ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
To me, the core issue at the heart of turtles in NS2 is that the base unit is effectively free (e.g. the marine). Its like if in SC2, the barracks/gateway/hive would spawn a free unit every 10s. Tedious turtles would start occurring regularly.
The only effective solutions I've seen implemented in FPS/RTS games to combat or mitigate this problem are:
1. A Turtle 'Time-limit' where the total number of players that can be spawned are finite (see the ticket system in Empiresmod or Nuclear Dawn)
2. A method to kill a base from a safe location outside of that base (see siege cannons or ARCs in NS1/2)
I think the second method is more viable for NS2 as we already know that it works (ARCs are the reason we don't have any effective alien turtles in NS2). Just repurpose an ability like whip bombard to be able to go through or curve around walls and marine turtles will drastically decrease.
Imo this has got to the point now where it is too much talking and not enough testing. There are some good ideas in this thread but I personally am getting fed up with reading about the ideas. I want to see them implemented. We can theory craft and what not alllll day long but nothing will happen unless these things are tried and tested, Sewlek is still updating the Beta Test Mod but I never see anyone playing on the servers that have them on.
We probably need to do something very similar to what was done with the balance test mod and test it extensively and give useful feedback. Then Sewlek can update and make changes based on the results he is seeing. Until then I fear that all these great ideas will be wasted.
Of course we do have the new patch coming not long from now so who knows what that will do for the balance.
Anyway I think that is the best course of action if we atleast hope to get some ideas implemented.
To me, the core issue at the heart of turtles in NS2 is that the base unit is effectively free (e.g. the marine). Its like if in SC2, the barracks/gateway/hive would spawn a free unit every 10s. Tedious turtles would start occurring regularly.
The only effective solutions I've seen implemented in FPS/RTS games to combat or mitigate this problem are:
1. A Turtle 'Time-limit' where the total number of players that can be spawned are finite (see the ticket system in Empiresmod or Nuclear Dawn)
2. A method to kill a base from a safe location outside of that base (see siege cannons or ARCs in NS1/2)
I think the second method is more viable for NS2 as we already know that it works (ARCs are the reason we don't have any effective alien turtles in NS2). Just repurpose an ability like whip bombard to be able to go through or curve around walls and marine turtles will drastically decrease.
I would think that something along the lines of being able to cover an entire room in infestation very quickly w/o cysts would be more in the theme of aliens.
Something like infesting a room if both entrances are infested.
This would allow whips to be echoed in (AI siege weapons), bone wall and rupture to be used in base, and cause DoT to all marine buildings (timer)
I feel like this would be thematically better, and still allow marines to attempt to push out for an (unlikely) comeback. Implementation of something like this would be the hard part.
It's the first take and it's probably not balanced at all since I had no way to test it in an actual match. But I will probably keep adjusting it in the future based on feedback and ideas mentioned in this thread.
Spores may still be too powerful for that stage in the early game (especially when they are still vision obscuring and Spikes are available as well) and Leap on 1 Hive might make aliens a lot harder to ultimately take down on their last Hive.
But at least the Crag and Drifter changes would seem reasonable to me. Plus if I move the alien upgrades back to the Hives, alien tech progression will be slowed down as well and the acquisition of Spores and Leap will be moved further down the line.
I would think that something along the lines of being able to cover an entire room in infestation very quickly w/o cysts would be more in the theme of aliens.
Something like infesting a room if both entrances are infested.
This would allow whips to be echoed in (AI siege weapons), bone wall and rupture to be used in base, and cause DoT to all marine buildings (timer)
I feel like this would be thematically better, and still allow marines to attempt to push out for an (unlikely) comeback. Implementation of something like this would be the hard part.
This is a great idea. I can't count the number of times i've tried to cloak cysts into the marine base when my team can't break a turtle but there are concerns too;
Pro:
Easier to break Turtles
More strategies for aliens ( e.g instead of waiting for a cyst chain to grow to nano, use the 'Infest' ability so you can drop them sooner and the cyst's should grow before it recedes. Alternatively, use it to start a cyst island behind enemy lines; use the ability -> place a cyst -> echo Crag & Shade = Cloaked forward base assuming crags still out heal the damage an unconnected cyst takes)
Save harvesters where a marine has killed the cyst but the infestation is regrowing too slowly to save it (though with my proposal below, this wouldn't actually be possible, but with some tweaks, maybe.)
Con:
Can be used at any point to whip rush marine bases/extractors without warning
Nothing the marines can do to stop it, simply wait for it to recede.
Proposal: Tie the ability to drifters and require a few seconds (7-10secs?) to charge up (with an audio cue like the beacon does, though not as far reaching) during which time the drifter cannot be moved or use other abilities, giving marines time to react and kill it. During end-game pushes, drifters aren't really prioritized enough at the moment and it's easy enough for aliens to soak up bullets protecting it whilst it charges, but a drifter can't wander alone into a base and expect to wipe it out.
