Hidden mechanics are bad for new players and people that won't dive into that game so much. They don't know about SJ and they won't use it. So why doesn't work jump the same in all directions? What is the problem with making it consistent? If marines need a little bit faster accelerated jump, to compete with skulks, than why not make it use-able without the need of some secret wisdom?
- increased fade swipe damage to 81 damage (up from 75)
Aliens remain overpowered in the mid and late game. I don't see why a fade buff would do any good. Instead I would like to see a little health buff to fade and lerk but a major decrease in bite/swipe - speed.
It is frustrating to lose a higher life form. Increasing the health will reduce the instances this happens because of bad luck. And to buff marine late game, reduce their attack-speeds. (Lerk is damn op since the bite rate increase to chainsaw speed.)
Aliens remain overpowered in the mid and late game. I don't see why a fade buff would do any good. Instead I would like to see a little health buff to fade and lerk but a major decrease in bite/swipe - speed.
It is frustrating to lose a higher life form. Increasing the health will reduce the instances this happens because of bad luck. And to buff marine late game, reduce their attack-speeds. (Lerk is damn op since the bite rate increase to chainsaw speed.)
Wait, aliens are op mid and late game? Really? Where does this happen?
The primary intention of the swipe damage change is the effect of armor upgrades against Fades, something that was rather negligible in comp matches thus far.
Currently with 75 damage per swipe does it look like this:
A0 (160 HP): 3 swipes = 160 damage + 65 excess
A1 (200 HP): 3 swipes = 200 damage + 25 excess
A2 (240 HP): 4 swipes = 240 damage + 60 excess
A3 (280 HP): 4 swipes = 280 damage + 20 excess
The primary intention of the swipe damage change is the effect of armor upgrades against Fades, something that was rather negligible in comp matches thus far.
Currently with 75 damage per swipe does it look like this:
A0 (160 HP): 3 swipes = 160 damage + 65 excess
A1 (200 HP): 3 swipes = 200 damage + 25 excess
A2 (240 HP): 4 swipes = 240 damage + 60 excess
A3 (280 HP): 4 swipes = 280 damage + 20 excess
Aliens remain overpowered in the mid and late game. I don't see why a fade buff would do any good. Instead I would like to see a little health buff to fade and lerk but a major decrease in bite/swipe - speed.
It is frustrating to lose a higher life form. Increasing the health will reduce the instances this happens because of bad luck. And to buff marine late game, reduce their attack-speeds. (Lerk is damn op since the bite rate increase to chainsaw speed.)
Wait, aliens are op mid and late game? Really? Where does this happen?
Let's not start the discussion about statistics and what they say again, but aliens are winning more rounds for a long time now. And not much has changed there.
Personally I can live with the 71% alien wins from 0 - 5 minutes in the match. That are CC rushs and that is ok. It doesn't happen often enough to be annoying and you can start a new game right after. So, no problem. Even until 15 minutes everything is ok. (51% alien wins)
But what I see as problem are the rising win rates after 15 minutes. It's not as bad as in previous builds. Actually they are really close with around 57% alien win rate. And that's why I would only tweak the damage output of higher lifeforms slightly. Best by a slower attack speed. (for less "hold M1 = win"). A buff for fades goes in the wrong direction.
On a side note: Even if you read the diagram another way... Like aliens can end a game better around 15 minutes, while marines take longer to kill all hives even when they won the match basically around the 15 minute. But even if that is true and marines need simply longer to end the game, their win rates only go up to around 45% after 30 minutes. I think slight tweaks to higher life forms could change that.
NS2Stats has nowhere near the same amount of servers it used to have since the introduction of the NSL mod. There are no real competitive games being recorded anymore.
If you want to compare mid-late game aliens vs marines, it's best to simply look (or just play) at balanced match-ups, preferably with players who can aim. From my experience, mid game lerks and fades are having a real hard time against equally skilled marines with W2A2 and shotguns. I would not ever recommend nerfing their attack rate. The lerk takes a huge risk everytime he decides to go in for bites anyway. And the fade is already struggling with energy management, poor DPS vs structures, and 4 swipe A2 rines with medpack/nano support.
In pub matches, Aliens win more because most of the bad/new players go Marine. The skill floor for both sides is very different at a basic level, with Aliens requiring more skill (and better hardware to be effective). As the match goes on, Marine skill floor decreases because of mines, grenades, grenade launchers etc (typical crutches that bad players love), whereas the skill floor for Aliens increases because of having to deal with these as well as JP marines requiring Lerks and Fades be top notch.
