I feel like ARCs have a place but need to be tweaked more to fit all the changes. Now that Exos are more viable and with the Advanced Arms changes along with the Crag de-buff you just don't need them in their current form.
LOS would fundamentally change the role of ARCs, and would make them even more redundant to all the Marine Tech listed above.
I feel like everything else remaining where it is (crags, unit cap, etc.) there are a couple things that could be tried to make ARCs a more viable strategy.
Lower Build Time Significantly, and Reduce Power: Make is so you need more to be effective but make it easier to get more on the field. This would make forgoing upgrades for an ARC rush a little more realistic because you don't burn as much time building, but I think to balance the change dropping the power slightly would need to happen.
Robofactory doesn't need to be upgraded: again this would help with the ARC Rush Strategy
Massive Damage and Cost Increase: Go in the other Direction, Make the thing twice the size, twice the cost, and twice the power, but make it just as slow off Infestation. A single Rolling Death Machine that needs to be scouted and dealt with, or you are screwed. This might push it into an even more obsolete slot but it also might make it a viable alternative to upgrades all together.
In short I don't really know what needs to be done but in answer to the OP, yeah I feel like they are really redundant right now. A hold over from Pre-Exo viability that have gotten less and less useful as updates have occurred. I would love to see something done because I love having more options and the Idea of the non-LOS siege engine adds a lot more to Alien Defense.
ARCs are probably a relict from the times where Crags where actually able to heal a decent amount of damage and allowed aliens to actually have a durability advantage in their base. You kinda needed ARCs to break through some stacked Crag turtles.
But ever since Crags don't stack anymore, got their healing amount nerfed into oblivion, cost 15 population units (Shade and Shift only cost 10 while being a lot more helpful), are disabled by Flamethrowers and can't be protected by Whips against Grenade Launcher spam, there really is no reason anymore to set up an expensive siege instead of having your marines clear out the Hive, other than for the lulz. Plus Shade Ink actually works against ARC targeting now, so there is even less reason to use them. And since the population limit nerfed alien base defenses into oblivion as well, there is even less of a turtle issue now.
The population limit costs are also way off on alien side compared to the marines. Marines will barely ever run into population cap troubles whereas aliens barely have enough to plant one of each chamber at three Hives. There was a time in BT where the cap actually depended on the number of controlled tech points (100 per TP), rather than having a flat 200 from the start. It also gave marines a reason to actually capture a second CC.
I think this, and the OP, is like saying there is no use for butter because you can just use margarine. It's just bad reasoning. While you can certainly use both, it does not mean one is obsoleting the other. They both have different uses, benefits, and disadvantages.
ARCs shoot through walls, mess with alien target priority, provide that extra hp buffer to 'marine threat', force gorges, and have always been useful at forcing advantage in equally matched alien defense. They also ensure your marines can focus on killing alien players with more concentration of actual player killing weapons (lmg/sg). Think about this. a) When marines do not arc and only use ft/gl
Aliens counter by killing all marines and then camping the phasegate. This is easier than if the marines were all using only lmg/sg and exo if relevant timing. b) When marines arc and use more sg/lmg
Aliens counter by killing all marines, and then the arcs. It is harder to kill all the marines and camp the phasegate, you need to have a gorge, you need to protect that gorge, and then you need to spend additional time killing the arcs (which just get welded back up to square 1 if you fail to clear the marines).
The point of ARCs is not always to break turtles. The real benefits they construe are there regardless of whether or not there is an alien turtle to break. Infact, i would rather there not be any other structures in a hive room i am sieging, so that the ARC damage (which is actually alot) can more efficiently do its job and limit my team's exposure to things like RT biting and alien pres accumulation.
In most circumstances, ARCs have always been the quicker, relatively less risky RTS option to just continually marching your marines in and hoping you somehow win. Why would you want to fully depend on your marines to clutch kill all lifeforms and structures, when you can help simplify that burden for pretty cheap? Sure, i can spend 10 minutes spamming meds and wait for my marines to eventually wear them out if ever (all while rt's keep needing to be recapped). But why do you want to do this when you can just finish the game cleanly and efficiently? Cover the arcs and wait for less than a minute - it's simple.