Basically, having such a powerful ability requires there to be a period for the other team to react. How annoying would it be for aliens if they couldn't hear a beacon, and 10 men just popped up all around you... it'd be equally infuriating for marines if whips began appearing rapidly out of nowhere.
It's also a nice bonus as an alien commander to have marines focusing down your cheap AI units rather than your players lifeforms.
P.S. there should also be a visual cue such as a particle effect or the drifter changes colour as it's charging so you can't rush in 4-5 drifters to confuse marines as to which one is charging
I like Benson's idea of some ability which immediately infests an area so you can echo in whips etc. It suits asymmetrical gameplay and allows aliens a means of fighting marine turtles.
Maybe fully matured and abundant amounts of cysts which are invulnerable to fire for the first 20 seconds or so with immediate infestation growth (which I think would look really creepy / cool).
This would cost a fair amount, say 20-40 tres and require infestation nearby. This would also ensure that aliens just couldn't keep dropping it in marine bases whenever they feel like it, and emphasize the importance for marines to keep infestation at bay.
Yeah. What DeskLamp said. If it requires near infestation marines can counter it in a normal game but won't be able when they turtle in base.
With very high res - costs it will also not be used in the normal game. (You also need to factor in, that the whips cost res.)
I really like this idea and think it could fix turtles completely.
Edit by idea:
Another thing that worked in the past was the longer range of bilebomb. It forced the marines to get out and chase the gorge. With the nerfed damage I would love to see the bilebomb range restored.
If the requirement were to have both entrances of the room infested, I could't realistically see an issue with rushing Marine start at any point aside from late game.
Even with PGs, Marines still need to walk out of their base sometimes, in addition to the infestation chains running to their base would (most likely) start dealing damage to the close RTs, forcing a marine response.
And the natural way to counter this would be to destroy the cysts infesting either one or both entrances, which would require a marine push (forces marines out of base, also ending turtle scenario)
I think it would just be a question of the distance between infestation and the "ulceratation" ability (that's what I'm gonna call it for the mo), and also how mature the cysts/infestation needs to be before you can "ulcurate" the base.
Not all Tech Points are the same size, and it's not always west-east / north-south exits. Generator (Docking) for example, would be awkward, as would Flight Control & Atrium (Summit) as they only have exits on one side and they're fairly far apart. Can't discount Nanogrid (Veil) either, although not a tech point, the ability shouldn't be that situational as to only be useful for TP's in my opinion. Locker rooms... could you go north - east or west, or just east - west?
Even if you could work out the issues with those tech points, you'd still have to consider all the different sized and shaped tech points, and if you focused on making it usable to even the largest TP, you'd make the distance too big for smaller TP's (and vice-versa) and it would impact on any future map designs.
Cysts also build up reasonably quickly, so i still think it'd be too easy for the Aliens to quicky build a cyst chain (even maturing is pretty quick with a nutrient mist *unconfirmed*, and you'd only need the cysts at the ends to be matured) to either side and use the ability before a marine sees it. Marines would have to be scouting the area every 15 seconds to check for cysts, pulling them away from the frontlines. and just how far are you expecting the marines to push cysts back? would you, for example, shoot cysts all the way into 'snake pass' or 'deposit' from 'the gap'? because you'd need too to buy just 30seconds before they could all be back up... about enough time to go back to base and resupply.
A mature cyst also takes a fair number of bullets to take down before w3 is out...or is everyone running round with welders popping cysts? just doesn't seem like making marines spend 40+ seconds popping cysts near base for the alien comm to have them replaced in less time than it took to remove them, is a good mechanic... and the cost to the aliens? minimal considering you just kept a marine busy for a full minute (once he'd resupplied). you could be doing this from the 3rd minute of the match... if the marines ignore the cysts, you can prepare the whips.. if not, you've just kept them near their base, instead of getting map control...and can try again in a minute or so
It's also not hard to avoid extractors with cysts, at least long enough to have both sides ready for the ability to used. (think logistics, Cafe, hydro-analysis) any alien comm wanting too, can avoid most extractors.
we'll make the ability cost a lot, so they won't use it before end-game i hear you say? I'd probably be checking to see if marines react to cyst chains near their base pretty early with the knowledge that if I won't even need a 2nd hive or upgrades if i can wipe out the marines only TP without much assistance from player lifeforms. How long does it take 3 bombard whips to destroy a PG? not long i imagine, and even less for obs/arms lab.... Oh and if the marines rush back to base, echo the whips out, and try again in a bit. (justified as a high risk / high reward strategy? Maybe.)
EDIT:You could tie it to biomass though, so it's only available at 3 hives eliminating that issue. but this isn't always a turtle scenario (5 tp maps) and marines suddenly have to watch the exits from BOTH their tp's (assuming they have 2 to aliens 3) exits for cysts. pulling at least 2 marines from the fight almost indefinitely.
the basic idea is solid, but I don't think you've really considered how it would work in-game with your proposed implementation
Another thing that worked in the past was the longer range of bilebomb. It forced the marines to get out and chase the gorge. With the nerfed damage I would love to see the bilebomb range restored.
