aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited September 2013
Webs are improperly placed too late in the game. They did used to come at hive 3 in NS1, but that coincided with a powerful explosion of abilities that pretty much ended the game very quickly for marines.
In NS2, its more of a gradual curve of lifeform abilities after hive 3, and isn't nearly as pronounced as it was in NS1. I think gorge upgrade unlocks should follow this order to make the early-mid game more interesting:
1) Start of game: gorge tunnels, webs are available
2) Biomass 2: Clogs become available
2) Biomass 3: Hydras
3) Biomass 3 + Gorge upgrades: Bile bomb, babblers, and belly slide.
Yes, the gorge is completely unlocked in the early >>> mid game. The reasoning for this:
1) Marine commanders have incentive to research grenades early in the game, namely cluster grenades for efficiently removing gorge work.
2) Early game welder usage is encouraged to remove webs at the start of the game, which also promotes early game welding of other marines. Further enhances having welders available at the start of the game.
3) The gorge is able to build up areas gradually over the early to mid game. First it starts off somewhat lightly with webs, then clogs, then hydras. This would have the gorge helping the commander build up in the early game, and assisting skulks with webs and creating favorable battle areas. It would be less guardian of one area to lame up with clogs and hydras right off the bat, and encourage roaming across the map more.
IMO, web would be much more fun at, or near the start of the game than very late in the game. Also +1 to revamping the gorge build menu.
I agree that the Gorge's buttons need to be reworked. Having to press 2 and then select from 5 different objects is fairly cumbersome.
Maybe (just one idea) it could be something like this: 1. spit, 2. bile bomb, 3. babblers (left click spawns them, right click shoots baitball) 4. webs
And then you'd use separate keys to make hydras, clogs, and tunnels.
Also, I still think the babbler baitball needs to be reworked. It's so tedious to use when it's a projectile that drops after like 3 feet. Just make it a projectile that travels indefinitely in a straight line like the spit.
I think I'm the only one who actually likes the build menu for gorges. I like having all my buildings/constructs consolidated on one button, it feels simple for me.
What I will agree on though, is that webs should not be a hive three upgrade for aliens, at that point in the match the marines are turtled on maybe 2 res nodes that aren't constantly being harrassed/destroyed, victory for the marines here looks bleak. Great tactical use of gorge webs here looks even bleaker.
That happens rarely and those poor jetpackers are chased down and killed before any ninja phasegates. I play on 24 player -servers, so there's always eager aliens ready to give merry chase. If you play on servers with lower amount of players, I guess webs might be more useful.
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
edited September 2013
I'd definitely like to see webs on biomass 6 instead of 7. I'd like to hear a counterpoint from a competitive player, though, as I could absolutely see why that would be a problem in 6v6 where countering webs would be much more difficult (no one uses flamethrowers, trying to weld your way through with small teams is very risky).
Giving them a weapon slot a la NS1 instead of making them part of the build interface could be pretty cool, although we just got the damn ghost structures working for webs recently so it also makes me kind of sad. Additionally, if you could effectively slap webs up in combat to immobilize marines I think it would absolutely need to stay at biomass 7 as that adds far too much power in the midgame to an already pretty potent class.
My position on gorges in a nutshell:
-tunnels require biomass 2
-base gorge cost increased to 10 (from 8)
-webs moved to biomass 6 (from 7) / OR / webs have their own weapon slot, no longer require resources to cast or obey the one-second building delay
Of course, I'm a terrible player and I'm always willing to 180 on any position as soon as someone highlights how stupid I am. :P
I'd definitely like to see webs on biomass 6 instead of 7. I'd like to hear a counterpoint from a competitive player, though, as I could absolutely see why that would be a problem in 6v6 where countering webs would be much more difficult (no one uses flamethrowers, trying to weld your way through with small teams is very risky).
that's kind of how balance works, though. one side gets something new or changed, and if it is as devastating as you believe, marines will adapt to counter it or the league will ban the use of it until it's fixed. edit: the more varied the gameplay, the more interesting it is. and believe me, this game needs something more to attract spectators.
