base busting really shouldnt involve onos. next time just try having the commgo in with a drifter following an even split of skulks and gorges and a lerk. lerk umbra, comm spam storm and hallucination and healing mist, skulks all xenocide, and gorges focus down ips. then skulks spawn again in 5 seconds from a forward base and keep xenociding again, or go gorge and focus down the ips... if they can't spawn in, you kinda just win.
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
Based on the rest of the system as it is today, it's a pro. If they didn't have tier 3 tech after losing all but 1 cc then the game would be over but it wouldn't be the end of the game.
Of course, with all the same givens for the aliens, losing all but the last hive means game over but not the end of the game.
Maybe that's part of the inherent asymmetry but it certainly doesn't make sense. I've had plenty of games lately where the aliens were pushed back to their last hive, surrounded by railguns sniping from range, and waiting impatiently for the inevitable arc train to show up.
*edit : not to target you, but i also love how many believe themselves, or some small circle of people, are the ones who aren't giving opinions, but rather facts. Both sides can easily be torn apart ad nauseum, seen as only unfounded opinion, and now you finally have a list in which debunk /resolve every single pro and con.
This whole *throws hands up in the air* "I won't be apart of something that's not vetted by only the most experienced!" gesture just seems like a cop out from having an actual organized debate on the manner by not willing to participate through elitist dismissal and exclusion.
This is something you run into on these forums constantly.
I don't understand why NS2 should be a unique snowflake in the sense that an uneducated opinion is just as valid as an educated opinion. And that is what we're offering, not facts but educated opinons based on experience and understanding of the game mechanics. Some understand them better than others, and make even better points. I know a lot of people who understand the game better than I do, and I respect their opinions to the point of changing my own views of the game when they make excellent points. If I was new to a game, I would never, ever even consider trying to have my inexperienced views affect the gameplay, as I wouldn't only assume, I would know that there are people who have been through the same questions and made decisions that are much more thought out than my gut feelings.
I could understand the point if the majority or great chunks of the playerbase think "x" even though they don't have the experience or understanding of what their proposed changes would actually cause, as not catering to them at all would cause the playerbase to diminish, which is not something I want. But we don't have that. We don't have a small group of experienced players saying A against a huge group of casual players saying B like many people crying "this will kill pub!" seem to think; we have a small group of experienced players saying A, B and C against a just as small group of casual players saying A, B, C, X, 2, Q, ^ and ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). That's why we have threads labeled "exo op" and "exo useless" on the same page almost on a daily basis. Even though many of the less-experienced players are claiming to speak for everyone at their skill level in a mysterious fit of self-righteousness, they're not. They're expressing their individual opinions, just like everyone else. The difference here is that one opinion is based on experience and understanding, while the other comes from either limited experience or no experience at all, and is subject to change as that individual's skill level and understanding rises. And I know which one of those I'm going to place more value on.
Yet people run around yelling that we can continue circle-jerking as much as we want but those one-liner, one-dimensional opinions represent how things are with the majority of the playerbase, i.e. the casual scene. Well, they bloody well don't. Unless you're able to pull off a game-wide unbiased poll, individual posts like that represent the inexperienced feelings of that single individual, feelings that are likely to change over and over again every time that individual learns a new trick or gimmick. If you want your opinion to have an impact, support it with arguments that tell other people why you think something should or shouldn't change, and as or more experienced people will then tell you why you're right or wrong, again supporting themselves with arguments stemming from experience. Everybody has the possibility to an equally viable opinion, but it's up to the arguments that individual uses whether anybody's going to take them seriously or not. And it so happens that experienced players tend to make more and and better arguments than inexperienced players, for obvious reasons. It's just an ad hominem in disguise to assume that a casual player's uneducated opinion is somehow more valuable than its face value because that player is "at the heart of the gameplay, having fun".
That's why I want to have discussions with people who understand the game. It's not about elitism and exclusion. It's about progress. Something that we won't achieve if the opinions of people who don't understand what they're saying or don't understand what they're told are considered as important as the rest. Statistics through polls would be different, but you won't get any real statistics through shopping list forum threads. Just individual opinions. If we're going to take every "fade OP please halve its health" comment as seriously as well-ruminated dissections based on experience, we're either not going to get anywhere or go somewhere very wrong.
