FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
The tweaks involve some changes to vents and other shifts in layout. Vents might be fairly easy in any scenario, but shifting a corridor when it's greyboxed is a lot less hassle than when it's complex geometry + props + entities + lights.
I recently talked with Mendasp and Grissi about layout issues in Caged, and I do need to make some further alterations to avoid the OP nature of a few locations. In the meantime, I can always flesh out areas that I feel are fine, of course, but that will have to wait until I'm back home too.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2013
I agree, but it's going to happen, entire rooms and corridors are going to need to be shifted around. No matter who you talk to or even whatever testing is done before release. Unless you just make it Summit with a different skin I guess.
Obviously you want to limit the amount of reworking, I'm just impatient and have already really enjoyed the few 6v6s I've had on the map.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2013
Sure thing. They were 6v6 AU pug games. Nothing super highly coordinated.
Round 1: Aliens started in sewer, marines got early picks on upper sewer RT and a movement chamber. We quickly established 6 RTs with a win at double. Held double against another push and got a PG in Upper shipping. PG here lets you defend double and can nearly prevent all alien expansion up through the map or around double. Moved to shipping a few times to deny aliens 4 RTs and turtled to a pretty easy win.
Round 2: Aliens started in Sewer again, did an instant hive drop at vent > biomass upgrade > leap and denied early double. Got the hive up without contention and continued to deny double, aux and gen with early leap skulks and lerks.
Maybe not the most balanced of teams, but you did remind me of that PG spot in upper shipping. It's a brutal location.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Yeah, Upper Shipping is indeed one of those OP locations I mentioned.
Thanks for the report. This is the kind of stuff all custom mappers would love to hear - an overview of how the round went, and issues you noticed.
Anyone reading this who has had games on Caged is welcome to post their overview/issues. And not just for Caged, any of the other cutom maps need feedback like that.
Most recent Sunday playtest compilation. New patch, loads of greens from the sale and some of the regulars missing, so the matches are a bit daft all-round.
- Fix cysts going from sewer to upper sewer RT
- Double is just to damn important/strong. You cannot have a central position on the map that provides < 15 second access to alien hives & alien natural expansion and have it as a double RT node.
- Top side of map is very underplayed (it was like this in NS1 too though)
- Be nice if you could start texturing parts of the map that you know won't change. The parts you have textured look great
- There are some weird issues with going up stairs, you don't walk up them gracefully its like your colliding with something
Have you tried forcing cross spawns?
Gen <-> Sewer
Vent <-> Marine Spawn
Would allow more of the map to be played rather than completely focussed on the bottom half of the map. I know this is against NS1, but some variation is nice.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
@male_fatalities
Thanks man, great feeback. Had a rough day here in the hospital, so forgive my brief replies.
1. Cyst issue in Sewer - Upper Sewer
Noted.
2. Importance/OP nature of Central Processing
Am planning on altering areas around Central slightly. Aware of the issue though, will keep tinkering.
3. North half underplayed
That's a bit strange, this conflicts with my personal experience. I guess it depends on where aliens start, and the fact that if marines have Central, they can easily cut off the main Ventilation - Generator route on the east half of the map. In that case, same issue as above, and something I'm hoping to address as soon as my leg allows.
4. More textured areas
I have been doing so, making progress on the Satan's Butthole side, and will keep adding more.
5. Hobbly stairs
Mendasp gave me some tips in that regard recently, will fix all stairs for next build.
6. Cross spawns
I'm hesitant to change to this system. Like you mentioned, it's very different from the original NS1 version. I was okay with an expansion TP in Central (not in the least because of how often marines would relocate there), but completely different starts alter the identity/tradition/nostalgia/feels/etc.
So I think the main issue is the OP nature of Central/areas next to Central that might prevent action in the north, and have plans to address those, so I hopefully won't need to force cross spawns.
There, that was a lot less brief than I anticipated. Typing this took quite a while, mind. Thanks for your feedback, really appeciate it.
What happened to cysting? Oh god. Fix that!
Keep the spawn setup. I don't see how the map gets better with random Marine spawn.
Make center a TP again.