Or acid rocket could just be implemented in lieu of Vortex. Vortex does absolutely nothing for crowd controlling turtles.
Splash damage on the other hand....
@Chizzler I would imagine it would be a late game, 3rd hive / biomass ability definitely. I don't think that it necessarily will pull marines back as they still have options to counter such an ability, such as through sentry guns in likely infestation spots to prevent getting too close to the base, and also you could implement a sound (like the beacon) to signal its use. I agree though that if you can nutrient mist cysts for maturation it may cause issues. However that might be a tweaking issue.
At the late stage marines will also have flamethrowers to remove cysts quickly (after a cooldown period, see my post above)
This ability would certainly have the potential to impact the way both teams play. But I think that's the point isn't it?
As for different sizes to bases I'd imagine that it could impact where marines would set up their most valuable assets. But for larger bases like summit etc., the ability would not just be restricted to a marine base.
I think it's a cool idea. It's just a question of whether it should be implemented. If it is worth it, then there would definitely have to be balance tweaks to make it a viable option, but not an OP one.
To me, the core issue at the heart of turtles in NS2 is that the base unit is effectively free (e.g. the marine). Its like if in SC2, the barracks/gateway/hive would spawn a free unit every 10s. Tedious turtles would start occurring regularly.
The only effective solutions I've seen implemented in FPS/RTS games to combat or mitigate this problem are:
1. A Turtle 'Time-limit' where the total number of players that can be spawned are finite (see the ticket system in Empiresmod or Nuclear Dawn)
2. A method to kill a base from a safe location outside of that base (see siege cannons or ARCs in NS1/2)
I think the second method is more viable for NS2 as we already know that it works (ARCs are the reason we don't have any effective alien turtles in NS2). Just repurpose an ability like whip bombard to be able to go through or curve around walls and marine turtles will drastically decrease.
I would think that something along the lines of being able to cover an entire room in infestation very quickly w/o cysts would be more in the theme of aliens.
Something like infesting a room if both entrances are infested.
This would allow whips to be echoed in (AI siege weapons), bone wall and rupture to be used in base, and cause DoT to all marine buildings (timer)
I feel like this would be thematically better, and still allow marines to attempt to push out for an (unlikely) comeback. Implementation of something like this would be the hard part.
Echoing fully matured cysts might help on this one.
Or cysts become 'mega-cysts' with biomass 9+. Those have more health and spread/build faster.
Not all Tech Points are the same size, and it's not always west-east / north-south exits. Generator (Docking) for example, would be awkward, as would Flight Control & Atrium (Summit) as they only have exits on one side and they're fairly far apart. Can't discount Nanogrid (Veil) either, although not a tech point, the ability shouldn't be that situational as to only be useful for TP's in my opinion. Locker rooms... could you go north - east or west, or just east - west?
Even if you could work out the issues with those tech points, you'd still have to consider all the different sized and shaped tech points, and if you focused on making it usable to even the largest TP, you'd make the distance too big for smaller TP's (and vice-versa) and it would impact on any future map designs.
Cysts also build up reasonably quickly, so i still think it'd be too easy for the Aliens to quicky build a cyst chain (even maturing is pretty quick with a nutrient mist *unconfirmed*, and you'd only need the cysts at the ends to be matured) to either side and use the ability before a marine sees it. Marines would have to be scouting the area every 15 seconds to check for cysts, pulling them away from the frontlines. and just how far are you expecting the marines to push cysts back? would you, for example, shoot cysts all the way into 'snake pass' or 'deposit' from 'the gap'? because you'd need too to buy just 30seconds before they could all be back up... about enough time to go back to base and resupply.
A mature cyst also takes a fair number of bullets to take down before w3 is out...or is everyone running round with welders popping cysts? just doesn't seem like making marines spend 40+ seconds popping cysts near base for the alien comm to have them replaced in less time than it took to remove them, is a good mechanic... and the cost to the aliens? minimal considering you just kept a marine busy for a full minute (once he'd resupplied). you could be doing this from the 3rd minute of the match... if the marines ignore the cysts, you can prepare the whips.. if not, you've just kept them near their base, instead of getting map control...and can try again in a minute or so
It's also not hard to avoid extractors with cysts, at least long enough to have both sides ready for the ability to used. (think logistics, Cafe, hydro-analysis) any alien comm wanting too, can avoid most extractors.
we'll make the ability cost a lot, so they won't use it before end-game i hear you say? I'd probably be checking to see if marines react to cyst chains near their base pretty early with the knowledge that if I won't even need a 2nd hive or upgrades if i can wipe out the marines only TP without much assistance from player lifeforms. How long does it take 3 bombard whips to destroy a PG? not long i imagine, and even less for obs/arms lab.... Oh and if the marines rush back to base, echo the whips out, and try again in a bit. (justified as a high risk / high reward strategy? Maybe.)