I know this has very little to do with the topic and even with you. But this is so common on these forums that I had to rant on.
The problem is not so much that marines can get everything on 1 CC, it's that aliens MAXED out have absolutely no, zero, advantage over said marines. Surely we can all agree this is a major flaw in the current design. This wasn't so much of a problem in NS1, as more hives dramatically scaled the power of the aliens.
The problem is not so much that marines can get everything on 1 CC, it's that aliens MAXED out have absolutely no, zero, advantage over said marines. Surely we can all agree this is a major flaw in the current design. This wasn't so much of a problem in NS1, as more hives dramatically scaled the power of the aliens.
agree (pressing the "agree" button felt not enoug)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2013
@therius
I can agree with most of what you said, save for one thing : experience or skill does not automatically mean one understands game design or are necessarily good at it - nor are either a requirement beyond a certain point. (i.e. A person with 800 hours may only be more qualified than one with 400 hours to a negligible degree)
So that being said, the only real credible distinction past a point, is your argument.
And since there are SO many for this particular topic.. Its good to have them all written down for further dissection /discussion and debunking.
@xarius : ugh its difficult to refrain from discussion, hehe ... So let me ask a question instead : do you feel larger player counts factor in / could possibly offset the potential effectiveness of said suggested alien t3 abilities? Like 12 W3 marines concentrating fire on one spot impacting or even preventing said abilities from being used?
@therius
I can agree with most of what you said, save for one thing : experience or skill does not automatically mean one understands game design or are necessarily good at it - nor are either a requirement beyond a certain point. (i.e. A person with 800 hours may only be more qualified than one with 400 hours to a negligible degree)
So that being said, the only real credible distinction past a point, is your argument.
And since there are SO many for this particular topic.. Its good to have them all written down for further dissection /discussion and debunking.
Yes, and I of course understand that it works the other way also; experience doesn't guarantee understanding and skill. But it sure helps.
A player with lots of experience may not be good in game desing but he will have a more informed oppinion about the game balance and how the different mechanics interact with each other. For example a rookie marine will say cloak is imba when he (and/or his comm) doesn't know what a scan is. This is why pure democracy fails and what most of us (probably) are living in is a republic.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@bert0r :
Sure, of course.
But does that mean if inexperienced player A expresses a reaction that its automatically invalid? No. Build 250 taught us that some people just dislike change.. While that's not the most useful or insightful /educated feedback, you better believe its more than likely shaped how UWE balances the game going forward. (based on Hugh's posts) Therefore, all feedback should be allowed to be considered, and then debunked if invalid.
Also, who decides who is experienced and is capable of providing proper feedback? There is no standard, and worse, historically speaking human beings will qualify /approve other like minded people at a higher percentage... A pretty big bias and not very productive to the goal.
Hence : here is your raw and unfiltered feedback..
Ripe with gross inaccuracies and misdirected perceptions! Pick away, you few educated and qualified individuals, and let's see your own arguments at the same time. ;-)
(i do recognize and appreciate those who already have)
A player with lots of experience may not be good in game desing but he will have a more informed oppinion about the game balance and how the different mechanics interact with each other. For example a rookie marine will say cloak is imba when he (and/or his comm) doesn't know what a scan is. This is why pure democracy fails and what most of us (probably) are living in is a republic.
This is true and I agree that experienced players have a better understanding than noobs. However, if we're being correct, what you're proposing isn't a republic. Having the few uperclass (experienced players) control the balance of the game is actually an oligarchy. :P
The problem is not so much that marines can get everything on 1 CC, it's that aliens MAXED out have absolutely no, zero, advantage over said marines. Surely we can all agree this is a major flaw in the current design. This wasn't so much of a problem in NS1, as more hives dramatically scaled the power of the aliens.
^ This. Once the 3rd hive was up it was pretty much GG for the marines. Xeno also seemed to be more powerful then.
The problem is not so much that marines can get everything on 1 CC, it's that aliens MAXED out have absolutely no, zero, advantage over said marines. Surely we can all agree this is a major flaw in the current design. This wasn't so much of a problem in NS1, as more hives dramatically scaled the power of the aliens.