I'd definitely like to see webs on biomass 6 instead of 7. I'd like to hear a counterpoint from a competitive player, though, as I could absolutely see why that would be a problem in 6v6 where countering webs would be much more difficult (no one uses flamethrowers, trying to weld your way through with small teams is very risky).
that's kind of how balance works, though. one side gets something new or changed, and if it is as devastating as you believe, marines will adapt to counter it or the league will ban the use of it until it's fixed. edit: the more varied the gameplay, the more interesting it is. and believe me, this game needs something more to attract spectators.
If the league bans its use then I think we messed up very badly. I'd rather not see NS2 go the way of games like TF2 where the majority of additions to the game are banned from competitive play and the difference between competitive and public play is extremely stark. Competitive communities with very different rules and standards and a high knowledge bar for entry historically tend not to thrive whereas games with no difference in public versus competitive restrictions tend to do very well. We have small enough competitive and public communities as it is and we don't need to set them any further apart than they already are. Better to make no change at all than risk a balance mistake that severe.
As for marines adapting to it: I doubt more accessible webs alone would justify flamethrowers for most teams, but it would be interesting if it did. Given that they do so much less direct damage I'd really like to see flamethrowers get a cost reduction... they are powerful in their role as a utility/support weapon with large enough team sizes, but they're not 25 pres powerful.
It's worth noting that any balance changes that require significant changes to game functionality are unlikely to happen anytime soon as the primary focus right now is on stability, optimization and bug fixing.
I dont want to take part in the discussion really, but I really like options.
I would really enjoy more usable abilities in the game, on both sides, that all can be counterable etc. so that it still is competitive and balanced.
More options adds variety which is also very important.
Webs are strange. They seem intuitively designed for early game-mid game rather than late game where aliens most likely have the match won anyway through onos and fade.
Webs are strange. They seem intuitively designed for early game-mid game rather than late game where aliens most likely have the match won anyway through onos and fade.
They are were used to make the hive room/ choke points unrushable for jetpacks vs focus fades. too bad focus not exist so currently they are just meh.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
When do we want it? YESTERDAY!
Also earlier webs! exactly like everyone said.
When you get webs most get flamed or JP past. (unless you JP proof place them, but then they flame so easy)
And I dropped a few gorge tunnels instead of webs because of the mad menu.
1. Web upgrade should be available faster. In late game they are nearly useless. Welders, flamers, gls and exos are on. In most cases game is already won/lost. Webs should be available in similar time when jp pop out.
2. Why it cost res? WTF? I rly dont get it. Implement for them system like for clogs. Give gorge 5 web charges. To balance that gorge might cost more. Marines dont have to buy ammo for their weapons. Why gorge has to?
3. Webs in build menu is pain in the ass of gorge. Bind webs to separate number key or just make it available in config.
Thought this information might be relevant here. In CrushaK's recent poll of the NS2 community players were asked their opinion on every item in the game, whether they thought each item was balanced, in need of a buff, or in need of a nerf.
Gorge Webs are the only item where "Balanced" is not the most popular response. 81 have voted in favor of a buff, vs. 62 who think they are balanced and 3 who want a nerf.
Later in the survey, Crusha asks whether players think webs come out too late to be useful. The responses were as follows: 2 no, 6 rather no, 15 undecided, 45 rather yes, 89 yes.
Comments
THAT!
Perma Gorge
They.
In NS2, its more of a gradual curve of lifeform abilities after hive 3, and isn't nearly as pronounced as it was in NS1. I think gorge upgrade unlocks should follow this order to make the early-mid game more interesting:
1) Start of game: gorge tunnels, webs are available
2) Biomass 2: Clogs become available
2) Biomass 3: Hydras
3) Biomass 3 + Gorge upgrades: Bile bomb, babblers, and belly slide.
Yes, the gorge is completely unlocked in the early >>> mid game. The reasoning for this:
1) Marine commanders have incentive to research grenades early in the game, namely cluster grenades for efficiently removing gorge work.