Add that up, and players that suck as Alien will tend to flock to Marine, and it costs them the game. In terms of balance, I couldn't tell you if it close at the highest levels of play, but in your average pub match, Aliens require far more skill than Marines, and this has a detrimental effect on the game.
I prefer to play as Aliens, but I have far more enjoyable matches playing as Marine (unless the Marines are really awful).
Not caring about other people's feelings is the textbook definition of being a jerk.
Or a sign of Asperger's or any one of another number of conditions. Just because someone doesn't appear to care about other's feelings, doesn't mean they are a Jerk.
Paradoxically, making that statement obviously shows you do not care about the other persons feelings....
People only care about other people's feelings if it would benefit them in some way to do so, or hurt them not to. Don't try and make people sound decent.
I'm sure just about everyone has been a dick to someone online because it's quite possible they won't even see them again.
Ok, I should have said, that I'm talking about pub-games. Because I'm not a comp-player. And in this regard, I think that over 3000 games (from b256-b258 without combat and balance test) have at least a little value. Maybe UWE get another result with sponitor. But if so, why don't they post some results again to stop the guessing and state some facts? It would help for many people to understand why balance changes are made.
For example the strafe jump. How has it influenced the early game in win percentages?
In my experience, in public matches, the reason aliens have an advantage is due to better harassment abilities (at the public level). Maybe 'better' isn't the right word, but 'easier'. Skulk mobility combined with bile bomb allows aliens to much more easily and effectively harass marine economy. This allows them to accrue more personal rez and leads to the 'life form explosion'.
On the other hand, marines require more teamwork at the public level, and depending on your team this can be incredibly difficult to deal with. At the public level, marine commander is more difficult than the alien commander, in my experience, as you have to monitor your mini-map much more closely to be able to respond immediately to any base rushes or observatory snipes. Furthermore you have to constantly redirect your team and make sure they don't all go on one side of the map or, worse, disperse and go Rambo (followed by all dying and creating a giant spawn queue).
This is all in regards to the overall win-rate percentages at the public level, not the state of 1v1 skulk vs AR marine.
But if so, why don't they post some results again to stop the guessing and state some facts? It would help for many people to understand why balance changes are made.
They did. It was a while back, I think pre 257 and I forgot the numbers. I remember the ratio been slightly in favor for Alien, but nowhere near the numbers ns2stats were at that time.
NS2stats => 60% Alien : 40% Marines
UWEstats => 53% Allien : 47% Marines
Somewhere like that. Someone will dig the correct numbers out Though they are naught more or less with Reinforced and the patch has not been online long enought to produce useful stats yet (just a trend and UWE won't release those, imageing the bickering)
From my pub play experience, Aliens still seem to be winning most of the time. I agree that Aliens require more skill overall, with the diversity of lifeforms and all the different movements that must be mastered, but if you break it down, I think Marine skill actually outweighs Alien.
The reason for this is that you can have a good fade and a bad fade, but if you stay alive, you'll more or less provide something for your team. A single marine skill difference, however, can result in either one dead marine that did nothing or one ultra-rambo who can kill full health Lerks by themselves with AR + Pistol and rampage through an entire alien team.
Another factor is that a lot of alien players, though competent in all lifeforms, focus their efforts on one they like in particular. I love playing Lerk, so spend most of my matches working on my Lerking. Fades play Fades, etc. All lifeforms are very different in how they move and play. Marines, it's all shooting.
And towards the jetpack comment - the only counter I've found to jp's (shotguns or flamethrowers mahgawdd) is to grind my teeth, strangle my poor mouse and go "eeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" while I desperately spike and bite the jetpacker around the hive.
The primary intention of the swipe damage change is the effect of armor upgrades against Fades, something that was rather negligible in comp matches thus far.
Currently with 75 damage per swipe does it look like this:
A0 (160 HP): 3 swipes = 160 damage + 65 excess
A1 (200 HP): 3 swipes = 200 damage + 25 excess
A2 (240 HP): 4 swipes = 240 damage + 60 excess
A3 (280 HP): 4 swipes = 280 damage + 20 excess
i'm really really interested by the new player collision code. hopefully it will address those "WTF????" moments where you jump into a marine, bite his face, then he walks THROUGH you and shoots you while he's literally 'inside' your hitbox and you're doing 360's unable to see him.
omfg vortex 50% less energy? godlike fade time - too bad you need 3 fully upgraded hives though
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited October 2013
Some feedback:
- reduced nano shield damage absorb to 32% (down from 75%)
- increased nano shield duration to 5 seconds (up from 3)
Was fine as it is in vanilla, IMO
- reduced marine dodge jump effectiveness by 50%
Not sure what the adjustment is, but could be okay. I like how it is in vanilla tbh
- changed macs to construct at 40% compared to a marine (was 30%)
- macs have now a useable thruster ability, increasing their movement speed for 5 seconds (20 seconds cooldown)
Like this change. MACs might have a chance of actually getting away from a skulk now. Now we just need to be able to shoot through them.