Agree with this as well. Also, in NS1 I could specifically target a jetpacker in base with focus (and *wait for it* USING SKILL) take him down with 2 swipes. Of course jetpacks in NS1 had much more acceleration so you could be outplayed as well. Any heavy armor guy (akin to exos) could be potentially devoured quickly if misplayed as well.
Instead, in NS2, we are left with what? As fade, my only option is to 5-swipe jetpackers and 12-swipe exos with a much clumsier fade, meanwhile having to somehow dodge the other 7 rifles in base while I continually swipe and run out of energy... Because of the gameplay and lifeform design of NS2, aliens only option is a brute force overwhelm option in order to break that turtle.
P.S I am not even going to bring up useful skills like metabolize or acid rocket from NS1... Shadowstep and vortex literally do nothing for me in this build.
The problem is not so much that marines can get everything on 1 CC, it's that aliens MAXED out have absolutely no, zero, advantage over said marines. Surely we can all agree this is a major flaw in the current design. This wasn't so much of a problem in NS1, as more hives dramatically scaled the power of the aliens.
Agree with this as well. Also, in NS1 I could specifically target a jetpacker in base with focus (and *wait for it* USING SKILL) take him down with 2 swipes. Of course jetpacks in NS1 had much more acceleration so you could be outplayed as well. Any heavy armor guy (akin to exos) could be potentially devoured quickly if misplayed as well.
Instead, in NS2, we are left with what? As fade, my only option is to 5-swipe jetpackers and 12-swipe exos with a much clumsier fade, meanwhile having to somehow dodge the other 7 rifles in base while I continually swipe and run out of energy... Because of the gameplay and lifeform design of NS2, aliens only option is a brute force overwhelm option in order to break that turtle.
P.S I am not even going to bring up useful skills like metabolize or acid rocket from NS1... Shadowstep and vortex literally do nothing for me in this build.
If FOCUS can't make a come-back, then the age old acid rocket may definitely be the logical and inevitable answer to the issue of a weak Fade vs. a Marine team turtling/concentrated in base.
do you feel larger player counts factor in / could possibly offset the potential effectiveness of said suggested alien t3 abilities? Like 12 W3 marines concentrating fire on one spot impacting or even preventing said abilities from being used?
How do you counter a Marine team concentrating fire? By having the other team/squad of Fades concentrating acid-rocket. I really see no other option. If numbers is an issue, then the number of Fades with acid rocket would address the issue, considering it's a splash-damage-based weapon.
I don't understand what the list is for then, we've already had 100 something patches of marine tech not being available on 1 CC, it lead to stifled game play revolving around holding 2 tech nodes at all costs while everything else was gravy and if marines lost the 2nd CC they attempted 2-3 sneaky PG or pushes and conceded. Mostly just conceded, it's not a stretch of the imagination to believe if the team is capable of losing something established they won't be able to re establish something harder.
Pros: Marines turtle for exos because it's the only way to win late game vs built up aliens.
Cons: Marines turtle for exos because it's the only way to win late game vs built up aliens.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Pros:
- More consistent with traditional RTS design
Many RTS's effectively allow you to tech up with just one base. I've frequently encountered RTS players as comm in NS2 so it'd be beneficial to have it be as similar to standard RTS design as possible.
the problem with this pro and con thing is the pro/con nature is subjective if it isn't a number
I'm reading the list and half the points could go in either section...
you have to somehow measure the importance of each point, and its likelihood, and how they all interact together
and you can't even do that because nobody knows what the game is going to be like in 2 months, and it's already a completely different meta in pubs vs. competitive
you might have more success proposing 2 or 3 suggestions to change the game and then compare them directly and concretely
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@scardybob : Added. (what if that rts player has to command for aliens?);)
@biz I agree. Pretty interesting to gauge people's viewpoints on the matter though, isn't it? What they view as a negative compared to what you do, personally. Shows that there are core difference in thought within the community to a higher degree than i anticipated. Bacillus hit the nail on the head in this regard, with his comment, if you ask me.
More intuitive/logical/realistic: Why do marines need multiple command stations when they only have one commander? Why does a 2nd Command Chair unlock new tech? I can accept that aliens need multiple hives because well they are aliens but since I am familiar with human technology I find this requirement ridiculous.
