Fades

|DFA| Havoc|DFA| Havoc Join Date: 2009-08-07 Member: 68375Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 160
Fades are broken for pub play, and they have been for pretty much the entirety of release. I don't care if they are 'fine' in competitive play, that is not what this thread is about. I am also not talking about the lifeform explosion, this is about a single fade being a nigh unstoppable killing machine.

The marines in pub games have significantly lower average levels of accuracy and coordination than competitive players, so the argument that marines simply need to learn to play / aim or coordinate / pinch is not productive.

The argument that a given player will be equally deadly on marines with a JP/shotty/whatever as they are with a fade is false. I know many people who are merely decent or good marines, but are unstoppable as fades. I have witnessed fades with 100/0 KDs on multiple occasions, and the only reason it's not more common to see the numbers that high is the games end before they have a chance. If you know what you are doing as a fade, you simply rack up unlimited kills until the match is over. There is a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence to support this, and I would love to see the sponitor stats on fade KD ratios compared to everything else.

Furthermore, fades are able to operate far more independently and exert more map control than even the most skilled of individual marines. JP/Shotty marines need a regular influx of meds and ammo at the cost of t-res, exos need constant welding support. Jetpacks are comparatively easy to run down because of their limited fuel, and exos are easy to overwhelm because of their limited mobility. Jetpacks and exos also typically get introduced much later in the game than fades do.

From what I've seen, most people who defend fades do so because they like playing fades and don't want their favorite toy taken away. I think aliens would probably need to be tuned up in other areas to compensate for weaker fades, but the godmode absolutely needs to go.


Here come the flames.
«1345

Comments

  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    The biggest problem is stupid and dogmatic marine commanders blaming the team for not being able to kill the fades when he dropped the arms lab no earlier than at the 5 minutes mark.

    Going phase gates first means you will lose to fades. And to pretty much everything else as well.
    pearlykCragChristPaLaGi
  • |DFA| Havoc|DFA| Havoc Join Date: 2009-08-07 Member: 68375Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 160
    @Therius

    I still see late game marines with A3/W3, jetpacks, and shotties dying to fades all the time in pub games. The upgrades don't stop fades, it just means they can't be as reckless as when they pop while marines are still at A1/W0.
    IronHorseAurOn2
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    @Therius

    I still see late game marines with A3/W3, jetpacks, and shotties dying to fades all the time in pub games. The upgrades don't stop fades, it just means they can't be as reckless as when they pop while marines are still at A1/W0.

    I see the opposite, i.e. Texas Walker Fades walking into two shotties and grinding at one spot until they die. This is all anecdotal, and I'm feeling the exact opposite.

  • joederpjoederp Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165992Members Posts: 333
    I partially agree with you, in the sense that a good fade is pretty hard to take down - however, I will say this - two equally skilled team will not see fades wiping the floor with marines. Fade is much, much, much harder to play at the level you are describing compared to marines just being able to aim a shotgun. How do I know this? Because I am a moderately skilled player, I clean up noobs but I can't compete with pros - and I can tell you, its damn easy to kill a mediocre fade with a shotgun. On the other hand, its INCREDIBLY difficult for me to keep my fade alive against shotguns. I've been practicing and watching videos to improve my fade but I still cannot get crazy scores like you are describing if the marines have any aiming skill what so ever.
    Now, if I joined some noob server where people are aiming with touchpads on their laptop, sure maybe I could go 50:2 on there. I have personally shot down most of an alien teams fades (3 when they had 4) simply because I was one of the only marines who could actually shoot something thats right in front of your face.

    So I feel like the fade vs shotgun JP marine is fairly balanced, but if there is a skill gap on either side it will be very apparent.