- grenades no longer require a research
- increased grenade cost to 5
- increased cluster grenade main explosion damage to 70 (was 55)
- increased nerve gas damage per second to 55 (was 50)
- pulse grenade now reduces alien attack speed by 50% (was 20%)
- tweaked grenade physics (should be now more controlable and less prediction errors)
No research is a good change, along with physics improvements. People still won't buy them at 5 res (much less 3 res). Let us buy single grenades for 1 res each and they will see a lot more use.
- drifters will now slow down when shot from close distance
Makes sense
- new experimental code for player vs. player collision
Interesting. Hope it works nicely.
- increased fade swipe damage to 81 damage (up from 75)
- reduced shadow step cost to 9 (was 11)
- swapped stab and vortex position in tech tree
- reduced vortex energy cost to 10 (was 20)
Nanoshield was not fine. Most people considered it OP in the recent survey and it has been a pain for many players before because it made good players nearly invincible in combat through a "hand of god"-like effect. It even went so far that many comp teams would not even research armor 1 before they got jetpacks and just relied on Nanoshield all day long.
And 1 res per grenade, are you serious? Marines would buy them pretty much at all times and spam them like hell, especially when setting up a forward Armory. Grenades are already in a pretty good spot. This change is more there to give marines some early game measures against Gorge Forts. The commander's tres research costs have been somewhat moved over to the player's pres with this change, which is probably good.
Dont forget about webs! Bring them closer in biomass system and make it cost free (use clog system 5/5). We, gorges want to bring down those damn jpeers with infinity fuel and spit them to death!
I played quite a few hours of BT mod the other day. I Really like the new player physics, makes you feel much more grounded in the world as well as improves combat. Strafe jump feels better, certainly less OP but still a little too effective for my liking. Maybe its more the rate at which you can do them at than the jump itself but I still felt too easy to dance with skulks.
Suggestion: Have you tried gorge tunnels to work as an extension of the cyst network? So to clafiy; a gorge could go off to a room, drop a tunnel and the commander can expand from that point if one end is in range of cysts. It sounds a bit OP but I think it could really open up the map for aliens early game. The forced linear expansion of aliens really limits their tactical choices early game. It also opens loads of stuff up for mappers, which would be really nice
It's not like aliens don't have enough mobility early game already. Allowing to cyst off the Gorge Tunnel would just be OP because marines had no way of reliably containing alien expansion anymore. It would also make a lot of commander-dropped structures depend on the whim of individual players. If that particular tunnel were to be recycled, the entire cyst chain would be severed, possibly in a location where you can't cyst to from your Hive anymore.
The infestation generated by the Tunnel is enough to give aliens early expansion to far away RTs and tech points.
I played quite a few hours of BT mod the other day. I Really like the new player physics, makes you feel much more grounded in the world as well as improves combat. Strafe jump feels better, certainly less OP but still a little too effective for my liking. Maybe its more the rate at which you can do them at than the jump itself but I still felt too easy to dance with skulks.
Suggestion: Have you tried gorge tunnels to work as an extension of the cyst network? So to clafiy; a gorge could go off to a room, drop a tunnel and the commander can expand from that point if one end is in range of cysts. It sounds a bit OP but I think it could really open up the map for aliens early game. The forced linear expansion of aliens really limits their tactical choices early game. It also opens loads of stuff up for mappers, which would be really nice
I was asking for the same sort of thing a while back. Being able to link cysts off of a gorge tunnel, but I realized quickly that this would only be a good solution if it were somehow limited where aliens can place gorge tunnels. What I mean is currently in pub games, a lot of people put gorge tunnels in spots where marines cannot kill them unless they have jetpacks, which would make for incredibly biased game situations. So while i still really like that as an optional change, something should be done against certain gorge tunnel locations first.
It obviously wouldn't work without further changes to how gorge tunnels work ( i.e giving them the same placement restrictions as normal structures, lower health and require more biomass??) and have wider implications for balance. But cyst based expansion for aliens arguably leads to predicable alien base layouts.
