's time.
if the comm wasted the first few minutes of the game and the early game res on junk you don't need. You've practically already lost unless the game has been stacked in your favor.
90% of servers I've been in are very easy to approve of a vote reset given the conditions are early noticed, unless the server doesn't allow that.
I applaud your attempts in seeking balanced teams and I do assure you that's what all of us want. But unless you enforce a fully automated balance system this is simply not going to happen. Manual team balance what you seek requires communication, and that is exactly whats missing in most pub games. Stacking is merely the effect, you'll have to cure the cause to do any real good.
This is simply the biggest problem I see this game facing. I have received a lot of approval on my end so I don't feel its a lost cause. I would just like to see things improve as I'm sure everyone has that intent.
I'm really upset with the nay sayers giving the dozens of different excuses saying this game is a lost cause, the games not balanced, or its problems are the game itself. The 'real' problem is the people that have that attitude and don't make an effort. Seems like there are 3 types of players against anything here...
First you have the players that don't like playing with newer players, bad players or whatever you want to call them. Then stick to competitive matches, because there will always be a new player in a pub server! Don't come into a server with that as an excuse to jump on the team with the best player. Even on a winning team there is someone on the bottom. If you can't accept that then don't join a pub server, go make your own server and put a password on it and give it to all players you want to play with since that's how you like it. Be aware that they did this in NS1 and it didn't work out so well.
Second is players that deny stacking a team exist, because its a cry wolf scenerio... so it simply doesn't exist?
Last and even worse than all else, don't be a damn vulture and stick around feeding off anyone trying to be productive. If you say its a lost cause, then get lost!
Sorry, the game is too fundamentally flawed at a core level to ever be fixed for pubs. The skill curve is way too steep, causing more highly skilled players to be drastically better than newbs instead of only fairly better. The commander position itself is also an infuriating umbilical cord that is difficult for newbs to play but boring and rote for skilled players and he carries too much of the game on his shoulders.
I wouldn't call it a flaw, its just the nature of a high skill game.
And commander is only frustrating when as you said, your team just keeps dieing and doesn't listen.
Bonus points if they blame you afterwards
part of good game design is knowing your demographic and audience.
creating a game whose skill curve is way too steep is a way to make a game bad in pubs unless you have an enormous player base. This is most definitely a design flaw, unless they intend to not have a very strong player base.
There are ways to make a game with a very steep skill curve work (the original tribes games are the best at this), but ns2 does not have these features. NS2 would need to be designed differently from the ground up to work as a modern game.
Just because you disagree does not make it non constructive.
Sometimes i do not want to be alien.
Sometimes i do not want to be marine.
Sometimes i want to play with my friends.
Forcing kdr based or some other inane shit like that is more frustrating than anything else.
And as for go play on competitive servers, literally every server in my browser list is rookie, and when there isn't I join those.
You can keep bitching and moaning how its ruining the game when the game has real issues like optimization and server issues (which is why 90% of people stop playing)
Everyone that disagrees with you has made valid points, yet you say that isn't constructive. The bulk of your contribution to this thread hasn't been constructive, because you have absolutely no respect for any opinion that is different from your own.
You should realise that this thread is open to everyone on the NS2 forum, it doesn't belong to you just because you created it.
You can keep bitching and moaning how its ruining the game when the game has real issues like optimization and server issues (which is why 90% of people stop playing)
Ya, client-side right now things are looking up. Server-side (which affects the clients) needs a good douching but is making slight progress. Personally, those are the reasons my gaming with this title went way down, not the "team stacking".
Team stacking can always be addressed on the fly by active admins/server community.
Everyone that disagrees with you has made valid points, yet you say that isn't constructive. The bulk of your contribution to this thread hasn't been constructive, because you have absolutely no respect for any opinion that is different from your own.
You should realise that this thread is open to everyone on the NS2 forum, it doesn't belong to you just because you created it.
Pretty much, just reading like a troll now, gonna ignore this thread going forward.