Also realise that the current pub metagame undervalues early-midgame timing ARCs when trying to win and keep momentum. Especially with phasegates as cheap as they are. I see 2nd CC + sentries into a3/mac/exo all the time with these defensive phasegate turtles and just sigh to myself, knowing the res could have been spent on ARCs that would have finished the game 30 minutes earlier at a vulnerable alien timing pre-bilebomb. You know, a game that actually stays mentally stimulating from beginning to end.
That you are bringing up 15 food cost as a consideration says something about how the timings and potential power of ARC use have been misunderstood in general.
As for FT/GL, It is not efficient to solely rely on these to end games, and where this is true the reason is actually an underlying bad mechanic or imbalance that should hopefully be fixed/removed. Some of them you have identified.
1) Ink blocking arc targeting
2) Flamethrower stopping hive heal
3) Flamethrower multi-target aoe cone that effectively goes through alien players like a railgun
4) Short AA research time
5) Overly slow arc move speed, instead of 'marine e deploying arc' feature.
6) GL power (already rectified quite a bit)
All in all do I miss the old times where aliens could actually have a base that was worth sieging.
TL;DR
ARC play is actually stronger post b250 than it ever was pre b250. It is ridiculously cheaper, much quicker to get, and much more viable to phasegate combo with some very fast timings. ARC value is not tied solely to ability to alien turtle
It's really frustrating to see commander after commander unable to understand how efficient arcs are at taking down hives and winning games. It's like all they can see is this phasegate/CC/sentry spam. Then lean back and eat some popcorn while watching marines battle it out like some movie.
I have to say, the average level of RTS execution within NS2 has consistently been very undeveloped and inefficient, even up through quite a few competitive teams. There are not many scrajm's out there, and it's a shame we as the community don't get more exposure and solid commentary insight of those skill levels to help develop and explore the RTS 'metagame'.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
@amoral
Agreed. Hardly see forward bases now (may be a shade here and there), and a shift for energy around a hive. Crags are just not worth the effort or res. I don't mind the slow heal rate, if it can be stacked (up to 2 or 3). That way, IT IS a strategic decision (make a crag nest and delay upgrade or go upgrade and make lifeforms go back to hive to heal). As it is, Crags are so crappy, no one bothers putting one down in a forward base (except may be late game when you are trying to break a turtle).
Arc’s seem to be more like an overkill method now since alien defenses have been nerfed into oblivion. Isn’t the whole idea behind the arcs is to siege an area out that you couldn’t take out with a normal attack.
As a commander i quite enjoy using ARCs and it gives me a lot more strategies to play with. Just for example.
In those situations where you are base locked, a couple of ARCs can really save your ass. Wipe out the healing and defensive structures, or the tunnel. and it can give your team a valuable opportunity to push back and take some territory.
It allows me to attack multiple locations, i can have my main force occupying the aliens while my autonomous units, backed up by a couple of players + macs can attack another.
But i suppose the response will be 'bah, pithy pub play'
This is how it should be. The availability of ARCs and similar weapons is what made this game unique and fun. Where else can you play with jps, exos, flamers etc.? Now we have alien-obsessed forum regulars asking for flamers and ARCs to be removed. Pro play isn't much to write home about anyway.
There are so many of these useless threads on this forum it's getting rather tiresome. Maybe I should start one entitled "Does NS2 really need a forum?"