    The part I agree with you on is how there is no penalty to not go fade - this is because the onos is a giant pile of sh*t right now and will go down instantly if a handful of marines shoot 1 mag into it. Its a 60-84 pres punching bag that breaks in half when you punch it twice.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    pearlyk wrote: »
    Lack of comm support + marines who can't aim well + extremely passive marine play in pubs = Early and immortal fade

    Pretty much hit the nail on the head.
    blindRisingSunfrantix
  • Warrior_of_katzWarrior_of_katz Join Date: 2013-08-12 Member: 186762Members Posts: 6 Fully active user
    They should increase the p-ress cost of evolving to a fade so that it takes a bit longer for the fade to get out into the field.
    I LOVE NS2, it's my all-time favorite game!
  • SanCoSanCo Join Date: 2012-08-18 Member: 155744Members Posts: 139
    Isnt there alrdy a topic on this.
    RisingSun
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members Posts: 415 Fully active user
    aliens are OP without fades too
    skulks can base rush with something like 95% success rate in pubs

    I can solo a base with 1 IP more than half the time and I'm not even good

    also, fades are a problem because marines can't fight them by the time they come out. the only option is turtling...
    you can't expect marines to attack by 6 minutes when they failed at attacking by 10 minutes before

    there was absolutely nothing done to help them in that regard.
    marine spawn time nerf.
    armory nerf.
    skulk speed boost.
    gorge cost decrease.

    welders are 1 res cheaper, but that changes nothing
    power surge exists, but that requires too much coordination


    it doesn't help that any half-decent player will have more casual fun going alien and fading than trying to struggle with marines and teamwork and no margin for error
  • RedDogRedDog Las Vegas Join Date: 2013-02-22 Member: 183267Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 553 Advanced user
    I skimmed read this, so sorry if someone suggested this already. How about swapping shadowstep and blink back? Blink being the 5 biomass upgrade and fades starting out with SS?
    Archive of Videos & Casts: http://www.YouTube.com/STINGRedDog
    Catch me LIVE here: http://www.Twitch.tv/REDDOGTV
    Follow me here for updates: http://www.Twitter.com/STINGRedDog
    Like me on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/REDDOGTV/518123291577718
    Join the RedDogTV Steam Community: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/REDDOGTV
    You can always email me at stingreddog on Gmail

    11:40 Xqnine: Sometimes I wonder what his wife thinks is happening while he is in yelling randomly at his computer
    11:40 Ps3ia: The most exciting porn ever
    Robby
  • NailoNailo Join Date: 2013-05-06 Member: 185138Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 158
    I'm curious as to when you posted this havoc. Was it before or after our match on Refinery? Also a point I would like to make is that this game has asymmetrical balance. Top that off with a wide variety of skill and age diversity ranging from the most casual of casuals, to the mid tier which isn't competitive but is definitely above the usual, and then there is the competitive players as well. I'm not even sure if it is possible to balance out a game when its fps aspect makes it entirely based upon the varying skills of its players.

    I'm honestly not sure how to go about nerfing the fade. I read somewhere that supposedly fades got a nerf to their speed last patch when blinking, not sure if it is the case but regardless. Nerfing the fade's hp much more than what it has is not something I'm a fan of, if only because right now all it takes is 2 full-on shotgun blasts to kill a fade.

    Perhaps I should be asking what your idea of what the fade should be is. As far as I've ever considered, I've always thought of as our fade being an assassin. As long as he keeps his enemies surprised or disoriented, he will, for the most part, always win. If the enemy knows he is coming, or stays in a group and has com support, the fade is going to have a much tougher time of it. In other words Fades are great at picking off marines without support, but cannot do well against large numbers or buildings.
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    RedDog wrote: »
    I skimmed read this, so sorry if someone suggested this already. How about swapping shadowstep and blink back? Blink being the 5 biomass upgrade and fades starting out with SS?

    If you're suggesting this without changing the way shadowstep works, then you might just as well remove fades from the game completely. A fade with nothing but the current shadowstep wouldn't be a match to a single w1a1 lmg marine. If you'd make shadowstep viable in travel again, i.e. pre-250, then I don't see the point.