Well ill do a shameless plug here. All-In has a server ive been trying to pop for more teamwork based players. It is called "All-In | FF ON Bluefangsoloutions.com". If you want to be a team player and up your game please help pop and join this server. If you do not work as a team, and don't want to learn the game, please do not join. I will start kicking people who do not play it right. Thanks
Well ill do a shameless plug here. All-In has a server ive been trying to pop for more teamwork based players. It is called "All-In | FF ON Bluefangsoloutions.com". If you want to be a team player and up your game please help pop and join this server. If you do not work as a team, and don't want to learn the game, please do not join. I will start kicking people who do not play it right. Thanks
We need more servers like this. I've started to join this one a time or two but it was passworded so I assumed it was a scrim or pug only server.
The servers I usually frequent have a policy that lack of teamwork and communication as being a kickable offense, and of course there are sometimes some pretty one sided games, but IMO the overall experience is much more fun and enjoyable with like-minded teammates.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Tactical gamer does the whole "Communication is required" thing.. and they definitely stand by that, with admins doing communication checks with players... i like that.
Its a lot more clear and encouraging than "kicking people who do not play right"
TL;DR:
Why do steamrolls happen, even with matchmaking? Because team-based FPS games are extremely sensitive to collective differences in skill. NS2 has this sensitivity amplified by its RTS mechanics snowballing power in favor of the winning team. The feeling of skill-imbalance that leads to threads like this are primarily a symptom of the gametype. And as such, can only be truly addressed by making a different kind of game. I think that the proposed solutions are merely bandaids that cannot live up to people's expectations. That's not to say they shouldn't be pursued; just that people should accept that steamrolls happen even under the best plausible initial conditions (i.e. match-made-random).
I would have agreed with this sentiment ten years ago, but multiplayer gaming in 2013 has many examples of moderate to good skill-balancing systems in games (e.g. CS:GO, LoL, SC2, etc). As long as you don't make perfection the enemy of the good, nearly any skill-balance system would be an improvement over the current lack of any in NS2.
Overall, I view skill-stacking in NS2 as a 'tragedy of the commons' problem. Its trivially easy for moderate to good players to skill-stack in the process of just playing the game, even unintentionally (like playing a pickup game of basketball where Michael Jordan is one of the players; there is no way it doesn't end up stacked). This drives away new to moderate players who dislike losing badly or repeatedly, increasing the chances of more 'Michael Jordan playing in your pickup game' scenarios.
The solution will have to be similar to other 'tragedy of the commons' solutions (e.g. NS2 makes it more 'expensive' to skill-stack). In my view, this means:
(1) The skill-balance system needs to either be mandatory or the default behavior (i.e. players have to opt out, rather than the current opt in approach used by Shine)
(2) Make it easier to find matches with players closer to your skill level (e.g. Sabot or some similar gather system with matchmaking)
(3) Penalize players for repeated skill stacking (e.g. a mutator or some sort of penalty flag for having a score, kdr, or kill/min in large excess of other players in a match)
I understand the sentiment of wanting to play with friends/play on populated servers, but the side-effects of skill stacking is corrosive on the playerbase. Losing some ability to play with and on which servers as you desire for a better overall playing experience and better player retention is a good trade-off imo.
Well ill do a shameless plug here. All-In has a server ive been trying to pop for more teamwork based players. It is called "All-In | FF ON Bluefangsoloutions.com". If you want to be a team player and up your game please help pop and join this server. If you do not work as a team, and don't want to learn the game, please do not join. I will start kicking people who do not play it right. Thanks
Shameless is an understatement! :P
I think the best solution to this problem is for everyone to remove everyone from their steam friends list. It's obvious that people joining their friend's current server is the root cause of the teams being stacked!
You do know that KDR-based teams is a thing on quite a few servers now, right? And it still works horribly.
Another terrible post endorsed by a comp player that says little more than I like to stack because I win, the part I've quoted is a lie as well, I can't think of one server between US and AU that enforces KDR random in any way, shape or form. Unless it's tactical gamer, they have a ping kicker so I can't play. So I'll give you maybe 2 servers.