Allows marines to play more aggressive. Less bases > less marines required to defend> more aggression. Also allows for more efficient PG placement (key areas)
More intuitive/logical/realistic: Why do marines need multiple command stations when they only have one commander? Why does a 2nd Command Chair unlock new tech?
I can accept that aliens need multiple hives because well they are aliens but since I am familiar with human technology I find this requirement ridiculous.
I can accept that aliens need multiple hives because well they are aliens but since I am familiar with human technology I find this requirement ridiculous.
Oh well, whatever.
Well alien structures are intricately linked together with infestation. It's not hard to believe that the more hives there are, the stronger the alien presence becomes, is it?
I can accept that aliens need multiple hives because well they are aliens but since I am familiar with human technology I find this requirement ridiculous.
Oh well, whatever.
Well alien structures are intricately linked together with infestation. It's not hard to believe that the more hives there are, the stronger the alien presence becomes, is it?
They are called Tech Points not hive rooms for a reason, not simply because it sounds cool but to reflect the deal usage (alien/marine).
They could be Research server storage banks that need to be built there instead of 2nd CC's (same net effect) if that sits better with your logic.
Things could have remained as it was in NS1, marines could build anywhere and we referred to locations that hives were built as hive rooms.
But no the decision was made to limit CC's being built to same locations as hives, thus forcing marines and aliens to care about sharing the same space for things other than extractors.
This worked well with the 2nd CC for JP's and Exo's...marines could not simply achieve this tech on 1 CC no matter how long they could turtle.
Granted it still needed some restrictions on weapons and armour on top of that to deal with the still present turtles....but it forced more thought into marine tactics and spread them out a bit more (though with beacons and PG's...it was never for long (unless the whole team went Exo....)).
More intuitive/logical/realistic: Why do marines need multiple command stations when they only have one commander? Why does a 2nd Command Chair unlock new tech? I can accept that aliens need multiple hives because well they are aliens but since I am familiar with human technology I find this requirement ridiculous.
/Devil's Advocate
It is not an uncommon RTS mechanic to require certain structures to unlock certain units/abilities. Why does it become a stretch when it is in a different room?
I think, because the Command Center is not intuitive for a research structure. Even NanoShield feels weird on it. Most people would never get the idea to click on the CC because they don't suspect it to have another function beside being the command center for the com.
Or maybe thats just me. In fact many RTS have upgrades in the "main building". mhh...
Edit: Uh, also I see a clash here between pub and comp. I understand the arguments form the comp players. 2 bases does restrict marine tactics. But you also have to see the effect of "1 base" in pub games. And find a solution that caters to both. I tend to agree now, that splitting the end-game-tech to two CCs may not be the best solution.
Having a mechanic like: "You lose when you can't hold the second base." is as boring as "You lose when aliens get the 3rd hive."
Pros:
- More consistent with traditional RTS design
Many RTS's effectively allow you to tech up with just one base. I've frequently encountered RTS players as comm in NS2 so it'd be beneficial to have it be as similar to standard RTS design as possible.
I'd say being unique compared to RTSes is much more beneficial for NS2. The RTS/FPS hybrid doesn't really make a good RTS on its own. Comming is interesting because of the unique aspects it can provide. If I want to do the regular RTS stuff, there are dozens of games that provide a better experience than NS1 or NS2.
I can accept that aliens need multiple hives because well they are aliens but since I am familiar with human technology I find this requirement ridiculous.
Oh well, whatever.
Well alien structures are intricately linked together with infestation. It's not hard to believe that the more hives there are, the stronger the alien presence becomes, is it?
They are called Tech Points not hive rooms for a reason, not simply because it sounds cool but to reflect the deal usage (alien/marine).
They could be Research server storage banks that need to be built there instead of 2nd CC's (same net effect) if that sits better with your logic.
Things could have remained as it was in NS1, marines could build anywhere and we referred to locations that hives were built as hive rooms.
But no the decision was made to limit CC's being built to same locations as hives, thus forcing marines and aliens to care about sharing the same space for things other than extractors.
This worked well with the 2nd CC for JP's and Exo's...marines could not simply achieve this tech on 1 CC no matter how long they could turtle.