    CragChrist
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Make attack speed slower. At least until marines get armor, I can swipe swipe before they even turn around. Even once they have some armor it goes swipe swipe marine reacts swipe dead.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • DjiloreiannDjiloreiann Join Date: 2013-07-04 Member: 185902Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 5
    I've always like the idea that perhaps fades take more damage from the back. Rendering retreat more dangerous for this in your face murdering machine.
    4920_screenshots_2013_07_02_00001.jpg
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    edited August 2013
    I repeat: A single fade isnt the problem. If so, the marines deserve to lose.
    Its the ammount of fades that pop up @ the same time.

    There only 2 options left in my opinion:
    Find a way to split the players pres (this would end in an more mixed alienteam)
    or
    Bind lifeforms more on biomass (this would end in an fadeball also, but a bit later and the fades would be weaker if biomass level is not high enough)

    All the other ideas like: Stronger shotguns, HMG, .. would have an impact on other lifeforms too.
    Imagine a stronger shotgun. This would end in threads like:
    "Skulk is useless now, 1 hit shotgun op"
    image
    soccerguy243
  • ColtColtColtColt Join Date: 2012-06-27 Member: 153707Members Posts: 131
    Massively raise the skill floor of fade in BT/250.

    Wonder why Fade becomes 'new' widespread pubstomping mechanic.

    It isn't much of a mystery, or a 'problem', it is the clear and predictable result of the changes to fade.

    -Colt
    CragChrist
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Posts: 1,194
    Yeah, maybe I'm always playing against bad marines when I'm alien, but a cele/regen Fade feels like a GOD, you're just outrageously fast, keep getting health all the time, just rocketboosting through the map taking swipes at stuff.

    Also, while they increased shotgun fire rate, they also nerfed the damage, soooo... No surprises Fades seem a little nuts right now.

    Dunno how to fix tho. Maybe reduce speed just a tiny bit?
    image
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    I dont think the fade need more skill than the pre 250 fade. It just need a bit time (a few hours) to learn the new blink mechanic. New players dint have to relearn the fade, they never played another one (maybe if they play the 240 mod).

    The sad story of 250/251 is: all the new possible ways end always in the same result: fadeball with umbra lerk.
    So the new options for the alien-com are just eyewash.

    Another sad story is that 250/251 is based on 3 month of community balancing.
    3 month to have over 80% alien wins in clanwars and around 65% on pub.
    If you keep that in mind some should rethink there ideas like: make * stronger and everything is fine. cause its not that easy.
    image
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    ColtColt wrote: »
    Massively raise the skill floor of fade in BT/250.

    Wonder why Fade becomes 'new' widespread pubstomping mechanic.

    It isn't much of a mystery, or a 'problem', it is the clear and predictable result of the changes to fade.

    -Colt

    Werent the people complaining b249 and before that fades were pubstomping also.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members Posts: 415 Fully active user
    dePARA wrote: »
    Another sad story is that 250/251 is based on 3 month of community balancing.

    not really. the community raised pretty much all the important issues, but the complaints were largely ignored

    and that's kind of excusable because this game is apparently still in beta there was lots of nonsense as well among the complaints

    the problem is they haven't fixed anything 2 months later...
    and it's a problem because this game isn't really in beta :(
  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 677 Advanced user
    edited August 2013
    james888 wrote: »
    ColtColt wrote: »
    Massively raise the skill floor of fade in BT/250.

    Wonder why Fade becomes 'new' widespread pubstomping mechanic.

    It isn't much of a mystery, or a 'problem', it is the clear and predictable result of the changes to fade.

    -Colt

    Werent the people complaining b249 and before that fades were pubstomping also.

    I believe that's what he meant by putting "new" in quotes. Making them more deadly for lower skill players has only exacerbated the issue.
    ColtColt
  • RaZDaZRaZDaZ Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167331Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 465 Fully active user
    edited August 2013
    I don't see this issue being easy to fix tbh. Any suggestion you can come up with without giving it considerable thought is just bound to have heavy implications that you couldn't predict in both pub and competitive play.
    The problem isn't fades, it's that many marines in public play are kind of getting the wrong impression on what they should be doing. Public marine play is usually: Cap to next tech point -> rush phase -> put phase in every tech point -> turtle to Proto while protecting my K/D -> "Where are my Exos, I need them to finish the game!"