Double is too strong. Aliens get it, that might be ok, but if Marines get it, game over, too much free money and map control in one. One RT + TP makes it less desirable for Marines and as desirable for Aliens but with less spammy income and easier 2nd/3rd Hive.
Other than that, everything is good, it seems you have to start the non-greybox prettification process now
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited July 2013
I'm still in the hospital with no ETA on my release, so unfortunately I cannot fix the issue quickly. Ironically, the problem is probably really easy to fix, but I simply don't have access to my computer. As soon as I'm back home I'll try and release a fixed build before adding any other major changes to address layout issues.
You will have a lot of free time to map during your home recovery, won't you? At least something positive about this. I think I will have to get myself also some kind of injury, so I will be able to finally finish co_Core :-)
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Yeah, won't be able to go back to work until I can walk up stairs properly, so I'll be able to map in between physical therapy sessions.
On a side-note, I think I just sketched a nice-looking bit of corridor to use for those modular pieces that repeat throughout Caged. The hallways with the diagonal walls and the beam in the middle just above the marines' heads and the skulk hiding area above. It's used on the Stability-side entrance of generator and in Upper Shipping Access just outside Auxiliary Generator. See, whil I'm in the hospital I'm still working on Caged, just in a more sketchy/planning manner.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
And just now I completed a new sketch of Stability, bringing it further back to the original, still incorporating some of the new ideas I had for it, while it still work's for NS2. This stay in the hospital is starting to turn productive.
We should start a flaterectomy gaming-laptop kick starter!?! Any pledges? £1000- we get an alien ware laptop and if we get to £20,000 we can get him turned into Robo cop! I'd buy that for a dollar.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited August 2013
Aw, and I was gonna fix that cysting bug thursday night, you know. I just happened to get my foot crushed thursday afternoon which spoiled things. Next time try Arkanti's temp fix build. :P
EDIT: May as well include a status update. Seven weeks and three days in hospital. My leg has a titanium pin in it. My foot fractures are fused except for one. I cannot yet control ankle movement very much, but I am able to control my knee a good bit. The wires in my foot might come out in a week or two, I'll be updated on that plan pretty soon. No ETA on when I can go home yet.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited August 2013
A little update: if I can master the art of walking using crutches (two laps around the ward today) and going up and down stairs (as of yet unattempted), I can go home. This means I might be home the coming weekend, and if so, I can hopefully fix the cysting bug between Sewer (hive) and Lower Sewer (at last), and I'll probably include @Arkanti's fix to the stairs as well. Or just drop in stair props or something.
I have more changes in mind, but those might take some more time to do, so I will likely publish a new build with the changes above first, as a kind of really cold hot fix. I'm hoping to do this before the sunday night SCC map test, but no guarantees. I'm not even sure I'll be home then yet.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
At last, I'm home, so there's a new update. \o/
o Added new corridor named Bypass between Auxiliary Generator and Shipping Tunnels
o Changed vents in Sewer (hive) leading to Lower Sewer
o Added new vent from Sewer (hive) leading to Purification
o Added minor cover in corridor connecting Purification and Ventilation Access
o Closed off backdoor corridor to Central Processing from Ventilation Access (again), opened up the vent (also again)
o BURNED ALL FORKLIFTS
Comments
I recently talked with Mendasp and Grissi about layout issues in Caged, and I do need to make some further alterations to avoid the OP nature of a few locations. In the meantime, I can always flesh out areas that I feel are fine, of course, but that will have to wait until I'm back home too.
Obviously you want to limit the amount of reworking, I'm just impatient and have already really enjoyed the few 6v6s I've had on the map.
Round 1: Aliens started in sewer, marines got early picks on upper sewer RT and a movement chamber. We quickly established 6 RTs with a win at double. Held double against another push and got a PG in Upper shipping. PG here lets you defend double and can nearly prevent all alien expansion up through the map or around double. Moved to shipping a few times to deny aliens 4 RTs and turtled to a pretty easy win.
Round 2: Aliens started in Sewer again, did an instant hive drop at vent > biomass upgrade > leap and denied early double. Got the hive up without contention and continued to deny double, aux and gen with early leap skulks and lerks.