Its trivially easy for moderate to good players to skill-stack
We've gone way past unintentional, unintentional could have been used last December, not coming up on this December, the only steps taken to prevent or curb it have been allowing Shine Admin on servers that's rarely used properly or servers having active Admins...which I can't think of any.
I still think match making is a horrible solution, CS GO is a glorified IRC PUG bot that records stats and MOBAs work because they're MOBAs, I'm sure the average dota 2 player would agree games are 50/50 stomps half the time, games in LoL aren't a great deal better with ranked consisting of "Who has least amount of trolls/idiots" with the occasional baron throw to spice things up.
GORGEouses TL:DR doesn't address what the OP is talking about even in theory, I just got out of Craka Crapper Gaming server that had the same 3-5 people joining the same team 3 rounds in a row (I left at 3 rounds) maintaining a ridiculous 7:1 KD ratio, people aren't asking for a perfect system or letting perfect be the enemy of good, they just want the most absolute (clan) stacked horseshit in pub games to stop.
But it won't and casa and Colt are the doorway to the other side of the argument, gotta stack to be relevant in those pub games.
You do know that KDR-based teams is a thing on quite a few servers now, right? And it still works horribly.
Another terrible post endorsed by a comp player that says little more than I like to stack because I win, the part I've quoted is a lie as well, I can't think of one server between US and AU that enforces KDR random in any way, shape or form. Unless it's tactical gamer, they have a ping kicker so I can't play. So I'll give you maybe 2 servers.
Multiple top EU servers have an option to vote for NS2Stats ELO-based teams. Lately I've frequented YO clan, TAW, German Slaughterhouse and HBZ and generally have had good games. Not all of those servers enforce ELO, I think, but at least most do. So I don't know... Personally, I think that incommunicative teams are a worse problem than stacking. Maybe this is because I can often carry my team some ways even if we ultimately lose, maybe because EU community is nicer... In any case, for me there is a huge disconnect between what I encounter on servers and many the cry-wolf posts in this thread.
EDIT: Stacking implies there are good players on the server... Please list all EU servers that have this problem. I'll be sure to look for good games there
Comments
You're right, marines need teamplay to win as well, but it is just way easier. Even rookies understand that you have to stick together as marine. And where I play pretty much everyone welds. And if someone doesn't have a welder, I'm dropping them mine, they weld me, and they give the welder back. But those things are not hard, or hard to understand.
As alien you have to coordinate attacks with correct timings to stand a chance against 2 good shotgunners.
The usual pub alien would rather die alone at the attacked harvester, instead of waiting for reinforcements or to just sacrifice the harvester and kill a extractor in exchange, if backup wouldn't make it in time. Soloing is much more of a problem for the aliens, because you only have your lerk / fade / onos once (mostly). As marine you couldn't care less if you keep dying, as long as you can retain your shotgun and hold your phase gates (often protected by sentries where you depend on someone bile bombing it).
And if you can't keep the marine rts down, you're sooner or later outteched and lose. Now when you're a fade you have to depend on someone else to do the rt biting. If no one does, you'll lose even if you did everything right.
The alien play understanding is just less present in most players.
And you're also right with "if the alien opponent is smart". That's the point im trying to make, if the aliens are smart, they can easily win, even against marines with higher pskill. Marines don't have to be that smart to do the job.
Guess repair armor on welders/macs only had the desired effect, eventually.
I disagree on rookies on aliens not grouping if need be. Stack is still most skilled players on one side.
It's all very well to complain that 'pro players don't listen to me' but honestly when you don't listen to us eg telling you that we need to apply pressure now to an rt or watch the left lane or for God's sake please don't all stand around in base doing nothing, well why the hell should we listen to you?
I often will play against my friends to avoid a total stack, but sometimes the stupidity and stubbornness in game of some not-green-but-should-be-greens absolutely ruins the games. They think they know best but they have zero game sense, zero tactical awareness and terrible aim to go with their terrible attitudes.
With that said, there are some inexperienced players out there who DO listen and learn and those games can be really good.