    A lot of public players focus on getting RTs first instead of sending one group out to pressure. Many don't weld their teammates and the commanders seem to hate dropping meds/ammo even when the marines are deep in alien territory where they need them the most. Commanders think they have to rush phasegates for defense when their marines just need to hit their c key more often. All of these contribute to early fade domination by delaying upgrades, not delaying alien resflow for fades, and generally having weaker marines when the fades attack. Nowadays it's even worse because some comms will skip shotguns for the AA even when fades come out.

    @ BobRossTheBoss

    The problem isn't with commanders going phase at every tech point, I do that in most comm games. The problem is that as a pub commander, without phase, you're relying exclusively on your marines being able to think for themselves or follow your orders, have some communication from each other and have some level of skill. Teching up first sounds like a reasonable strategy and it is in comp play but in pubs, it's a fools errand. Then your team whines at you because you didn't get phase gates. Until we get whittled down to a community of mostly knowledgeable and hardcore players, that is never going to happen consistently.

    I'm not saying that every marine commander would rather tech up before phase but that if it was the better option in pub play, more would do it and more would catch on but it's just not. That style of strategy and build just isn't compatible holistically in pub play, the less risky and more stable option is the phase gate play. I would like to see it catch on more though, maybe it will get marine players to think for themselves and being more aggressive. It's just tough for average pubs to think like that, if they could, the fade problem imo would be drastically diminished.

    That's my theory anyway, I'll command some games and see if it can work consistently but I see it as being more frustrating than successful, most marines don't even know the map key and never use the bloody thing.
    NS2 ID: RaZDaZ
    Old School AvP2 Vet
  • AWhiteAWhite Join Date: 2007-07-26 Member: 61685Members Posts: 60
    I'd really like to see some detailed tests of hit reg on the blinking fade. It seems all over the place.

    I've one clipped + 2 pistoled a fade that was clearly the first time that played had ever faded, but I've also put an entire clip at a fade straight line blinking at me down a long draw and done maybe 60 damage before he killed me.

    The fade's ability to crouch should just be removed. I think this might be contributing to the hitreg strangeness, as the fade's position is snapping around as he grazes the ground before jumping faster than any animation blending can keep up.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    If a game is balanced around the 5% topshooter than the game isnt balanced.

    Im sure you have enough marines with aim and gamesense in clanwars. Why is the alien win ratio over 80% there?
    image
  • HivelordHivelord Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17567Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 140 Fully active user
    AWhite wrote: »
    I'd really like to see some detailed tests of hit reg on the blinking fade. It seems all over the place.

    I've one clipped + 2 pistoled a fade that was clearly the first time that played had ever faded, but I've also put an entire clip at a fade straight line blinking at me down a long draw and done maybe 60 damage before he killed me.

    The fade's ability to crouch should just be removed. I think this might be contributing to the hitreg strangeness, as the fade's position is snapping around as he grazes the ground before jumping faster than any animation blending can keep up.

    Its possible you are hitting the blue cloudish ink effect that is created when the fade blinks away.
    E t e r n o . n z
  • Know painKnow pain Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157674Members Posts: 510 Fully active user
    If you think that 1 fade can’t own an entire marine team then you clearly have not been playing pub games. I’ve seen pro players actually stay away from fades for fear or being kicked or banned for pub stomping. But in many case around the 6-7 min mark fades pop up and begin to either harass or dominate the marine team depending on their coordination.

    If a player has halfway decent skill as a fade it’s clear why they would want to go fade. They have access to blink right off the bat when they should only have shadow step. For marines that can’t hit the broad side of a barn they have no problems hitting an onos but don’t have a chance in hell hitting a fade.
    Hakuna Ma-ta-ta
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    Okay, so let's start balancing for
    Know pain wrote: »
    If a player has halfway decent skill as a fade
    vs
    Know pain wrote: »
    marines that can’t hit the broad side of a barn

    and the game will be fixed. Thanks for your insight.
    kalakuja
Sign In or Register to comment.