CrushaK: I can see how it could cause problems but I would still like to test it, that's for beta/balance test mod is for right!?
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
For the fade changes regarding abilities:
I think stab works on 6 biomass, preferably with a shorter delay. Even if the damage is reduced to 100, it just makes sense that it should have a primary usage of killing armorless marines. With the delay and mechanics the way they are (prohibiting movement) it is currently impossible to use a stab to kill a jetpack who is getting real med support. But if I hit a jetpacker 4 times, I should have a way to kill him regardless of med support if I have two hives up.
I think vortex should be reworked so that it can be controlled when you return to the vortex. Right now being constrained to 1 attack removes much of the usefulness of the ability.
However on two hives this functionality might be too powerful, but with three hives having this control over your vortex makes ALOT of sense.
Comments
Not caring about other people's feelings is the textbook definition of being a jerk.
Hidden mechanics are bad for new players and people that won't dive into that game so much. They don't know about SJ and they won't use it. So why doesn't work jump the same in all directions? What is the problem with making it consistent? If marines need a little bit faster accelerated jump, to compete with skulks, than why not make it use-able without the need of some secret wisdom?
Aliens remain overpowered in the mid and late game. I don't see why a fade buff would do any good. Instead I would like to see a little health buff to fade and lerk but a major decrease in bite/swipe - speed.
It is frustrating to lose a higher life form. Increasing the health will reduce the instances this happens because of bad luck. And to buff marine late game, reduce their attack-speeds. (Lerk is damn op since the bite rate increase to chainsaw speed.)
Wait, aliens are op mid and late game? Really? Where does this happen?
Currently with 75 damage per swipe does it look like this:
A0 (160 HP): 3 swipes = 160 damage + 65 excess
A1 (200 HP): 3 swipes = 200 damage + 25 excess
A2 (240 HP): 4 swipes = 240 damage + 60 excess
A3 (280 HP): 4 swipes = 280 damage + 20 excess
With 81 does it look like this:
A0 (160 HP): 2 swipes = 160 damage + 2 excess
A1 (200 HP): 3 swipes = 200 damage + 43 excess
A2 (240 HP): 3 swipes = 240 damage + 3 excess
A3 (280 HP): 4 swipes = 280 damage + 44 excess
Now you need at least A1 by the time Fades hit the field and are not all set with just A2.
Let's not start the discussion about statistics and what they say again, but aliens are winning more rounds for a long time now. And not much has changed there.
Personally I can live with the 71% alien wins from 0 - 5 minutes in the match. That are CC rushs and that is ok. It doesn't happen often enough to be annoying and you can start a new game right after. So, no problem. Even until 15 minutes everything is ok. (51% alien wins)
But what I see as problem are the rising win rates after 15 minutes. It's not as bad as in previous builds. Actually they are really close with around 57% alien win rate. And that's why I would only tweak the damage output of higher lifeforms slightly. Best by a slower attack speed. (for less "hold M1 = win"). A buff for fades goes in the wrong direction.
On a side note: Even if you read the diagram another way... Like aliens can end a game better around 15 minutes, while marines take longer to kill all hives even when they won the match basically around the 15 minute. But even if that is true and marines need simply longer to end the game, their win rates only go up to around 45% after 30 minutes. I think slight tweaks to higher life forms could change that.
If you want to compare mid-late game aliens vs marines, it's best to simply look (or just play) at balanced match-ups, preferably with players who can aim. From my experience, mid game lerks and fades are having a real hard time against equally skilled marines with W2A2 and shotguns. I would not ever recommend nerfing their attack rate. The lerk takes a huge risk everytime he decides to go in for bites anyway. And the fade is already struggling with energy management, poor DPS vs structures, and 4 swipe A2 rines with medpack/nano support.
Add that up, and players that suck as Alien will tend to flock to Marine, and it costs them the game. In terms of balance, I couldn't tell you if it close at the highest levels of play, but in your average pub match, Aliens require far more skill than Marines, and this has a detrimental effect on the game.
I prefer to play as Aliens, but I have far more enjoyable matches playing as Marine (unless the Marines are really awful).
Or a sign of Asperger's or any one of another number of conditions. Just because someone doesn't appear to care about other's feelings, doesn't mean they are a Jerk.
Paradoxically, making that statement obviously shows you do not care about the other persons feelings....
I'm sure just about everyone has been a dick to someone online because it's quite possible they won't even see them again.