EDIT:You could tie it to biomass though, so it's only available at 3 hives eliminating that issue. but this isn't always a turtle scenario (5 tp maps) and marines suddenly have to watch the exits from BOTH their tp's (assuming they have 2 to aliens 3) exits for cysts. pulling at least 2 marines from the fight almost indefinitely.
the basic idea is solid, but I don't think you've really considered how it would work in-game with your proposed implementation
I don't see the problem. The ability does not need to cover the whole TP. It does not need to be permanent. I think of it as follow:
You chose the ability from a drifter and it shows you a big green circle. There needs to be at least one cyst in this circle or it will turn red and not use-able. The ability would cost 20 - 40 res and creates infestation in that circle for 1 minute.
This won't be used before the end game, because you need the res for upgrades AND you don't have the res for matured whips!
Not restricting it to a biomass level has the advantage of tactical freedom. There may be situations where it is useful to get 1minute infestation before the endgame. As long as the costs are high enough to make it a real decision, I don't see the problem.
You also overestimate the power of whips. Even if marines don't see infestation growing to their base, they can actually kill the whips in a matter of 30 seconds. And no, you will not be able to echo them back. Because you would need to echo the shift there first. At least try a whip rush sometimes before arguing about it. It is not that difficult in a turtle situation but also not guaranteed to succeed. Last time I tried it, I needed to execute it 4 times until it finally got the base down.
I wish there was a like button for that post (though i'm not quite convinced enough to 'agree'). I totally overlooked sentries, which certainly does make a difference during the mid-game to protect against it (albeit a costly one) late-game I don't think sentries would be all that useful (cheap gorges + Bilebomb). That isn't a major concern for me though, you've proved there are options open to marines
No, the ability doesn't need to cover the whole TP, but both cyst chains need to be close enough to use the ability, so some tech points you'd need to cyst right into it (summit map has some large TP's) in order to use it, whereas others you wouldn't.
You seem to have mixed our ideas though, mentioning a drifter and the need for just 1 cyst to be in range. that's fine... I think tying it to drifters as being much more intuitive than fiddling around with cyst chains trying to get the right distance between them.
If tying it to drifters though, why also have a cyst requirement? it only serves to complicate and limit the usefulness of the ability, leaving it as a pure turtle breaker rather than having other strategic uses such as rapid early expansion or sneaking a forward base behind enemy lines... Give the ability to drifters, add a charging phase with audio & visual cues and you don't need to charge 20-40 res either, opening up more uses for it throughout the match (assuming it's not tied to Biomass).
I've done whip rushes, so i do know how quickly they can fail under focused fire. Yes it takes a few seconds to echo each whip in, but by the time the marines are alerted, your 2nd whip should be echo'ing in... and we all know how few players respond to a single red blip in base (and rightfully so). it's not hard to expect to have 3 whips echo'd in by the time marines are back to defend (be it via Ip's,Pg's or beacon). to echo them out again, you need a shift, but the same shift used to echo them in can also echo itself there to pull them out. Sure you may lose a whip or 2, but each one you save is 10res saved (well 9 once you eliminate the cost of echo's) and you don't need them to re-mature.
Im not suggesting it's fool proof, but with minor lifeform support (2-3 players max) and you're going to do some real damage. don't forget that if marines are hit by the bile (be it direct or splash) and their armour gets destroyed, making them much easier to dispatch.
Tying it to drifters with or without a nearby cyst will be far easier to implement than needing a cyst chain at either side and ensures your not fiddling around trying to get the cysts close enough to each other. Without the charge up and audio/visual cues though, it'd give aliens 2+ possible routes into the marine base... so marines would have to defend both sides from cysts rather than just one pulling more marines from base (or requiring more sentries at 25res a pop).
Truth is we could argue about what route to go down in implementation all day... the point is, the ability itself would do wonders to break turtles... and I believe it could be balanced without impacting the rest of the game too much.
p.s "Blister" sounds quite fitting as a name for it.
I believe it was CrushaK, who sometime ago suggested linking the marine supply cap to command stations (effectively making them supply depots). I would really love to see this implemented in a balance test mod. Perhaps doing the same thing for aliens with hives (perhaps not).
Secondly, I'm interested in an end-game upgrade to decrease player respawn time either as a passive team-wide upgrade, or perhaps some sort of commander ability. For Aliens this upgrade would require at the minimum 3 Hives (and some X level of biomass), Marines may not even be given the upgrade.
The idea here is to speed up 'breaking the turtle' in games that end with Marines holding out in one base with walls and all that crap while Aliens control the rest of the map. This is why Marines may not get the upgrade, since they have ARCs. Sure it's not a problem in competitive play but it leads to many stale public games. I'd personally get a kick out of being able to overwhelm the last Marine bastion with never ending waves of units coming with increasing frequency. Depending on the implementation it may also lead to an NS2 version of Sauron Zerg (e.g. if it were a commander ability that could be 'turned on and off' and that drained rez while 'on').
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edited August 2013
This thread becames really hard to follow. But as there are a lot of good ideas here, i would like if someone could start a list somewhere "Ideas for Beta Balance Mod" linking for every entry to the post.
It would help to sort out what is already suggested and also help swelek to easily see what new ideas are there without reading 5 new pages.