Granted it still needed some restrictions on weapons and armour on top of that to deal with the still present turtles....but it forced more thought into marine tactics and spread them out a bit more (though with beacons and PG's...it was never for long (unless the whole team went Exo....)).
I'm not advocating against techpoints, they prevent marines from the rather lame practice of relocating in a narrow room or even vent with even more narrow entrances and turtle like you have never seen in ns2. However, requiring "Research server storage banks" to produce weapons and in the future to boot when today, we can already 3D-print weapons from blueprints downloaded from the internet. That's just not logical or realistic - not believable.
I can accept that aliens need multiple hives because well they are aliens but since I am familiar with human technology I find this requirement ridiculous.
Oh well, whatever.
Well alien structures are intricately linked together with infestation. It's not hard to believe that the more hives there are, the stronger the alien presence becomes, is it?
They are called Tech Points not hive rooms for a reason, not simply because it sounds cool but to reflect the deal usage (alien/marine).
They could be Research server storage banks that need to be built there instead of 2nd CC's (same net effect) if that sits better with your logic.
Things could have remained as it was in NS1, marines could build anywhere and we referred to locations that hives were built as hive rooms.
But no the decision was made to limit CC's being built to same locations as hives, thus forcing marines and aliens to care about sharing the same space for things other than extractors.
This worked well with the 2nd CC for JP's and Exo's...marines could not simply achieve this tech on 1 CC no matter how long they could turtle.
Granted it still needed some restrictions on weapons and armour on top of that to deal with the still present turtles....but it forced more thought into marine tactics and spread them out a bit more (though with beacons and PG's...it was never for long (unless the whole team went Exo....)).
I'm not advocating against techpoints, they prevent marines from the rather lame practice of relocating in a narrow room or even vent with even more narrow entrances and turtle like you have never seen in ns2. However, requiring "Research server storage banks" to produce weapons and in the future to boot when today, we can already 3D-print weapons from blueprints downloaded from the internet. That's just not logical or realistic - not believable.
Hell, why do you have to research stuff in the first place? Shotguns were invented ages ago.
And why do we even use shotguns and not tanks? Hell, why don't we nuke the facility from orbit?
Or outnumber aliens until they have no chance?
I tell you why. It creates better gameplay, that's why.
So you agree with me that it makes no sense at all, thank you. Whether or not it improves the gameplay is what we are arguing over.
[trolling] I would like to add another pro:
Comments
Of course, with all the same givens for the aliens, losing all but the last hive means game over but not the end of the game.
Maybe that's part of the inherent asymmetry but it certainly doesn't make sense. I've had plenty of games lately where the aliens were pushed back to their last hive, surrounded by railguns sniping from range, and waiting impatiently for the inevitable arc train to show up.
Must have missed that
This is something you run into on these forums constantly.
I don't understand why NS2 should be a unique snowflake in the sense that an uneducated opinion is just as valid as an educated opinion. And that is what we're offering, not facts but educated opinons based on experience and understanding of the game mechanics. Some understand them better than others, and make even better points. I know a lot of people who understand the game better than I do, and I respect their opinions to the point of changing my own views of the game when they make excellent points. If I was new to a game, I would never, ever even consider trying to have my inexperienced views affect the gameplay, as I wouldn't only assume, I would know that there are people who have been through the same questions and made decisions that are much more thought out than my gut feelings.
I could understand the point if the majority or great chunks of the playerbase think "x" even though they don't have the experience or understanding of what their proposed changes would actually cause, as not catering to them at all would cause the playerbase to diminish, which is not something I want. But we don't have that. We don't have a small group of experienced players saying A against a huge group of casual players saying B like many people crying "this will kill pub!" seem to think; we have a small group of experienced players saying A, B and C against a just as small group of casual players saying A, B, C, X, 2, Q, ^ and ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). That's why we have threads labeled "exo op" and "exo useless" on the same page almost on a daily basis. Even though many of the less-experienced players are claiming to speak for everyone at their skill level in a mysterious fit of self-righteousness, they're not. They're expressing their individual opinions, just like everyone else. The difference here is that one opinion is based on experience and understanding, while the other comes from either limited experience or no experience at all, and is subject to change as that individual's skill level and understanding rises. And I know which one of those I'm going to place more value on.