Ok, I should have said, that I'm talking about pub-games. Because I'm not a comp-player. And in this regard, I think that over 3000 games (from b256-b258 without combat and balance test) have at least a little value. Maybe UWE get another result with sponitor. But if so, why don't they post some results again to stop the guessing and state some facts? It would help for many people to understand why balance changes are made.
For example the strafe jump. How has it influenced the early game in win percentages?
On the other hand, marines require more teamwork at the public level, and depending on your team this can be incredibly difficult to deal with. At the public level, marine commander is more difficult than the alien commander, in my experience, as you have to monitor your mini-map much more closely to be able to respond immediately to any base rushes or observatory snipes. Furthermore you have to constantly redirect your team and make sure they don't all go on one side of the map or, worse, disperse and go Rambo (followed by all dying and creating a giant spawn queue).
This is all in regards to the overall win-rate percentages at the public level, not the state of 1v1 skulk vs AR marine.
Did I miss anything?
NS2stats => 60% Alien : 40% Marines
UWEstats => 53% Allien : 47% Marines
Somewhere like that. Someone will dig the correct numbers out
The reason for this is that you can have a good fade and a bad fade, but if you stay alive, you'll more or less provide something for your team. A single marine skill difference, however, can result in either one dead marine that did nothing or one ultra-rambo who can kill full health Lerks by themselves with AR + Pistol and rampage through an entire alien team.
Another factor is that a lot of alien players, though competent in all lifeforms, focus their efforts on one they like in particular. I love playing Lerk, so spend most of my matches working on my Lerking. Fades play Fades, etc. All lifeforms are very different in how they move and play. Marines, it's all shooting.
And towards the jetpack comment - the only counter I've found to jp's (shotguns or flamethrowers mahgawdd) is to grind my teeth, strangle my poor mouse and go "eeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" while I desperately spike and bite the jetpacker around the hive.
that's what it was a few patches ago wasn't it? i could have sworn fades were instant win against A0 a few builds ago.
omfg vortex 50% less energy? godlike fade time - too bad you need 3 fully upgraded hives though
Also, web buff needed
Was fine as it is in vanilla, IMO
Not sure what the adjustment is, but could be okay. I like how it is in vanilla tbh
Like this change. MACs might have a chance of actually getting away from a skulk now. Now we just need to be able to shoot through them.
No research is a good change, along with physics improvements. People still won't buy them at 5 res (much less 3 res). Let us buy single grenades for 1 res each and they will see a lot more use.
Makes sense
Interesting. Hope it works nicely.
Seem like good changes.
And 1 res per grenade, are you serious? Marines would buy them pretty much at all times and spam them like hell, especially when setting up a forward Armory. Grenades are already in a pretty good spot. This change is more there to give marines some early game measures against Gorge Forts. The commander's tres research costs have been somewhat moved over to the player's pres with this change, which is probably good.
Suggestion: Have you tried gorge tunnels to work as an extension of the cyst network? So to clafiy; a gorge could go off to a room, drop a tunnel and the commander can expand from that point if one end is in range of cysts. It sounds a bit OP but I think it could really open up the map for aliens early game. The forced linear expansion of aliens really limits their tactical choices early game. It also opens loads of stuff up for mappers, which would be really nice
The infestation generated by the Tunnel is enough to give aliens early expansion to far away RTs and tech points.
I was asking for the same sort of thing a while back. Being able to link cysts off of a gorge tunnel, but I realized quickly that this would only be a good solution if it were somehow limited where aliens can place gorge tunnels. What I mean is currently in pub games, a lot of people put gorge tunnels in spots where marines cannot kill them unless they have jetpacks, which would make for incredibly biased game situations. So while i still really like that as an optional change, something should be done against certain gorge tunnel locations first.
CrushaK: I can see how it could cause problems but I would still like to test it, that's for beta/balance test mod is for right!?
I think stab works on 6 biomass, preferably with a shorter delay. Even if the damage is reduced to 100, it just makes sense that it should have a primary usage of killing armorless marines. With the delay and mechanics the way they are (prohibiting movement) it is currently impossible to use a stab to kill a jetpack who is getting real med support. But if I hit a jetpacker 4 times, I should have a way to kill him regardless of med support if I have two hives up.
I think vortex should be reworked so that it can be controlled when you return to the vortex. Right now being constrained to 1 attack removes much of the usefulness of the ability.
However on two hives this functionality might be too powerful, but with three hives having this control over your vortex makes ALOT of sense.