I believe it was CrushaK, who sometime ago suggested linking the marine supply cap to command stations (effectively making them supply depots). Since I like beating dead horses, I would really love to see this implemented in a balance test mod. Perhaps doing the same thing for aliens with hives (perhaps not).
Secondly, I'm interested in an end-game upgrade to decrease player respawn time either as a passive team-wide upgrade, or perhaps some sort of commander ability. For Aliens this upgrade would require at the minimum 3 Hives (and some X level of biomass), Marines may not even be given the upgrade.
The idea here is to speed up 'breaking the turtle' in games that end with Marines holding out in one base with walls and all that crap while Aliens control the rest of the map. This is why Marines may not get the upgrade, since they have ARCs. Sure it's not a problem in competitive play but it leads to many stale public games. I'd personally get a kick out of being able to overwhelm the last Marine bastion with never ending waves of units coming with increasing frequency. Depending on the implementation it may also lead to an NS2 version of Sauron Zerg (e.g. if it were a commander ability that could be 'turned on and off' and that drained rez while 'on').
The problem lies with aliens requiring to much teamplay to break the marine base on public. The solution is to buff end game abilities so that aliens can easily win when they have a huge resource advantage (similar what marines can do). Extra limits should not be required.
I would think that something along the lines of being able to cover an entire room in infestation very quickly w/o cysts would be more in the theme of aliens.
Something like infesting a room if both entrances are infested.
This would allow whips to be echoed in (AI siege weapons), bone wall and rupture to be used in base, and cause DoT to all marine buildings (timer)
I feel like this would be thematically better, and still allow marines to attempt to push out for an (unlikely) comeback. Implementation of something like this would be the hard part.
I had a similar idea a while ago but I proposed making the cyst infestation range scale with alien map control. Maybe my idea of basing it on powernodes was not the right way, what about
Alien Cyst Radius = current radius * (1.5 raised to the power of (# of hives -1))
@bERtOr. Are you talking distance between cysts or area if infestation (or both!!!)
I like the Infestation speed idea... What if infestation creep was proportional to biomass so at full biomass 1 cyst infestation was 50% larger diameter... This way you could get infestation into bases without the cyst being as easy to snipe...
Also have cyst build speed inversely proportional to biomass so at full biomass cysts build 2x faster and creep spreads 2x faster
I was talking about both, It didn't cross my mind to differenciate between the two although that would be possible too. Make only infest radius bigger so the cyst network cant suddenly be cut off by losing a hive. However, if you lose a hive you usually have bigger problems than your cyst network...
Reverted some of the previous changes that were clearly too alien favored. The latest version is nerfing aliens in some aspects like
- tech progression speed (Biomass and upgrades are both researched in the Hive and thus compete for the research slot)
- RT cost
- Skulk HP
- Echo being a no-brainer
- less Drifters
- Clogs cost a small amout of pres
- longer respawn time
while buffing them in others like
- 4th Biomass on each Hive
- buffed Crag healing
- better Carapace on Onos
- Bone Shield makes a return
- better Drifter
- can build 2 more Clogs
I think the Crag and Onos changes should help a lot against marine turtles already, especially if the Onos can more easily tank damage for nearby Gorges with Bone Shield.
I'd just add the ability to echo tunnels on bio mass 7 for the infestation spread problem. Maybe increase the hp a little or tie all gorge structures hp to bio mass scaling.
I was told that the ability was obscenely overpowered. You could have your entire team wait in the tunnel and then echo the exit to undefended marine base as soon as infestation spreads near it for an instant surprise rush. Not enough warning time for marines to react.
That could be fixed by pushing the aliens outside the old tunnel entrance upon echoing.
Technically it could already be done with 1 or 2 sneaky gorges, but I've never seen it happening yet.
Bio mass 9 might be more appropriat though.
Edit: Just to clarify the intention: It's not about the using the tunnel as entrance into the turtled base, but the fact that tunnels spread infestation if the other entrance is connected with a cyst.
That makes the tunnel a huge cyst, which you could use to echo your whips in.
A lot of players are not aware that you can use tunnels to grow harvesters. I often use this mechanic on veil to get cargo rt without cysting there and often people complain about missing cysts.
Bumping this thread because BT mod has some new changes:
- aliens always profit from bio mass health (not only upgraded classes)
- gorge tunnels no longer require a research
- added evolution chamber, which hosts all life form upgrades
- pulse grenades have now a proximity detector
- cysts no longer attempt to connect to unconnected cysts when placing them
Mostly just fixing stuff that never should have got changed and maybe trying to fix the insane mess that the alien tech tree has become.
Comments
Only problem is that Lerk would have "too many" abilities. 5 max instead of the usual 4 max. It would be odd.
The only effective solutions I've seen implemented in FPS/RTS games to combat or mitigate this problem are:
1. A Turtle 'Time-limit' where the total number of players that can be spawned are finite (see the ticket system in Empiresmod or Nuclear Dawn)
2. A method to kill a base from a safe location outside of that base (see siege cannons or ARCs in NS1/2)
I think the second method is more viable for NS2 as we already know that it works (ARCs are the reason we don't have any effective alien turtles in NS2). Just repurpose an ability like whip bombard to be able to go through or curve around walls and marine turtles will drastically decrease.