24p servers, unfortunately, are a terrible derp-fest of uncoordinated lameness more often than not. Complaining about 2 good players on the same side of a 12v12 is just ridiculous. Getting an early advantage is important for each team, and any team unable to respond appropriately to an early game threat deserves to lose. If 2 players - even premiere division players - can hold down a room against an organised push of 11 skulks, then I'm sorry but that is a l2p issue and nothing more.
Sadly this can't always be and I understand sometimes its just not feasible. But with players, a mod, or some new system implemented identifying a numerical stat stack and evening it out, there is no doubt that this will improve the number of good games to be had. This is all I would like to achieve... You can argue balance all day, but I understand that perfect balance isnt feasible, but leveling out skill based on stats history is about as good as it can get.
PS. You'd think a 75% rookie friendly server coverage would mean that we experienced players wouldn't have to deal with baddies blaming us for stacking. Like, for 2 players being on the same team on 24 player server. Ridiculous... Like always, the magical responsibility that people call for in this thread is a one-way street: You try your best to help and advice, but most of the time people don't listen to it at all. You do your best to enjoy your game, and then get abuse on the forums for one thing or another
It would finally put an end to this stacked team argument once and for all. Just as when a player calls bad commander you respond. "theres an eject button for a reason". If a player calls stacks you can respond "there's a vote system for a reason".
This is going to be my last response to this... like a broken record. So everyone is to blame in some way or another. So can we get over the stupid blame game though, the psychology behind this isn't that hard to understand. Nobody is 100% to blame for it, but the people not talking constructively in this topic are not helping. If we can find a solution who cares who is to blame for it as it will be in the past! Some people are going to do what they're going to do. We have already been warned that going in this direction is going to get this topic locked.
So lets get together and figure out a way to make this better instead of being defensive and pointing fingers. I've stated a new vote system that could be implemented, could we all agree on that atleast?
So what people shouldn't be allowed to pick what side they want or be able to play with friends.
At best this should be a server mod. At best.
When I'm pubbing, I always anti-stack (unless the teams are empty then I choose whatever I feel like playing at that moment). But to be honest, it's really no wonder why comp players do stack. Like Colt and some others have said, 99% of the time they're on TS/Mumble together, so they'd just prefer to play together. Second, because of the mentality that most high-level competitive players possess, not only do they want to win, but they want to play with competent people, i.e. people who know what they're doing: easiest solution? Join the same team with your buddy.
And the latter part is a huge reason why stacking exists: player incompetence. I often try to field command, giving intel (e.g. "there's 3 in Repair Room"), advising players where to go, what to do, helping commanders with build order, etc. etc.
But as Squirreli said... it just really wears on us "comp players" when we're trying to help, and our advice still goes unheard.
[Press 'Request Medpack' Key]
"Comm. I need meds."
[Press 'Request Medpack' Key, again]
"Comm, med me in East Wing."
[Press 'Request Medpack' Key, again]
"Comm, press space bar to center the camera on player requests."
[Press 'Request Medpack' Key, again]
"Comm, press space bar, then "E" then "S" and drop me a medpack."
[Killed by parasite]
And this applies to everything else: "Comm, drop the extractor here." "Comm, drop the power in Deposit." "Comm, scan Topo." All with an equal amount of instruction. To say the least, it gets extremely frustrating, not just with unresponsive comms, but teammates as well ("Locker Rooms PG getting hit, phase through. Phase through. Phase through." Ten people sitting in base. PG down.).
I have to say, I've never played a game with as many people who are apparently both blind and deaf, because I use voice first, and if they don't respond, I type it out--both almost always garner absolutely no response. And it really makes me rage--I can only imagine the guys who are better than me (which is a lot, since I suck at this game).
So to avoid this quite common frustration, "we" tend to gravitate towards each other, since we know we can rely on each other to do things properly.
If you're just going to continue to ignore posts, snip one line and ignore the rest of entire posts there really is no reason to continue this conversation.
As its been said "pro" players have every right to enjoy the game, and sometimes playing with responsive, knowledgeable players is the best way to do that.