Maybe not the most balanced of teams, but you did remind me of that PG spot in upper shipping. It's a brutal location.
Thanks for the report. This is the kind of stuff all custom mappers would love to hear - an overview of how the round went, and issues you noticed.
Anyone reading this who has had games on Caged is welcome to post their overview/issues. And not just for Caged, any of the other cutom maps need feedback like that.
- Fix cysts going from sewer to upper sewer RT
- Double is just to damn important/strong. You cannot have a central position on the map that provides < 15 second access to alien hives & alien natural expansion and have it as a double RT node.
- Top side of map is very underplayed (it was like this in NS1 too though)
- Be nice if you could start texturing parts of the map that you know won't change. The parts you have textured look great
- There are some weird issues with going up stairs, you don't walk up them gracefully its like your colliding with something
Have you tried forcing cross spawns?
Gen <-> Sewer
Vent <-> Marine Spawn
Would allow more of the map to be played rather than completely focussed on the bottom half of the map. I know this is against NS1, but some variation is nice.
Thanks man, great feeback. Had a rough day here in the hospital, so forgive my brief replies.
1. Cyst issue in Sewer - Upper Sewer
Noted.
2. Importance/OP nature of Central Processing
Am planning on altering areas around Central slightly. Aware of the issue though, will keep tinkering.
3. North half underplayed
That's a bit strange, this conflicts with my personal experience. I guess it depends on where aliens start, and the fact that if marines have Central, they can easily cut off the main Ventilation - Generator route on the east half of the map. In that case, same issue as above, and something I'm hoping to address as soon as my leg allows.
4. More textured areas
I have been doing so, making progress on the Satan's Butthole side, and will keep adding more.
5. Hobbly stairs
Mendasp gave me some tips in that regard recently, will fix all stairs for next build.
6. Cross spawns
I'm hesitant to change to this system. Like you mentioned, it's very different from the original NS1 version. I was okay with an expansion TP in Central (not in the least because of how often marines would relocate there), but completely different starts alter the identity/tradition/nostalgia/feels/etc.
So I think the main issue is the OP nature of Central/areas next to Central that might prevent action in the north, and have plans to address those, so I hopefully won't need to force cross spawns.
There, that was a lot less brief than I anticipated. Typing this took quite a while, mind.
Keep the spawn setup. I don't see how the map gets better with random Marine spawn.
Make center a TP again.
Double is too strong. Aliens get it, that might be ok, but if Marines get it, game over, too much free money and map control in one. One RT + TP makes it less desirable for Marines and as desirable for Aliens but with less spammy income and easier 2nd/3rd Hive.
Other than that, everything is good, it seems you have to start the non-greybox prettification process now
On a side-note, I think I just sketched a nice-looking bit of corridor to use for those modular pieces that repeat throughout Caged. The hallways with the diagonal walls and the beam in the middle just above the marines' heads and the skulk hiding area above. It's used on the Stability-side entrance of generator and in Upper Shipping Access just outside Auxiliary Generator. See, whil I'm in the hospital I'm still working on Caged, just in a more sketchy/planning manner.
Now get back to working on Gash, you! :P
EDIT: May as well include a status update. Seven weeks and three days in hospital. My leg has a titanium pin in it. My foot fractures are fused except for one. I cannot yet control ankle movement very much, but I am able to control my knee a good bit. The wires in my foot might come out in a week or two, I'll be updated on that plan pretty soon. No ETA on when I can go home yet.
I have more changes in mind, but those might take some more time to do, so I will likely publish a new build with the changes above first, as a kind of really cold hot fix. I'm hoping to do this before the sunday night SCC map test, but no guarantees. I'm not even sure I'll be home then yet.
EDIT: missing half a sentence, damn medication.
^
But more !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
o Added new corridor named Bypass between Auxiliary Generator and Shipping Tunnels
o Changed vents in Sewer (hive) leading to Lower Sewer
o Added new vent from Sewer (hive) leading to Purification
o Added minor cover in corridor connecting Purification and Ventilation Access
o Closed off backdoor corridor to Central Processing from Ventilation Access (again), opened up the vent (also again)
o BURNED ALL FORKLIFTS