We probably need to do something very similar to what was done with the balance test mod and test it extensively and give useful feedback. Then Sewlek can update and make changes based on the results he is seeing. Until then I fear that all these great ideas will be wasted.
Of course we do have the new patch coming not long from now so who knows what that will do for the balance.
Anyway I think that is the best course of action if we atleast hope to get some ideas implemented.
I would think that something along the lines of being able to cover an entire room in infestation very quickly w/o cysts would be more in the theme of aliens.
Something like infesting a room if both entrances are infested.
This would allow whips to be echoed in (AI siege weapons), bone wall and rupture to be used in base, and cause DoT to all marine buildings (timer)
I feel like this would be thematically better, and still allow marines to attempt to push out for an (unlikely) comeback. Implementation of something like this would be the hard part.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/131544/give-higher-level-lifeforms-a-cap-hit
Forgot the most crucial part of that post xD
Give Lerk primal scream, remove enzyme from drifters, nerf/remove umbra. Early umbra heavily contributes to the un-killable fade ball problem.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=171239491
It's the first take and it's probably not balanced at all since I had no way to test it in an actual match. But I will probably keep adjusting it in the future based on feedback and ideas mentioned in this thread.
Spores may still be too powerful for that stage in the early game (especially when they are still vision obscuring and Spikes are available as well) and Leap on 1 Hive might make aliens a lot harder to ultimately take down on their last Hive.
But at least the Crag and Drifter changes would seem reasonable to me. Plus if I move the alien upgrades back to the Hives, alien tech progression will be slowed down as well and the acquisition of Spores and Leap will be moved further down the line.
This is a great idea. I can't count the number of times i've tried to cloak cysts into the marine base when my team can't break a turtle but there are concerns too;
Pro:
Easier to break Turtles
More strategies for aliens ( e.g instead of waiting for a cyst chain to grow to nano, use the 'Infest' ability so you can drop them sooner and the cyst's should grow before it recedes. Alternatively, use it to start a cyst island behind enemy lines; use the ability -> place a cyst -> echo Crag & Shade = Cloaked forward base assuming crags still out heal the damage an unconnected cyst takes)
Save harvesters where a marine has killed the cyst but the infestation is regrowing too slowly to save it (though with my proposal below, this wouldn't actually be possible, but with some tweaks, maybe.)
Con:
Can be used at any point to whip rush marine bases/extractors without warning
Nothing the marines can do to stop it, simply wait for it to recede.
Proposal: Tie the ability to drifters and require a few seconds (7-10secs?) to charge up (with an audio cue like the beacon does, though not as far reaching) during which time the drifter cannot be moved or use other abilities, giving marines time to react and kill it. During end-game pushes, drifters aren't really prioritized enough at the moment and it's easy enough for aliens to soak up bullets protecting it whilst it charges, but a drifter can't wander alone into a base and expect to wipe it out.
Basically, having such a powerful ability requires there to be a period for the other team to react. How annoying would it be for aliens if they couldn't hear a beacon, and 10 men just popped up all around you... it'd be equally infuriating for marines if whips began appearing rapidly out of nowhere.
It's also a nice bonus as an alien commander to have marines focusing down your cheap AI units rather than your players lifeforms.
P.S. there should also be a visual cue such as a particle effect or the drifter changes colour as it's charging so you can't rush in 4-5 drifters to confuse marines as to which one is charging
Maybe fully matured and abundant amounts of cysts which are invulnerable to fire for the first 20 seconds or so with immediate infestation growth (which I think would look really creepy / cool).
This would cost a fair amount, say 20-40 tres and require infestation nearby. This would also ensure that aliens just couldn't keep dropping it in marine bases whenever they feel like it, and emphasize the importance for marines to keep infestation at bay.
With very high res - costs it will also not be used in the normal game. (You also need to factor in, that the whips cost res.)
I really like this idea and think it could fix turtles completely.
Edit by idea:
Another thing that worked in the past was the longer range of bilebomb. It forced the marines to get out and chase the gorge. With the nerfed damage I would love to see the bilebomb range restored.
If the requirement were to have both entrances of the room infested, I could't realistically see an issue with rushing Marine start at any point aside from late game.
Even with PGs, Marines still need to walk out of their base sometimes, in addition to the infestation chains running to their base would (most likely) start dealing damage to the close RTs, forcing a marine response.
And the natural way to counter this would be to destroy the cysts infesting either one or both entrances, which would require a marine push (forces marines out of base, also ending turtle scenario)
Other potential names?:
- Defile
- Blister
- Cystation
- Bacillicus
Not all Tech Points are the same size, and it's not always west-east / north-south exits. Generator (Docking) for example, would be awkward, as would Flight Control & Atrium (Summit) as they only have exits on one side and they're fairly far apart. Can't discount Nanogrid (Veil) either, although not a tech point, the ability shouldn't be that situational as to only be useful for TP's in my opinion. Locker rooms... could you go north - east or west, or just east - west?