By continually removing elements of the game, you are just dumbing down to deathmath. Why stop at ARCs? Let's just get rid of every unit and weapon, and stick to marine vs. skulk. Here's the rationale: Get rid of the observatory (since drifters aren't cloaked anymore, only fair); welders can damage cysts so best to get rid of that and let armories heal armor again; since that will be OP if marine comm can also drop health directly on a player whereas alien comm can only mist or mucus over a nonspecific area - remove medpack/ammo drops; macs allow marines to build stuff without a marine being present so stop macs; what's the point of killing the power node if comm can do emergency power - remove that; jps mean fades have a harder time killing marines - cut both out; a skulk at a marine's feet should not be hindered by those OP shotguns - no more shotties thanks; aliens don't get any "weapon levels" as such and marine armor upgrades cost more than full carapace upgrade - remove arms lab and shells. (I could go on but I think most of the remaining points are covered in whiny forum posts already)
I found that many times an arc would come in as a necessary tool when used to get into a hive that had enough whips to prevent gl’s from doing damage. Now with the healing rate of crags at close to 0 and the exo long range and extreme damage, arc’s don’t have a real reason anymore. Many other times I would use the arc to shoot thru walls because of the fear of bile bomb, that’s not the case anymore.
On a side note if you’re going to remove the invisibility for the drifters (even though that was their main point) bring back the scent of fear when marines were on creep. Or bring back the true parasite so that it would last forever until that marine died and parasite worked on buildings until that building was destroyed.
If you think that’s unfair why was the range of the observatory increased but the range of the shade decreased?
Heh, it's actually pretty ridiculous when you think about it. BILE isn't scary anymore, CRAG healing power is horrible, WHIPS don't deflect grenades... There just isn't anything to frighten marines in a hive anymore.
Comments
LOS would fundamentally change the role of ARCs, and would make them even more redundant to all the Marine Tech listed above.
I feel like everything else remaining where it is (crags, unit cap, etc.) there are a couple things that could be tried to make ARCs a more viable strategy.
Lower Build Time Significantly, and Reduce Power: Make is so you need more to be effective but make it easier to get more on the field. This would make forgoing upgrades for an ARC rush a little more realistic because you don't burn as much time building, but I think to balance the change dropping the power slightly would need to happen.
Robofactory doesn't need to be upgraded: again this would help with the ARC Rush Strategy
Massive Damage and Cost Increase: Go in the other Direction, Make the thing twice the size, twice the cost, and twice the power, but make it just as slow off Infestation. A single Rolling Death Machine that needs to be scouted and dealt with, or you are screwed. This might push it into an even more obsolete slot but it also might make it a viable alternative to upgrades all together.
In short I don't really know what needs to be done but in answer to the OP, yeah I feel like they are really redundant right now. A hold over from Pre-Exo viability that have gotten less and less useful as updates have occurred. I would love to see something done because I love having more options and the Idea of the non-LOS siege engine adds a lot more to Alien Defense.
ARCs shoot through walls, mess with alien target priority, provide that extra hp buffer to 'marine threat', force gorges, and have always been useful at forcing advantage in equally matched alien defense. They also ensure your marines can focus on killing alien players with more concentration of actual player killing weapons (lmg/sg). Think about this.
a) When marines do not arc and only use ft/gl
Aliens counter by killing all marines and then camping the phasegate. This is easier than if the marines were all using only lmg/sg and exo if relevant timing.
b) When marines arc and use more sg/lmg
Aliens counter by killing all marines, and then the arcs. It is harder to kill all the marines and camp the phasegate, you need to have a gorge, you need to protect that gorge, and then you need to spend additional time killing the arcs (which just get welded back up to square 1 if you fail to clear the marines).
The point of ARCs is not always to break turtles. The real benefits they construe are there regardless of whether or not there is an alien turtle to break. Infact, i would rather there not be any other structures in a hive room i am sieging, so that the ARC damage (which is actually alot) can more efficiently do its job and limit my team's exposure to things like RT biting and alien pres accumulation.
In most circumstances, ARCs have always been the quicker, relatively less risky RTS option to just continually marching your marines in and hoping you somehow win. Why would you want to fully depend on your marines to clutch kill all lifeforms and structures, when you can help simplify that burden for pretty cheap? Sure, i can spend 10 minutes spamming meds and wait for my marines to eventually wear them out if ever (all while rt's keep needing to be recapped). But why do you want to do this when you can just finish the game cleanly and efficiently? Cover the arcs and wait for less than a minute - it's simple.