Yet people run around yelling that we can continue circle-jerking as much as we want but those one-liner, one-dimensional opinions represent how things are with the majority of the playerbase, i.e. the casual scene. Well, they bloody well don't. Unless you're able to pull off a game-wide unbiased poll, individual posts like that represent the inexperienced feelings of that single individual, feelings that are likely to change over and over again every time that individual learns a new trick or gimmick. If you want your opinion to have an impact, support it with arguments that tell other people why you think something should or shouldn't change, and as or more experienced people will then tell you why you're right or wrong, again supporting themselves with arguments stemming from experience. Everybody has the possibility to an equally viable opinion, but it's up to the arguments that individual uses whether anybody's going to take them seriously or not. And it so happens that experienced players tend to make more and and better arguments than inexperienced players, for obvious reasons. It's just an ad hominem in disguise to assume that a casual player's uneducated opinion is somehow more valuable than its face value because that player is "at the heart of the gameplay, having fun".
That's why I want to have discussions with people who understand the game. It's not about elitism and exclusion. It's about progress. Something that we won't achieve if the opinions of people who don't understand what they're saying or don't understand what they're told are considered as important as the rest. Statistics through polls would be different, but you won't get any real statistics through shopping list forum threads. Just individual opinions. If we're going to take every "fade OP please halve its health" comment as seriously as well-ruminated dissections based on experience, we're either not going to get anywhere or go somewhere very wrong.
I know this has very little to do with the topic and even with you. But this is so common on these forums that I had to rant on.
agree (pressing the "agree" button felt not enoug)
I can agree with most of what you said, save for one thing : experience or skill does not automatically mean one understands game design or are necessarily good at it - nor are either a requirement beyond a certain point. (i.e. A person with 800 hours may only be more qualified than one with 400 hours to a negligible degree)
So that being said, the only real credible distinction past a point, is your argument.
And since there are SO many for this particular topic.. Its good to have them all written down for further dissection /discussion and debunking.
@xarius : ugh its difficult to refrain from discussion, hehe ... So let me ask a question instead : do you feel larger player counts factor in / could possibly offset the potential effectiveness of said suggested alien t3 abilities? Like 12 W3 marines concentrating fire on one spot impacting or even preventing said abilities from being used?
Yes, and I of course understand that it works the other way also; experience doesn't guarantee understanding and skill. But it sure helps.
Sure, of course.
But does that mean if inexperienced player A expresses a reaction that its automatically invalid? No. Build 250 taught us that some people just dislike change.. While that's not the most useful or insightful /educated feedback, you better believe its more than likely shaped how UWE balances the game going forward. (based on Hugh's posts) Therefore, all feedback should be allowed to be considered, and then debunked if invalid.
Also, who decides who is experienced and is capable of providing proper feedback? There is no standard, and worse, historically speaking human beings will qualify /approve other like minded people at a higher percentage... A pretty big bias and not very productive to the goal.
Hence : here is your raw and unfiltered feedback..
Ripe with gross inaccuracies and misdirected perceptions! Pick away, you few educated and qualified individuals, and let's see your own arguments at the same time. ;-)
(i do recognize and appreciate those who already have)
This is true and I agree that experienced players have a better understanding than noobs. However, if we're being correct, what you're proposing isn't a republic. Having the few uperclass (experienced players) control the balance of the game is actually an oligarchy. :P
Cons: It takes 30 minutes of boring turtle to get there. Annoying as an alien team that should have won.
I DO like the idea of only having JPs on 1 CC, though. Would hopefully get marines motivated to go expand somewhere rather than sit in base.
^ This. Once the 3rd hive was up it was pretty much GG for the marines. Xeno also seemed to be more powerful then.
Agree with this as well. Also, in NS1 I could specifically target a jetpacker in base with focus (and *wait for it* USING SKILL) take him down with 2 swipes. Of course jetpacks in NS1 had much more acceleration so you could be outplayed as well. Any heavy armor guy (akin to exos) could be potentially devoured quickly if misplayed as well.
Instead, in NS2, we are left with what? As fade, my only option is to 5-swipe jetpackers and 12-swipe exos with a much clumsier fade, meanwhile having to somehow dodge the other 7 rifles in base while I continually swipe and run out of energy... Because of the gameplay and lifeform design of NS2, aliens only option is a brute force overwhelm option in order to break that turtle.