Even if you could work out the issues with those tech points, you'd still have to consider all the different sized and shaped tech points, and if you focused on making it usable to even the largest TP, you'd make the distance too big for smaller TP's (and vice-versa) and it would impact on any future map designs.
Cysts also build up reasonably quickly, so i still think it'd be too easy for the Aliens to quicky build a cyst chain (even maturing is pretty quick with a nutrient mist *unconfirmed*, and you'd only need the cysts at the ends to be matured) to either side and use the ability before a marine sees it. Marines would have to be scouting the area every 15 seconds to check for cysts, pulling them away from the frontlines. and just how far are you expecting the marines to push cysts back? would you, for example, shoot cysts all the way into 'snake pass' or 'deposit' from 'the gap'? because you'd need too to buy just 30seconds before they could all be back up... about enough time to go back to base and resupply.
A mature cyst also takes a fair number of bullets to take down before w3 is out...or is everyone running round with welders popping cysts? just doesn't seem like making marines spend 40+ seconds popping cysts near base for the alien comm to have them replaced in less time than it took to remove them, is a good mechanic... and the cost to the aliens? minimal considering you just kept a marine busy for a full minute (once he'd resupplied). you could be doing this from the 3rd minute of the match... if the marines ignore the cysts, you can prepare the whips.. if not, you've just kept them near their base, instead of getting map control...and can try again in a minute or so
It's also not hard to avoid extractors with cysts, at least long enough to have both sides ready for the ability to used. (think logistics, Cafe, hydro-analysis) any alien comm wanting too, can avoid most extractors.
we'll make the ability cost a lot, so they won't use it before end-game i hear you say? I'd probably be checking to see if marines react to cyst chains near their base pretty early with the knowledge that if I won't even need a 2nd hive or upgrades if i can wipe out the marines only TP without much assistance from player lifeforms. How long does it take 3 bombard whips to destroy a PG? not long i imagine, and even less for obs/arms lab.... Oh and if the marines rush back to base, echo the whips out, and try again in a bit. (justified as a high risk / high reward strategy? Maybe.)
EDIT:You could tie it to biomass though, so it's only available at 3 hives eliminating that issue. but this isn't always a turtle scenario (5 tp maps) and marines suddenly have to watch the exits from BOTH their tp's (assuming they have 2 to aliens 3) exits for cysts. pulling at least 2 marines from the fight almost indefinitely.
the basic idea is solid, but I don't think you've really considered how it would work in-game with your proposed implementation
Splash damage on the other hand....
At the late stage marines will also have flamethrowers to remove cysts quickly (after a cooldown period, see my post above)
This ability would certainly have the potential to impact the way both teams play. But I think that's the point isn't it?
As for different sizes to bases I'd imagine that it could impact where marines would set up their most valuable assets. But for larger bases like summit etc., the ability would not just be restricted to a marine base.
I think it's a cool idea. It's just a question of whether it should be implemented. If it is worth it, then there would definitely have to be balance tweaks to make it a viable option, but not an OP one.
Echoing fully matured cysts might help on this one.
Or cysts become 'mega-cysts' with biomass 9+. Those have more health and spread/build faster.
I don't see the problem. The ability does not need to cover the whole TP. It does not need to be permanent. I think of it as follow:
You chose the ability from a drifter and it shows you a big green circle. There needs to be at least one cyst in this circle or it will turn red and not use-able. The ability would cost 20 - 40 res and creates infestation in that circle for 1 minute.
This won't be used before the end game, because you need the res for upgrades AND you don't have the res for matured whips!
Not restricting it to a biomass level has the advantage of tactical freedom. There may be situations where it is useful to get 1minute infestation before the endgame. As long as the costs are high enough to make it a real decision, I don't see the problem.
You also overestimate the power of whips. Even if marines don't see infestation growing to their base, they can actually kill the whips in a matter of 30 seconds. And no, you will not be able to echo them back. Because you would need to echo the shift there first. At least try a whip rush sometimes before arguing about it. It is not that difficult in a turtle situation but also not guaranteed to succeed. Last time I tried it, I needed to execute it 4 times until it finally got the base down.
I wish there was a like button for that post (though i'm not quite convinced enough to 'agree'). I totally overlooked sentries, which certainly does make a difference during the mid-game to protect against it (albeit a costly one) late-game I don't think sentries would be all that useful (cheap gorges + Bilebomb). That isn't a major concern for me though, you've proved there are options open to marines
@Necro:
No, the ability doesn't need to cover the whole TP, but both cyst chains need to be close enough to use the ability, so some tech points you'd need to cyst right into it (summit map has some large TP's) in order to use it, whereas others you wouldn't.
You seem to have mixed our ideas though, mentioning a drifter and the need for just 1 cyst to be in range. that's fine... I think tying it to drifters as being much more intuitive than fiddling around with cyst chains trying to get the right distance between them.