Also realise that the current pub metagame undervalues early-midgame timing ARCs when trying to win and keep momentum. Especially with phasegates as cheap as they are. I see 2nd CC + sentries into a3/mac/exo all the time with these defensive phasegate turtles and just sigh to myself, knowing the res could have been spent on ARCs that would have finished the game 30 minutes earlier at a vulnerable alien timing pre-bilebomb. You know, a game that actually stays mentally stimulating from beginning to end.
That you are bringing up 15 food cost as a consideration says something about how the timings and potential power of ARC use have been misunderstood in general.
As for FT/GL, It is not efficient to solely rely on these to end games, and where this is true the reason is actually an underlying bad mechanic or imbalance that should hopefully be fixed/removed. Some of them you have identified.
1) Ink blocking arc targeting
2) Flamethrower stopping hive heal
3) Flamethrower multi-target aoe cone that effectively goes through alien players like a railgun
4) Short AA research time
5) Overly slow arc move speed, instead of 'marine e deploying arc' feature.
6) GL power (already rectified quite a bit)
TL;DR
ARC play is actually stronger post b250 than it ever was pre b250. It is ridiculously cheaper, much quicker to get, and much more viable to phasegate combo with some very fast timings. ARC value is not tied solely to ability to alien turtle
It's really frustrating to see commander after commander unable to understand how efficient arcs are at taking down hives and winning games. It's like all they can see is this phasegate/CC/sentry spam. Then lean back and eat some popcorn while watching marines battle it out like some movie.
I have to say, the average level of RTS execution within NS2 has consistently been very undeveloped and inefficient, even up through quite a few competitive teams. There are not many scrajm's out there, and it's a shame we as the community don't get more exposure and solid commentary insight of those skill levels to help develop and explore the RTS 'metagame'.
Agreed. Hardly see forward bases now (may be a shade here and there), and a shift for energy around a hive. Crags are just not worth the effort or res. I don't mind the slow heal rate, if it can be stacked (up to 2 or 3). That way, IT IS a strategic decision (make a crag nest and delay upgrade or go upgrade and make lifeforms go back to hive to heal). As it is, Crags are so crappy, no one bothers putting one down in a forward base (except may be late game when you are trying to break a turtle).
This is how it should be. The availability of ARCs and similar weapons is what made this game unique and fun. Where else can you play with jps, exos, flamers etc.? Now we have alien-obsessed forum regulars asking for flamers and ARCs to be removed. Pro play isn't much to write home about anyway.
There are so many of these useless threads on this forum it's getting rather tiresome. Maybe I should start one entitled "Does NS2 really need a forum?"
By continually removing elements of the game, you are just dumbing down to deathmath. Why stop at ARCs? Let's just get rid of every unit and weapon, and stick to marine vs. skulk. Here's the rationale: Get rid of the observatory (since drifters aren't cloaked anymore, only fair); welders can damage cysts so best to get rid of that and let armories heal armor again; since that will be OP if marine comm can also drop health directly on a player whereas alien comm can only mist or mucus over a nonspecific area - remove medpack/ammo drops; macs allow marines to build stuff without a marine being present so stop macs; what's the point of killing the power node if comm can do emergency power - remove that; jps mean fades have a harder time killing marines - cut both out; a skulk at a marine's feet should not be hindered by those OP shotguns - no more shotties thanks; aliens don't get any "weapon levels" as such and marine armor upgrades cost more than full carapace upgrade - remove arms lab and shells. (I could go on but I think most of the remaining points are covered in whiny forum posts already)
That'll be fun.
On a side note if you’re going to remove the invisibility for the drifters (even though that was their main point) bring back the scent of fear when marines were on creep. Or bring back the true parasite so that it would last forever until that marine died and parasite worked on buildings until that building was destroyed.
If you think that’s unfair why was the range of the observatory increased but the range of the shade decreased?
But if the Fade Army is fighting in the hive it sounds to me like the Marines are winning. How can the Marines be winning if there is a Fade Army?
/sarcasm