No I do not want to play on the team where no one listens and no one communicates, and yes I will join the team with players that do such.
Not to mention sometimes I don't want to play alien, or marine and sometimes I want to play with friends.
Not to mention "stack" is quickly becoming the go to excuse. Just played a 40 minute game the other day and first thing I heard in the ready room is "thats what happens when you stack teams".
Honestly, it really REALLY is not that big of an issue.
Yeah about that... I've done like you said a few times but that only works if your team understands whats going on.
I don't mind taking over from a comm who messed up the first few minutes of the game but those instances are rare. It's usually not that hard to spot someone who's failing his comm duties but getting a solid enough team to get a fast vote is unlikely.
Lets face it, if the comm wasted the first few minutes of the game and the early game res on junk you don't need. You've practically already lost unless the game has been stacked in your favor.
Hell I've had games where I communicated with my team all the way through, had half the map locked down only to lose because I got out of the comm chair to sort out skulks in another base and some other guy took my comm seat. Only to be met with 1-2 votes short of a vote-eject costing us the game.
I applaud your attempts in seeking balanced teams and I do assure you that's what all of us want. But unless you enforce a fully automated balance system this is simply not going to happen. Manual team balance what you seek requires communication, and that is exactly whats missing in most pub games. Stacking is merely the effect, you'll have to cure the cause to do any real good.
And also, I'm the comm for my team, so I prefer fielding in pubs
I wouldn't call it a flaw, its just the nature of a high skill game.
And commander is only frustrating when as you said, your team just keeps dieing and doesn't listen.
Bonus points if they blame you afterwards
90% of servers I've been in are very easy to approve of a vote reset given the conditions are early noticed, unless the server doesn't allow that.
This is simply the biggest problem I see this game facing. I have received a lot of approval on my end so I don't feel its a lost cause. I would just like to see things improve as I'm sure everyone has that intent.
I'm really upset with the nay sayers giving the dozens of different excuses saying this game is a lost cause, the games not balanced, or its problems are the game itself. The 'real' problem is the people that have that attitude and don't make an effort. Seems like there are 3 types of players against anything here...
First you have the players that don't like playing with newer players, bad players or whatever you want to call them. Then stick to competitive matches, because there will always be a new player in a pub server! Don't come into a server with that as an excuse to jump on the team with the best player. Even on a winning team there is someone on the bottom. If you can't accept that then don't join a pub server, go make your own server and put a password on it and give it to all players you want to play with since that's how you like it. Be aware that they did this in NS1 and it didn't work out so well.
Second is players that deny stacking a team exist, because its a cry wolf scenerio... so it simply doesn't exist?
Last and even worse than all else, don't be a damn vulture and stick around feeding off anyone trying to be productive. If you say its a lost cause, then get lost!
creating a game whose skill curve is way too steep is a way to make a game bad in pubs unless you have an enormous player base. This is most definitely a design flaw, unless they intend to not have a very strong player base.
There are ways to make a game with a very steep skill curve work (the original tribes games are the best at this), but ns2 does not have these features. NS2 would need to be designed differently from the ground up to work as a modern game.
Just because you disagree does not make it non constructive.
Sometimes i do not want to be alien.
Sometimes i do not want to be marine.
Sometimes i want to play with my friends.
Forcing kdr based or some other inane shit like that is more frustrating than anything else.
And as for go play on competitive servers, literally every server in my browser list is rookie, and when there isn't I join those.
You can keep bitching and moaning how its ruining the game when the game has real issues like optimization and server issues (which is why 90% of people stop playing)
You should realise that this thread is open to everyone on the NS2 forum, it doesn't belong to you just because you created it.
Ya, client-side right now things are looking up. Server-side (which affects the clients) needs a good douching but is making slight progress. Personally, those are the reasons my gaming with this title went way down, not the "team stacking".
Team stacking can always be addressed on the fly by active admins/server community.
Pretty much, just reading like a troll now, gonna ignore this thread going forward.