2) Early game welder usage is encouraged to remove webs at the start of the game, which also promotes early game welding of other marines. Further enhances having welders available at the start of the game.
3) The gorge is able to build up areas gradually over the early to mid game. First it starts off somewhat lightly with webs, then clogs, then hydras. This would have the gorge helping the commander build up in the early game, and assisting skulks with webs and creating favorable battle areas. It would be less guardian of one area to lame up with clogs and hydras right off the bat, and encourage roaming across the map more.
IMO, web would be much more fun at, or near the start of the game than very late in the game. Also +1 to revamping the gorge build menu.
Maybe (just one idea) it could be something like this: 1. spit, 2. bile bomb, 3. babblers (left click spawns them, right click shoots baitball) 4. webs
And then you'd use separate keys to make hydras, clogs, and tunnels.
Also, I still think the babbler baitball needs to be reworked. It's so tedious to use when it's a projectile that drops after like 3 feet. Just make it a projectile that travels indefinitely in a straight line like the spit.
What I will agree on though, is that webs should not be a hive three upgrade for aliens, at that point in the match the marines are turtled on maybe 2 res nodes that aren't constantly being harrassed/destroyed, victory for the marines here looks bleak. Great tactical use of gorge webs here looks even bleaker.
It's for stopping random jp's running around rampant sniping poor gorges, setting up ninja phasegates, and the like.
that's dumb and you should feel bad for thinking it, imo.
That being said I do think it would probably be better to have them on biomass 6 instead of 7 so they see some use other than turtles.
Giving them a weapon slot a la NS1 instead of making them part of the build interface could be pretty cool, although we just got the damn ghost structures working for webs recently so it also makes me kind of sad. Additionally, if you could effectively slap webs up in combat to immobilize marines I think it would absolutely need to stay at biomass 7 as that adds far too much power in the midgame to an already pretty potent class.
My position on gorges in a nutshell:
-tunnels require biomass 2
-base gorge cost increased to 10 (from 8)
-webs moved to biomass 6 (from 7) / OR / webs have their own weapon slot, no longer require resources to cast or obey the one-second building delay
Of course, I'm a terrible player and I'm always willing to 180 on any position as soon as someone highlights how stupid I am. :P
As for marines adapting to it: I doubt more accessible webs alone would justify flamethrowers for most teams, but it would be interesting if it did. Given that they do so much less direct damage I'd really like to see flamethrowers get a cost reduction... they are powerful in their role as a utility/support weapon with large enough team sizes, but they're not 25 pres powerful.
It's worth noting that any balance changes that require significant changes to game functionality are unlikely to happen anytime soon as the primary focus right now is on stability, optimization and bug fixing.
I would really enjoy more usable abilities in the game, on both sides, that all can be counterable etc. so that it still is competitive and balanced.
More options adds variety which is also very important.
I want them badly as a gorge.
Im curious to play against them as a rine, and yes I remember ns1.
Good to have you with us DC_Darkling!
What do we want!? A dedicated web key!!
When do we want it!? Now!!
Also earlier webs! exactly like everyone said.
When you get webs most get flamed or JP past. (unless you JP proof place them, but then they flame so easy)
And I dropped a few gorge tunnels instead of webs because of the mad menu.
2. Why it cost res? WTF? I rly dont get it. Implement for them system like for clogs. Give gorge 5 web charges. To balance that gorge might cost more. Marines dont have to buy ammo for their weapons. Why gorge has to?
3. Webs in build menu is pain in the ass of gorge. Bind webs to separate number key or just make it available in config.
pls
Gorge Webs are the only item where "Balanced" is not the most popular response. 81 have voted in favor of a buff, vs. 62 who think they are balanced and 3 who want a nerf.
Later in the survey, Crusha asks whether players think webs come out too late to be useful. The responses were as follows: 2 no, 6 rather no, 15 undecided, 45 rather yes, 89 yes.