P.S I am not even going to bring up useful skills like metabolize or acid rocket from NS1... Shadowstep and vortex literally do nothing for me in this build.
If FOCUS can't make a come-back, then the age old acid rocket may definitely be the logical and inevitable answer to the issue of a weak Fade vs. a Marine team turtling/concentrated in base.
How do you counter a Marine team concentrating fire? By having the other team/squad of Fades concentrating acid-rocket. I really see no other option. If numbers is an issue, then the number of Fades with acid rocket would address the issue, considering it's a splash-damage-based weapon.
Pros: Marines turtle for exos because it's the only way to win late game vs built up aliens.
Cons: Marines turtle for exos because it's the only way to win late game vs built up aliens.
- More consistent with traditional RTS design
Many RTS's effectively allow you to tech up with just one base. I've frequently encountered RTS players as comm in NS2 so it'd be beneficial to have it be as similar to standard RTS design as possible.
the problem with this pro and con thing is the pro/con nature is subjective if it isn't a number
I'm reading the list and half the points could go in either section...
you have to somehow measure the importance of each point, and its likelihood, and how they all interact together
and you can't even do that because nobody knows what the game is going to be like in 2 months, and it's already a completely different meta in pubs vs. competitive
you might have more success proposing 2 or 3 suggestions to change the game and then compare them directly and concretely
@biz I agree. Pretty interesting to gauge people's viewpoints on the matter though, isn't it? What they view as a negative compared to what you do, personally. Shows that there are core difference in thought within the community to a higher degree than i anticipated. Bacillus hit the nail on the head in this regard, with his comment, if you ask me.
Pros:
And now the number of both pros and cons are equal... where's Therius, i have to point something out to him! 0.0
Why not? Why should this work for hives?
Oh well, whatever.
Well alien structures are intricately linked together with infestation. It's not hard to believe that the more hives there are, the stronger the alien presence becomes, is it?
They could be Research server storage banks that need to be built there instead of 2nd CC's (same net effect) if that sits better with your logic.
Things could have remained as it was in NS1, marines could build anywhere and we referred to locations that hives were built as hive rooms.
But no the decision was made to limit CC's being built to same locations as hives, thus forcing marines and aliens to care about sharing the same space for things other than extractors.
This worked well with the 2nd CC for JP's and Exo's...marines could not simply achieve this tech on 1 CC no matter how long they could turtle.
Granted it still needed some restrictions on weapons and armour on top of that to deal with the still present turtles....but it forced more thought into marine tactics and spread them out a bit more (though with beacons and PG's...it was never for long (unless the whole team went Exo....)).
/Devil's Advocate
It is not an uncommon RTS mechanic to require certain structures to unlock certain units/abilities. Why does it become a stretch when it is in a different room?
Or maybe thats just me. In fact many RTS have upgrades in the "main building". mhh...
Edit: Uh, also I see a clash here between pub and comp. I understand the arguments form the comp players. 2 bases does restrict marine tactics. But you also have to see the effect of "1 base" in pub games. And find a solution that caters to both. I tend to agree now, that splitting the end-game-tech to two CCs may not be the best solution.
Having a mechanic like: "You lose when you can't hold the second base." is as boring as "You lose when aliens get the 3rd hive."
I'd say being unique compared to RTSes is much more beneficial for NS2. The RTS/FPS hybrid doesn't really make a good RTS on its own. Comming is interesting because of the unique aspects it can provide. If I want to do the regular RTS stuff, there are dozens of games that provide a better experience than NS1 or NS2.
I'm not advocating against techpoints, they prevent marines from the rather lame practice of relocating in a narrow room or even vent with even more narrow entrances and turtle like you have never seen in ns2. However, requiring "Research server storage banks" to produce weapons and in the future to boot when today, we can already 3D-print weapons from blueprints downloaded from the internet. That's just not logical or realistic - not believable.
Hell, why do you have to research stuff in the first place? Shotguns were invented ages ago.
And why do we even use shotguns and not tanks? Hell, why don't we nuke the facility from orbit?
Or outnumber aliens until they have no chance?
I tell you why. It creates better gameplay, that's why.
edit: Hell.
[trolling] I would like to add another pro: [/trolling]