We need more servers like this. I've started to join this one a time or two but it was passworded so I assumed it was a scrim or pug only server.
The servers I usually frequent have a policy that lack of teamwork and communication as being a kickable offense, and of course there are sometimes some pretty one sided games, but IMO the overall experience is much more fun and enjoyable with like-minded teammates.
Its a lot more clear and encouraging than "kicking people who do not play right"
I would have agreed with this sentiment ten years ago, but multiplayer gaming in 2013 has many examples of moderate to good skill-balancing systems in games (e.g. CS:GO, LoL, SC2, etc). As long as you don't make perfection the enemy of the good, nearly any skill-balance system would be an improvement over the current lack of any in NS2.
Overall, I view skill-stacking in NS2 as a 'tragedy of the commons' problem. Its trivially easy for moderate to good players to skill-stack in the process of just playing the game, even unintentionally (like playing a pickup game of basketball where Michael Jordan is one of the players; there is no way it doesn't end up stacked). This drives away new to moderate players who dislike losing badly or repeatedly, increasing the chances of more 'Michael Jordan playing in your pickup game' scenarios.
The solution will have to be similar to other 'tragedy of the commons' solutions (e.g. NS2 makes it more 'expensive' to skill-stack). In my view, this means:
(1) The skill-balance system needs to either be mandatory or the default behavior (i.e. players have to opt out, rather than the current opt in approach used by Shine)
(2) Make it easier to find matches with players closer to your skill level (e.g. Sabot or some similar gather system with matchmaking)
(3) Penalize players for repeated skill stacking (e.g. a mutator or some sort of penalty flag for having a score, kdr, or kill/min in large excess of other players in a match)
I understand the sentiment of wanting to play with friends/play on populated servers, but the side-effects of skill stacking is corrosive on the playerbase. Losing some ability to play with and on which servers as you desire for a better overall playing experience and better player retention is a good trade-off imo.
Shameless is an understatement! :P
I think the best solution to this problem is for everyone to remove everyone from their steam friends list. It's obvious that people joining their friend's current server is the root cause of the teams being stacked!
Another terrible post endorsed by a comp player that says little more than I like to stack because I win, the part I've quoted is a lie as well, I can't think of one server between US and AU that enforces KDR random in any way, shape or form. Unless it's tactical gamer, they have a ping kicker so I can't play. So I'll give you maybe 2 servers.
We've gone way past unintentional, unintentional could have been used last December, not coming up on this December, the only steps taken to prevent or curb it have been allowing Shine Admin on servers that's rarely used properly or servers having active Admins...which I can't think of any.
I still think match making is a horrible solution, CS GO is a glorified IRC PUG bot that records stats and MOBAs work because they're MOBAs, I'm sure the average dota 2 player would agree games are 50/50 stomps half the time, games in LoL aren't a great deal better with ranked consisting of "Who has least amount of trolls/idiots" with the occasional baron throw to spice things up.
GORGEouses TL:DR doesn't address what the OP is talking about even in theory, I just got out of Craka Crapper Gaming server that had the same 3-5 people joining the same team 3 rounds in a row (I left at 3 rounds) maintaining a ridiculous 7:1 KD ratio, people aren't asking for a perfect system or letting perfect be the enemy of good, they just want the most absolute (clan) stacked horseshit in pub games to stop.
But it won't and casa and Colt are the doorway to the other side of the argument, gotta stack to be relevant in those pub games.
Multiple top EU servers have an option to vote for NS2Stats ELO-based teams. Lately I've frequented YO clan, TAW, German Slaughterhouse and HBZ and generally have had good games. Not all of those servers enforce ELO, I think, but at least most do. So I don't know... Personally, I think that incommunicative teams are a worse problem than stacking. Maybe this is because I can often carry my team some ways even if we ultimately lose, maybe because EU community is nicer... In any case, for me there is a huge disconnect between what I encounter on servers and many the cry-wolf posts in this thread.
EDIT: Stacking implies there are good players on the server... Please list all EU servers that have this problem. I'll be sure to look for good games there