If tying it to drifters though, why also have a cyst requirement? it only serves to complicate and limit the usefulness of the ability, leaving it as a pure turtle breaker rather than having other strategic uses such as rapid early expansion or sneaking a forward base behind enemy lines... Give the ability to drifters, add a charging phase with audio & visual cues and you don't need to charge 20-40 res either, opening up more uses for it throughout the match (assuming it's not tied to Biomass).
I've done whip rushes, so i do know how quickly they can fail under focused fire. Yes it takes a few seconds to echo each whip in, but by the time the marines are alerted, your 2nd whip should be echo'ing in... and we all know how few players respond to a single red blip in base (and rightfully so). it's not hard to expect to have 3 whips echo'd in by the time marines are back to defend (be it via Ip's,Pg's or beacon). to echo them out again, you need a shift, but the same shift used to echo them in can also echo itself there to pull them out. Sure you may lose a whip or 2, but each one you save is 10res saved (well 9 once you eliminate the cost of echo's) and you don't need them to re-mature.
Im not suggesting it's fool proof, but with minor lifeform support (2-3 players max) and you're going to do some real damage. don't forget that if marines are hit by the bile (be it direct or splash) and their armour gets destroyed, making them much easier to dispatch.
Tying it to drifters with or without a nearby cyst will be far easier to implement than needing a cyst chain at either side and ensures your not fiddling around trying to get the cysts close enough to each other. Without the charge up and audio/visual cues though, it'd give aliens 2+ possible routes into the marine base... so marines would have to defend both sides from cysts rather than just one pulling more marines from base (or requiring more sentries at 25res a pop).
Truth is we could argue about what route to go down in implementation all day... the point is, the ability itself would do wonders to break turtles... and I believe it could be balanced without impacting the rest of the game too much.
p.s "Blister" sounds quite fitting as a name for it.
Secondly, I'm interested in an end-game upgrade to decrease player respawn time either as a passive team-wide upgrade, or perhaps some sort of commander ability. For Aliens this upgrade would require at the minimum 3 Hives (and some X level of biomass), Marines may not even be given the upgrade.
The idea here is to speed up 'breaking the turtle' in games that end with Marines holding out in one base with walls and all that crap while Aliens control the rest of the map. This is why Marines may not get the upgrade, since they have ARCs. Sure it's not a problem in competitive play but it leads to many stale public games. I'd personally get a kick out of being able to overwhelm the last Marine bastion with never ending waves of units coming with increasing frequency. Depending on the implementation it may also lead to an NS2 version of Sauron Zerg (e.g. if it were a commander ability that could be 'turned on and off' and that drained rez while 'on').
It would help to sort out what is already suggested and also help swelek to easily see what new ideas are there without reading 5 new pages.
The problem lies with aliens requiring to much teamplay to break the marine base on public. The solution is to buff end game abilities so that aliens can easily win when they have a huge resource advantage (similar what marines can do). Extra limits should not be required.
I had a similar idea a while ago but I proposed making the cyst infestation range scale with alien map control. Maybe my idea of basing it on powernodes was not the right way, what about
Alien Cyst Radius = current radius * (1.5 raised to the power of (# of hives -1))
I like the Infestation speed idea... What if infestation creep was proportional to biomass so at full biomass 1 cyst infestation was 50% larger diameter... This way you could get infestation into bases without the cyst being as easy to snipe...
Also have cyst build speed inversely proportional to biomass so at full biomass cysts build 2x faster and creep spreads 2x faster
Or some other numerical factor for balance
Reverted some of the previous changes that were clearly too alien favored. The latest version is nerfing aliens in some aspects like
- tech progression speed (Biomass and upgrades are both researched in the Hive and thus compete for the research slot)
- RT cost
- Skulk HP
- Echo being a no-brainer
- less Drifters
- Clogs cost a small amout of pres
- longer respawn time
while buffing them in others like
- 4th Biomass on each Hive
- buffed Crag healing
- better Carapace on Onos
- Bone Shield makes a return
- better Drifter
- can build 2 more Clogs
I think the Crag and Onos changes should help a lot against marine turtles already, especially if the Onos can more easily tank damage for nearby Gorges with Bone Shield.
Technically it could already be done with 1 or 2 sneaky gorges, but I've never seen it happening yet.
Bio mass 9 might be more appropriat though.
Edit: Just to clarify the intention: It's not about the using the tunnel as entrance into the turtled base, but the fact that tunnels spread infestation if the other entrance is connected with a cyst.
That makes the tunnel a huge cyst, which you could use to echo your whips in.
A lot of players are not aware that you can use tunnels to grow harvesters. I often use this mechanic on veil to get cargo rt without cysting there and often people complain about missing cysts.
- aliens always profit from bio mass health (not only upgraded classes)
- gorge tunnels no longer require a research
- added evolution chamber, which hosts all life form upgrades
- pulse grenades have now a proximity detector
- cysts no longer attempt to connect to unconnected cysts when placing them
Mostly just fixing stuff that never should have got changed and maybe trying to fix the insane mess that the alien tech tree has become.